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Tinto Maps #4 - 31th of May 2024 - Poland, Ruthenia, Baltic

Hello everyone, and welcome to the fourth Tinto Maps! The feedback that we've received so far has been great, and there will be news soon regarding the map fixes that we've already done.

This week we are showing you Poland, Lithuania, Ruthenia, and the Baltic region. Let’s check it with no further ado:

Countries
Countries.jpg

A bigger picture of what’s going on in this region today, as we hadn’t shown it entirely before. To the west, the Kingdom of Poland is ruled by Casimir III of the House of Piast. It is not a completely unified kingdom, as there are several powerful vassals under him, most of them also Piasts themselves.

To the east, the Duchy of Lithuania is ruled by Gediminas, who has greatly expanded the influence of the country into Russian lands (side note: Gediminas entitled himself in his diplomatic correspondence ‘king’, but was considered by the Pope ‘king or duke’, and the title of Grand Duke wouldn’t be formally adopted until later [most likely replicating the Russian title ‘Grand Prince’]. That’s why Lithuania starts as a Duchy, although it will have an event that would make it possible to adopt the dynamic country name of ‘Grand Duchy’).

To the south, the principalities of Kyiv and Galicia-Volhynia have recently fallen under foreign influence, the first ruled by Theodor, brother of Gediminas of Lithuania; and the second by Yuri II, also from the Piast dynasty.

To the north, the Teutonic and Livonian Orders, which conquered the lands of Prussia and Livonia a century ago, are at war against Poland and Lithuania, after a long-established rivalry.

Also, a side note: we will talk about Moldavia in the Tinto Maps devoted to the Carpathian region, as it’s currently in a ‘placeholder’ spot.


Diplomacy.jpg

A new map mode, the Diplomatic one! The game starts with an ongoing war between Poland, Lithuania, and their respective vassals, on one side, and the Teutonic and Livonian Orders, and Bohemia and its vassals, on the other.

Locations
Locations.jpg

Here you have the locations of Poland, Lithuania, Ruthenia, and the Baltic region. Some issues that have already been reported by our Polish coworkers are the inconsistencies in the location naming in Polish (we’ll use proper Polish letters more thoroughly), and we’ve also started to review both the Polish and Baltic locations based on the early feedback you gave us. Oh, also, the Vistula and Curonian Lagoons missing is a bug, we’ll properly re-add them while doing the map review.

Provinces
Province.jpg

Any suggestions for provincial naming are pretty welcome, as in the last DD!

Terrain
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg


Cultures
Cultures.jpg

The Baltic lands have an interesting mix of different cultures. ‘Western Baltic’ culture represents the people speaking a West Baltic language (Old Prussians, Yotvingians, Curonians, etc.), while ‘Prussian’ is the culture of the German settlers of that area; on that style, we have a ‘Baltic German’ culture in the lands of Livonia and Estonia that also got settled by German-speaking people. The divide between Polish, Ruthenian, and Aukstaitian might be too deep, so we will most likely add a bit more mixed situation in the borders between these cultures.

Religions
Religions.jpg

A region with a more interesting religious setup! Apart from the Catholic-Orthodox divide, you can also see the Romuva religion, which was a hot topic in 1337 (shall the Dukes of Lithuania convert to Catholicism, or stay Pagan?). Red stripes to the north are other Animist populations. Also, disregard the Sunni region to the southeast, as we have to review all the pops of the Pontic Steppes, as well.

Raw Goods
Raw Goods.jpg

From the distribution of the materials, maybe a couple of things might catch your eye. The first is that there’s an Amber good present on the shores of the Baltic Sea. The second is that the Tatra Mountains, in Slovakia, have a bunch of precious metals, which makes them a very interesting area to exploit and develop.

Population
Pops.jpg

Pops 2.png

The population of the region is divided into country and location views. Two notes: The total population of Estonia is not 711K people, that’s the total for its owner, Denmark. Second, we’ve read your feedback regarding the population map mode, and we’ll take a look at how to improve the visualization of the data, making it better for you.

EDIT: Markets
Markets.jpg

And that’s all for today! The region that we'll show next week is Italy! Cheers!
 
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back to isms are we
Assuming you mean "Catholicism" vs "Catholic" in the mapmode, we have changed it to the adjectival "Catholic". This screenshot was just taken on a version without all the changes.

The vassals seem to have a different color depending on their degree of autonomy, right ?
No the map color doesn't have any indication of autonomy. They are just different so you can tell the difference between them.
 
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What is amber for? Is it just a sort of luxury good? I'm not familiar with any production processes that use amber, but I'm not well-versed in pre-industrial economies.
It might be used in a building that @Johan might show in a Saturday Building.
 
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And on the topic of the war, that's some serious licencia poetica to have a 2v2 between Poland-Lithuania and Bohemia-Teutonic Order in 1337. There was no war between Poland and Teutons at the time, and in that year specifically there was no conflict between Poland and Bohemia (that was the main point of Visegrád Congress). There would later be conflict along those lines, absolutely, but not in 1337. I'm not sure what that starting conflict is supposed to represent exactly, and I expected something more along the line of Situations you've mentioned two days ago.
Exactly that, I would rather have a series of events, that would allow Poland to start a minor conflict year later, as there was no active war at that period, just like there was no official peace.
 
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And, maybe advancing before the Carpathian map, There will also be county names in Hungarian? The current names are Slovak but it is a bit harder to compare with older maps.

I've particularly enjoyed Szepes county being split in two, so you can have this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seat_of_the_10_Lance-bearers . Or maybe it allow to the division Szepes suffered due to a pawn with Poland (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Province_of_11_Szepes_Towns vs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Province_of_13_Szepes_Towns). It may be a small touch of flavour for the Polish-Hungarian relationship.
 
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Why theres no Vistula Spit, Hel Peninsula and Curonian Spit? Also i believe that lagoon itself was bigger at the time
Edit: Okay apperently i didnt noticed that Spits are not there becuase of bug but please consider map below when making lagoon
1717164687438.png
 
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I believe this was pointed out when Johan first showed a map of it but the locations in Livonia are wrong
View attachment 1141184View attachment 1141185
I have to say I agree and I think it would be wise to have location borders match these borders and future ones too as close as possible. It would be nice. I mean it would also be more consistent with other parts of the map, like for example Greece or Silesia as shown. Considering the amount of locations these 2 regions have I think that more accurate Baltic is not only possible but also very much desirable. It doesn't have to be perfect but I think 90% can be implemented.
 
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1717164379147.png


Wizna is not located where it is IRL and instead encompases majority of neighbouring Ziemia łomżyńska.

1717164604073.png


To solve this problem Wizna should be renamed to Łomża and Goniądz to Wizna, as the latter was more important.
 
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I have a question will we be able to rename locations and provinces, cuz sometimes I like to do more immersive games and rename everything like playing in Germany giving German names to stuff I conquer, or are they fixed and cannot be changed?
 
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I know the map is focused on Poland and lands north and east of it, but as a Czech, I have inevitably steered my eyes on the little Lands of the Bohemian Crown we can see on the map, and I'd like to propose a few improvements there.

Firstly, the location of Přeřov should be called Přerov. The ˇ is only above the first R in the name of the town.

As for provinces, I propose diacritic changes - Posazavsko should be Posázavsko, Brnensko should be Brněnsko and Hradistsko should be Hradišťsko.

As a final note, I'm a bit sad to see wine red Livonian Order from EU4 go... but I appretiate that South Moravia retains its wine though!
 
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Rather curious about the war at the start and how it'll be represented in game. Because IRL by 1337 the fighting has already stopped and the nations were just in a drawn out peace process with multiple summits and papal judgments.
 
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I have a question will we be able to rename locations and provinces, cuz sometimes I like to do more immersive games and rename everything like playing in Germany giving German names to stuff I conquer, or are they fixed and cannot be changed?
It is possible to rename locations in-game, yes.
 
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I have a question will we be able to rename locations and provinces, cuz sometimes I like to do more immersive games and rename everything like playing in Germany giving German names to stuff I conquer, or are they fixed and cannot be changed?
Even better than renaming would be a more fledged out dynamic system, while we should have both dynamic always feels better as a player than manual.
 
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Tarnów should be renamed to Bochnia. Tarnów at the time had just received city rights and was a pretty insignificant town, while Bochnia had had an important salt mine for almost a century at that point and was a comparably more important town with defensive walls, a town hall and even a hospital.

Zakopane should also be renamed to Nowy Targ. The first sources mentioning Zakopane are from the 16th century.
 
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No, they're independent orders.
But they should be a form of a vassel since they original order = Livonian Brothers of the Sword been offical integrated into the Teutonic order in 1237 and the formal split up only happend after the the lose of the teutons in 1410.

So in 1337 they should be still a form of subject. Maybe be a autonomus one who is tied to the main country but has no obligations to contribute a lot of money and troops to the overlord
 
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Very good. Thanks for showing the map of the Baltic region.
 
So, I'm assuming it was a yes to the first part...
So either the ENTIRETY of India has the same province density as the British Isles or France, which...blegh, an extremely illogical decision...
Or the locations, trade goods etc will be too unclearly shown to comment on.
 
It's estimated to be 1.25M in the year 1340 for Kingdom of Poland and its vassals and 2.0M in the year 1370 for KoP + vassals + lands acquired by Casimir III the Great (Red Ruthenia, part of Volhynia and Podolia, and a small piece of land in the north-west).

For now I'll just paste some maps and tables below. Will turn it into a proper feedback, citing academic sources, once I'm back home and have access to books and maps.

Population density in 1340:

View attachment 1141192

Population in European countries:

View attachment 1141204

Population growth:

View attachment 1141205

Population dynamics in the main three Polish provinces (Wielkopolska/Greater Poland, Malopolska/Lesser Poland, Mazowsze/Mazovia) in 1340 and 1580.
It says the population was split as follows:
Greater Poland 560K + Lesser Poland 440K + Mazovia 250K = 1.25M

View attachment 1141206
Well, 1,25 is just the highest of all estimates, some of which include numbers as low as 0,5, as I said. And neither of these numbers is close to 1,89.
 
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I will allow myself a bit of suggestion here, now, I do not entirely know what sources would be needed here, but:
If I see correctly, then both of locations in Tarnow province are producing salt, that is indeed historic, as both places there (Again, if I see correctly) would be Wieliczka and Bochnia. Now, Wieliczka was to my knowledge bigger of a mine and a city. Even if Bochnia started it's operations much earlier, and even had city rights given to it before Krakow did. However, Wieliczka enjoyed much closer physical distance to Krakow, which lead to Bochnia being less important after Wieliczka started it's operations. (1290 Wieliczka received it's own city rights.) and as such, I'd say the province probably should be named Wieliczka, with Bochnia being name of the secondary location. Tarnow itself meanwhile was not as big as Bochnia was at the EU5 Project Cesar start date. According to the sources I have, Bochnia received Magedburg City rights in year 1253, whist Tarnow got Magdeburg city rights in year 1330.

So, TL : DR

Rename Tarnow location to Bochnia
Rename Tarnow province to Wieliczka

Sources:
Now, arguably this is a bit of a pain, because the sources that I have for this are entirely in Polish, and are not too easy to access in their physical form, but here they come:
Library of the Czartoryski family in Krakow - Orginal location document of the city of Tarnów - Has the date of Tarnow receiving Magdeburg city rights in it)
Copied location document of the city of Bochnia in the State Archives in Bochnia (volume 66 of the Old Polish files, pp. 132 - 137). Also included in the Krakow Voivodeship lustration book from 1569. With book in the Central Archives of Historical Records in Warsaw. - Date of Bochnia receiving Magdeburg city rights
Book of Kazimierz Pająk named Wieliczka – an old mining town. published in Kraków by Wydawnictwo Literackie in 1968. - Date of Wieliczka receiving Dutch/Flemish city rights. And a lot of my knowledge about the area.

More can be added here, like the fact that Wieliczka had a sizeable German minority (mostly employed in mining) to a degree that for some period of time local lingua franca was German instead of Latin, only after a rebellion in 1311 when a German mayor of the town Gerlach von Kulpen joined the rebels and they lost did the push to unify local Little Polish territory in a more homogenous manner resulted in Latin becoming more spoken then German in the area, but this is a sort of detail that I don't even expect to be implemented.
You write correctly, but looking at the map and the shape of the location boundaries, I see that Bochnia is located within the Wieliczka location. The location of Wieliczka looks like the current counties: Wieliczka, Bochnia and Brzesko in one. Tarnów is a location practically identical in terms of borders to the current Tarnów poviat (which, by the way, amuses me a bit). Therefore, changing the name of the location Tarnów to Bochnia would be geographically inappropriate. I would suggest removing salt from the Tarnów location and replacing it with something less valuable.But I agree about the name of the province. Wieliczka is a better fit than Tarnów.
 
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