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Tinto Maps #5 - 7th of June 2024 - Italy

Hello everyone, and welcome to the fifth Tinto Maps! This week we will be sharing the map of Italy.

One comment before we start: we know that you might be eager to discuss other regions that may appear partially on the DD, such as the Balkans. Let’s try to keep the conversations separated in different threads, please; every region will get its own Tinto Maps, and we will show them and gather feedback in due time, in their own DD.

With that said, let’s start!:

Countries
Countries.jpg

The situation of Italy in 1337 is quite interesting. The main power in the peninsula is the Kingdom of Naples, ruled by King Robert I, who is also ruler of Provence, and a few minor countries in Northern Italy; his efforts towards the domination of Italy also made him the leader of the Guelph faction in Italy, which backs the Pope. Speaking of him, the seat of the Curia is at Avignon, and regaining control over the Papal States and moving it back to Rome might take some time and effort. Opposite to all of them, there is the Ghibelline faction, led by the Signoria of Milan, ruled by the Visconti dynasty. They are backed by other important powers in the Italian region, such as the Superb Republic of Genoa, or the Duchy of Verona, ruled by the dynasty of della Scala. There are also neutral powers, like the Republics of Venice or Siena, although they could be attracted to join one of the factions. And we also have foreign powers that have already set a foothold in Italy, such as the Crown of Aragon, which has established a branch of its dynasty as Kings of Sicilia, while also recently conquering some lands in Sardinia.

g&gs.png

Guelphs.jpg

Ghibellines.jpg

Guelphs and Ghibellines factions! They are International Organizations part of a Situation.

Dynasties
dynasties.png


Locations
Locations.jpg

There is an interesting density in Italy, especially in the North, where there are plenty of communes - the Italian city-states. You might also notice something a bit different from previous Paradox GSGs: Venice is not an island, but the location has lands around the lagoon. We aren’t 100% sure that this will be the final design, as we have a few ideas to try to keep its special position on an island inside the lagoon while addressing the issue of it being too small to appear in the map; in this regard, we’re open about feedback and ideas on the topic.

Provinces
Provinces.jpg

Any naming suggestions about the provinces are well-received, as usual.

Terrain
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

Three usual terrain layers. Something that I want to comment on is that we’ve been following this thread about ‘Revising Flatlands and hills’, and we are trying to get a bit more granularity in the Topographical map with the help of @SulphurAeron .

Cultures
Cultures.jpg

Italy is also a region with a sharp cultural division, and also plenty of minorities; although they don’t appear on the map, there are Italki Jews, or Greek and Albanian people in the South, among others.

Religions
Religion.jpg

Another boring region, with more than 90% of the population being Catholic, with most of the religious minorities being Italkim Jews and Orthodox Greeks. We're considering implementing Waldensians, although adding more diverging Catholic heresies/confessions is a bit of a low priority for us right now. As a side note, it might catch your eye the Krstjani of Bosnia; we’ll discuss them later on, in the Tinto Maps devoted to the Balkans.

Raw Goods
Raw Goods.jpg

Italy is a rich region with plenty of interesting raw materials.

Markets
Markets.jpg

There are three market centers in Italy: Genoa, Venice, and Naples (which was a very, very rich country in 1337, the wealthiest of the region). As usual, take into account that. 1. We don't script in the setup which locations belong to each market, they're automatically assigned to each market. 2. This starting distribution is not final, and it might change, as we do tweaks to the market access calculations over time.

Population
Pops Countries.jpg

Pops Locations.png

There is around 10.5M population in the Italian region as of now. Taking into account how divided the political landscape is, Naples looks scary…

And that’s all for this week! For the next one, we will be talking about the British Isles, with @SaintDaveUK . See you!
 
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Strange that this map shows the Splügenpass as a road, even though a road wasn't built until 1823.
Splügenpass was already open in 1300, tho it got closed 3 times between the 1300 and 1463. during that time you had to move through madesimo (which you can still do today), it would be interesting if the closure was represented in the game. in 1823 it was the first time a modern road was build in the pass.
check "J.U. von Salis" and what he says about the Splügenpass (there are other ones that talk about this too but von salis is the most well known).

in the picture linked there is an example of the type of road we are talking about for the 1300s
Ter_0001-1-scaled.jpg
 
Splügenpass was already open in 1300, tho it got closed 3 times between the 1300 and 1463. during that time you had to move through madesimo (which you can still do today), it would be interesting if the closure was represented in the game. in 1823 it was the first time a modern road was build in the pass.
check "J.U. von Salis" and what he says about the Splügenpass (there are other ones that talk about this too but von salis is the most well known).

in the picture linked there is an example of the type of road we are talking about for the 1300s
View attachment 1147027
There's no question that the pass was used as a mule track, but is there any record of armies going across it?
I guess one could ask the same about the San Bernadino Pass which didn't have a proper road until the 18th century. Or other ones, like the Simplonpass which was crossed by Napoleon but looked like this before he built a road.

Realistically, any mule track can also be used to march armies across. If this is the standard, however, then there would have to be like 4 times the number of passes in the Alps represented, which means that crossing the Alps wouldn't be a strategic challenge at all. And you also have to take artillery into account which would be very hard or impossible to move on mule tracks.
That's why my suggestions have been focusing on the important passes that were the main routes for commerce and armies through the Alps.

As far as I know, the Lukmanier and then especially the Gotthard were more important than the San Bernadino/Splügen. The route across the Gotthardpass was the fastest way to the Rhine and its southern endpoint in Bellinzona was fiercely contested by Milan and the Swiss.

This is how the Russian army marched through Switzerland in 1799, using the Gotthardpass and Lukmanierpass.

Ultimately, the devs will have to decide what qualifies as a connection between locations and what doesn't. Does any mule track that was used by traders get represented? Then the number of connections has to be massively increased.
Do only the major connections get representations? What about pass roads that were built late in the time period, like the San Bernadino Pass, Splügenpass or Simplonpass? Surely, if Napoleon used a pass to march a large army across, that would be an argument for its inclusion, but what if that was only possible after he built a road?
 
The row material in San Severo should be wheat or wine, since it was know for these products. It could be olso stone or marble since in the location there are a few important old extraction caves. Also in the location of Manfredonia the row material should be salt since there are quite old salt pans.
 
Why are the provinces in Italy small, while in Hungary the provinces are massive? "Somogy" is gigantic compared to Abruzzo Ultra.


View attachment 1145363

Here are the medieval counties of Hungary. These look like the perfect size to be the provinces in the game, and they were very important historically as political units. Why can't the game use them?
View attachment 1145365
Maps were done at different moments, by different people; even if we had guidelines, they ought to be different among regions. In any case, we're reviewing all of them after each Tinto Maps, taking into account the community feedback, so consider them 'work in progress' when we present them here.
 
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Mmmmmh. By 1337, the Lega Antiscaligera was in full swing, with at least Florence, Venice, Ferrara, and Mantua openly warring against Verona; Milan would jump in a scant few months later, joined by the Emperor, and Verona would be absolutely mauled, only being left in the possession of Verona and Vicenza by 1339. Is this ongoing war represented somehow? If yes, I can't see it.
It's not yet present in-game, but as we're currently working on the content of the game, I'll make a note to add it.
 
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View attachment 1145107

(It doesn't look so pixelated in-game, it's because of the quick screenshot I've just taken)
Will Venice have 2 flags, a peace time and a war time one?

(Just learned the other day that the lion had a sword while at war... which would be quite epic to see) [yes my current source is only an OSP video and a quick google to make sure it isn't completely wrong :p)
 
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There's no question that the pass was used as a mule track, but is there any record of armies going across it?
I see what you mean, I haven't thought of it that way, I'd say before 1714 there is no way artillery would pass through that, after 1714 is questionable but I'd say they couldn't (until 1818-1821).
I tend to agree with your point of view honestly, maybe allowing commerce and probably whatever culture/governing mechanic there is in the game but no army (or only infantry although it is questionable if they could) is the best to represent this.
 
I made this new map with a better representation of the massif of Gennargentu (impassable land in black).
I used this map as a basis.

This would completely block the path from south to north (and viceversa) in the east of the island,
which is totally realistic, especially for the time period.

View attachment 1146748

I already see myself building a fort in the province south of Nuoro. But also a fort in Oristano, the capital of Arborea, will block the path from north to south!
 
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I have a suggestion !

1st -
I don't even now if you have a 3d terrain map already but it would be realy a great thing (a least for me) to have unique style for the 3d settlement like for france a flemish/dutch 3d visual for city in the north, a "standard france style for the middle and an occitan for the south. It can possibly be a cultural group thing but maybe a province thing directly because i expect a more centralize culture in the end

2nd -
In link with the first I would love to see the important city of each province to have unique landmark in the 3d representation (not neccesary a unique building to build)
Like for florence having the seignioria, the duomo and the ponte vecchio.
Perhabs start only with the capital at the launch and implement more withing the update/dlc of each region

For me it would realy be a game changing thing that can realy ad flavor and immersion to each playthrough and feel to play unique nation with each new start
 
Carbonia was founded by Mussolini, prior to that in the area of Sulcis the most important city was only Iglesias, if you want to put a city in the area where you put Carbonia it would be a great idea to put Sulci which was a very old diocese prior to Aragonese invasion, or eventually Tratalias which is the city where the diocese was moved after the invasion.
I think the name for Sulcis has to be Tratalias. The city of Sulci was already completely abandoned by XIV century.
Instead, Tratalias was the Diocesis seat and the curadoria's capital.

Same for Dorgali, i think Galtellì would be a better choice
I think Orosei is a better choice, in the XIV century it was the curadoria capital, having replaced Galtellì, and was also the biggest city.
It was also the second most important port in Gallura, after Terranova.

Ozieri and Nuoro only became important cities in sardinia after the XIX century, a couple of ideas to replace them would be Bitti / Orotelli / Ollollai / Ottana, they were much more important centers
I made this map with new locations for Sardinia, what do you think of the names I've put?
Political map of Sardinia.png

Sardinian
Italian
Catalan
AligheraAlgheroAlguer
ArdaraArdaraArdara
Aristane/AristanisOristanoOristany
BelchiddaBerchiddaBerchidda
BitziBittiBitti
BosaBosaBosa
BurguBurgosBurgos
CàlariCallari / Castel di CastroCàller / Castell de Càller
Casteddugenovesu / CasteddusarduCastelgenoveseCastellaragonès
ChirraQuirraQuirra
FordongianusFordongianusFordongianus
Igrèsias / Bidda de CresiaVilla di Chiesa / ChiesaEsgleyes / Vila d'Esgleyes
LaconiLaconiLaconi
LungoniLongosardoLongosard
MacumereMacomerMacomer
NurraNurraNurra
OllollaiOllolaiOllolai
OriseiOroseiOrusei
OsileOsiloOsilo
PasadaPasadaPasada
Pauli GerreiSan Nicolò GerreiSant Nicolau Gerrei
SenobrìSenorbìSenorbì
SeuluSeuloSeulo
TempiuTempioTemple
TerrabaTerralbaTerralba
TerranoaTerranovaTerranoa
ThathariSassariSàsser
TortolìTortolìTortolì
TrataliasTrataliasTratalias
 
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Makes sense if there’s a soft pixel limit as to why we wouldn’t see San Marino and Monaco then, I’m assuming they each come under 50 and would be difficult to play with
Yes, exactly.

How do you feel about making small locations big enough to make them playable? Say, if a potential location would likely add value to the game, but its too small within its historical borders to work? In such case, would you consider distorting reality a little bit by moving some pixels from neighboring bigger locations to the small one in order to let it pass the requirements?
 
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I can understand Monaco not being on map as it is really tiny but I think we can enlarge San Marino just a bit so it can be qualified as one of the smallest locations
 
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I'm looking at the cultural map of North Africa and wondering if the game will reflect the remnants of the Romanian-speaking Catholic population of the region that existed in the region in the 14th century. Protecting this population from the Muslim majority would be a nice casus bellli for Aragon or Naples, or a reason for a crusade for the papacy it would be nice to be able to build a catholic state with southern roman culture and try to recreate the roman empire with it.
 
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