• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Tinto Maps #7 - 21st of June 2024 - Anatolia

Hello everyone, and welcome to the seventh edition of Tinto Maps! I am once again asking for your support back to the duty of showing a new region of the map of the super secret Project Caesar, which this week is Anatolia!

Countries:
Countries.jpg

A beautifully divided Anatolia! The disintegration of the Sultanate of Rûm in the 13th century, caused by the Mongol invasion, led to multiple Turkish Beyliks grabbing power over their area. Probably the strongest in 1337 is the Ottoman one, founded by the Turkoman leader Osman Ghazi, but there are other strong contenders such as the Eretnids, the Germiyanids, or the Karamanids, which will be fighting for hegemony over the region. You might also notice that the Byzantine Empire//Eastern Roman Empire//Basileía Rhōmaíōn//[insert here your favorite naming option] still holds a few positions in Anatolia, the most notable being the city of Philadelphia. Apart from them, other interesting countries in the region are the Despotate of Trebizond, held by the Komnenoi, the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia, and, of course, The-country-known-in-another-IP-as-Hisn-Kayfa, the Ayyubid remnant in al-Jazira. And you might also notice some Genoese outposts, making them important players as well.

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The dynastic map is pretty straightforward, as a different dynasty rules each Beylik. We have fixed the issue with the random dynasty names, so no more weird 'the XXXX of XXXX' dynastic names anymore. To spice things up, we could maybe start a Byzantine discussion: Palaiologos, or Komnenos?

Locations:
Locations.jpg

As usual, please consider that dynamic location naming is not yet a thing in this region, and therefore the inconsistencies in the language used. As an additional note of caution, please don’t use the Aegean Islands as a reference or benchmark for comparison, as a review of them is something that we’ve got on our list of ‘to do’. You may be able to see that the location density in the region is gradual, from denser coastal regions to bigger inland ones.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

We have changed the coloring of the provinces, making them more different, and easier to understand, though. Apart from that, suggestions in this matter are welcomed, as usual.

Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

The terrain in Anatolia is quite interesting and unique, as it’s composed of very different features: the central Anatolian Plateau, with a colder climate and more sparse vegetation, is opposed to the rugged and more forested coastlines to the north and south, while only having fluvial flatlands to the west, and in Cilicia (an area that always has been a choke point between Anatolia and Syria. And to the east, the territory becomes increasingly more mountainous, as it approaches the Caucasus.

Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

Anatolia is the first region of the Middle East with cultural and religious minorities added, just in time for this Tinto Maps, so we can have endless discussions about the divide between the Greek and Turkish cultures! Hurray! Now seriously, we’ve made what we think is the most accurate division for 1337, given the scarcity of data. The stripes point to a variation of the pop percentages in each location, from let’s say 70% of Greeks in Izmit or Bursa, to 80% of Turks in Ankara or Konya. We have also added some subdivisions of these cultures, with the Pontic and Cappadocian Greeks; and the Turkomans (you might note a majority of them around Sivas and Malatya), that portray more a ‘class//social grouping’ divide than an ethnic or language divide, as these Turkoman pops are always tribesmen, while we consider the settled population as Turkish. Other than that, we have a good amount of Armenians distributed between the areas of Cilicia and Armenia; Laz people to the north; and Kurds to the east (the brownish-greenish culture). Also, please ignore the chunk of Syria that appears, as the minorities there are not yet done.

Religions:
Religions.jpg

We’re back to interesting religious divisions! We have in Anatolia Orthodox, Sunni, Miaphysite, and Nestorian pops. And if you wonder what are those pink stripes in Thrace, they are a Paulician minority.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.jpg

There are some interesting materials distributed all over Anatolia, such as Alum (which was a main export to Italy, usually handled by the merchant republics), Silk, Marble, or Copper. And if you’re wondering about the Spices, they were previously Saffron.

Markets:
Markets.jpg

The market centers of the region are Constantinople to the west, Trebizond to the north, and Damascus to the south. Nothing speaks against a Turkish Beylik conquering one or all of them, or creating a new market center, probably in the middle of the Anatolian Plateau, although probably it will require some infrastructure to make it fully functional.

Location and Country Population:
Pops Locations.jpg

Pops Country.jpg

And populations. Byzantium has some edge over each of the Beylikz, but not if they ally with each other, or if they ally with its Balkanic rivals… Also, have I heard about a 66K Ayyubid challenge?

That’s all for today! We’ll most likely be uploading the French feedback results by the end of next week or at the start of the following one (as next week there's an important bank holiday for this company, Midsommar St. John's Day, and some people will be on vacation a few days), and in the meantime, we'll also be reading and answering your feedback about Anatolia. And next Friday, we will be taking a look at Russia. See you then!

PS: I had a flight today that was delayed, therefore the delay on the DD until an (interesting) hour in which I'll be available for replying.
 
  • 150Love
  • 136Like
  • 7
  • 4
  • 1
Reactions:
I wonder how nations in the Maghreb region are going to "perform" without an ottoman alliance while having the iberian kingdoms as major threat. Since the ottomans do not start as powerful as usual, even with allying the Ottomans I doubt that the ottomans can be a helpful hand for the Maghrebians! :oops: I really wonder!
The Marinids are a power to be reckoned on their own in 1337.
 
  • 26
  • 13Like
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:
May we know why is there Turkish minority in Izmit if Nikomedia was conquered the same year as the game starts? @Pavía
Each location also takes into account its rural hinterland population-wise. In any case, we'll double-check.
 
  • 23Like
  • 1
Reactions:
Glad to see Anatolia is getting so much detail! I hope when the time comes, the Balkans get the same treatment.
It also has a lot of detail. Actually, we don't have any 'preferred regions'; you may see in the future the level of detail that we've gone through in all of them.
 
  • 18Like
  • 9Love
  • 3
  • 1
Reactions:
Will there be interactions with ahis and dervish lodges to boost Turkification and Islamization? They could be buildings maybe?
 
  • 2
  • 1Love
Reactions:
I'm ethnically Half Turkish and Half Kurdish. Government treats well to us. I can speak Kurdish but in 80s My famil couldn't openly. My sister couldn't get in University bcs she wore a hijab. she needed to took his hijab off. Hakan Fidan Ministry of Foreign Affairs is Kurdish. Vice President of Turkey is Kurdish. Economy minister Mehmet Şimşek is Kurdish. Moreover, many kurds steal electiricity and don't pay it don't give any taxes to governemnt. I lived in east more than 18 years and saw myself how seperatist Kurds damaged my country as well as how Unionist kurds helped the society in many ways.
Sure there are some integrated Kurds in Turkish culture, but you realise the Kurds didn't assimilate voluntarily right? There was forced resettlement and many massacres of Kurdish civilians. The Kurds were contractually granted an independent state over a 100 years ago and still haven't received it. And even now, the Turkish military is actively engaging Kurdish cities in Iraq and Syria. During the ISIS war, when the Kurds were fighting against ISIS on the side of us (NATO), Turkey, a member of NATO flew bombing raids on Kurdish positions. There is a silent genocide going on. And just because your family is assimilated and have a nice position in life, doesn't mean every Kurd feels the same way and it also doesn't mean you'd immediately be called a terrorist and imprisoned or worse just for demanding independence.
 
  • 8
  • 3Haha
  • 3
Reactions:
I don't think they should get all the possibilities though. Ottomans had several distinct features of governance and administration that separated them from other Turkish beyliks and indeed other Turkic / Turco-Mongol states at the time. Particularly in regards to their pragmatic and dynamic governance and ability to quickly absorb and adapt elites and institutions. Giving other beyliks just same stuff as Ottomans if they happen to replace them really doesn't do justice to their features as they were definitely unique and not just the Turkish beylik that happened to win the Turkish thunderdome.
That they have similar possibilities doesn't mean that they will be exactly the same, content-wise.
 
  • 37Like
Reactions:
Sure there are some integrated Kurds in Turkish culture, but you realise the Kurds didn't assimilate voluntarily right? There was forced resettlement and many massacres of Kurdish civilians. The Kurds were contractually granted an independent state over a 100 years ago and still haven't received it. And even now, the Turkish military is actively engaging Kurdish cities in Iraq and Syria. During the ISIS war, when the Kurds were fighting against ISIS on the side of us (NATO), Turkey, a member of NATO flew bombing raids on Kurdish positions. There is a silent genocide going on. And just because your family is assimilated and have a nice position in life, doesn't mean every Kurd feels the same way and it also doesn't mean you'd immediately be called a terrorist and imprisoned or worse just for demanding independence.
"I hope Turkey can experience a democratic renaissance in the spirit of Kemal soon." Did you know most of the speratist Kurds had been killed by Mustafa Kemal ? No? But yet you still want Turks to get spirit of Kemal? Huh? Well. Turkish doesn't change you are juıst hypocritical on this. Resettlement of Kurds? Did you mean resettlement of marksist Terrorists Supported by Russia? Afrin still Kurdish under Turkis rule. YPG PKK is not Kurdish but most of them marksist leninist Pro-Antifa terrorists reason of many civilian deaths in Turkiye since 1979. ISIS = YPG/PKK Same. They are all terrorists and They don't represent Unionist Kurds. You guys are nothing but a propaganda machine on this. Turkiye was the first country which launched a ground military operation against ISIS from outside of Syria and Iraq in 2016 with Euphrates Shield Operation killed more than 3k Isis member
 
  • 20
  • 2
  • 1Love
  • 1
Reactions:
@Pavía
According to Turkish sources, Tavas Beylik was founded in the 1300s in Tavas and was ruled by İlyas Bey. It is claimed that the Tavas Beylik joined the Menteşe Beylik in 1365.
source: http://www.tavas.gov.tr/tarihce

It is generally thought that the newcomers were Turkmens, and with the weakening and fall of the Seljuks, the Tavas Beylik was established in the 1300s. At that time, the Tavas Beylik was led by İlyas Bey and they became affiliated with the Mevlevi order.

The Tavas Beylik was founded as a buffer zone between the Germiyan, Aydın, Hamit, and Menteşe Beyliks. With the transition of Denizli to the Germiyan Beylik, the Tavas Beylik was annexed by the Menteşe Beylik in 1365. Initially, the beylik was settled in the village of Horasanlı and later in the village of Hırka.

Here on the map of Europe from 1300, you can see the Tavas Beylik.
1719005006762.png


I saw the Tavas province on the map, so it could be added there if you are interested.
 
  • 6Like
  • 2
  • 1Love
  • 1
Reactions:
They are all terrorists and They don't represent Unionist Kurds.
I guess all the members of the IRA etc are not Irish, or the ETA Basque.

You can have terrorist or military groups, but the nationalistic Turkish discrimination and arguable genocide of the Kurds and continued modern actions against the Kurds in Northern Iraq and Syria should be condemned. Same with the historic Turkish genocide of Armenians.

But I would never blame all Turkish people for the actions of Militants and the State. But seeing the response to Holzhead's comment (despite his previously racist comment against Turks) is illuminating.

I suggest people dont discuss modern politics in this thread, its clogging the feedback and honestly concerning about some of the nationalistic and bigoted views on both sides.
 
  • 11Like
  • 3
  • 1
Reactions:
No I'm just saying there are cultural differences. And I know Turks and I know they're highly nationalistic and they really don't take truth as seriously as us. If you're honest with yourself you'd agree. Especially the current government which is known to be very corrupt. And yeah sure, Turks might have had some good historians. I didn't mean to discredit everyone from Turkey although I realise now that it came over that way. It's just that I feel a base scepticism towards any information coming from Turks, especially when it's about how great Turkey is or was. And I think most people can relate.
Don't worry I'm honest with myself and still don't agree.
First of all, there is no such thing as a governmert resorce or a government publication. We call it "propaganda". No logical people would take those things seriously. History is not about showing how great a group of people were. History is history. Of course there are some people who thinks themselves historians and trying to show things differently than it was but those people are either ignorant nationalists or a part (and maybe just victims) of gov. propaganda. Secondly, if you think your culture or nation values scientific facts so much you need to wake up my friend. Because sad to say but I have come across countless of european "sources" that claims to be a valid resource although containing cropped, edited or misleading information when it comes to the ottoman history. There are still some ottoman historians like Hammer and Babinger who people give credit to but containing objectively wrong information. Babinger's biography of Mehmed II for example, that's a horrible book which is written without even using contemporary Ottoman sources. That's why I mentioned that in my last message with a mocking attitude. And for the last, we are arguing about 14th century Anatolia, which Turks ruler over all of it. Therefore if you want to learn Turkish history, you must learn it from the Turkish historians. Real historians, not government propaganda. Because it is our history. It's just simple as that. (Of course there are great non-turkish historians but those people are not many I'm afraid and are not the target of my critics.)
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
"I hope Turkey can experience a democratic renaissance in the spirit of Kemal soon." Did you know most of the speratist Kurds had been killed by Mustafa Kemal ? No? But yet you still want Turks to get spirit of Kemal? Huh? Well. Turkish doesn't change you are juıst hypocritical on this. Resettlement of Kurds? Did you mean resettlement of marksist Terrorists Supported by Russia? Afrin still Kurdish under Turkis rule. YPG PKK is not Kurdish but most of them marksist leninist Pro-Antifa terrorists reason of many civilian deaths in Turkiye since 1979. ISIS = YPG/PKK Same. They are all terrorists and They don't represent Unionist Kurds. You guys are nothing but a propaganda machine on this. Turkiye was the first country which launched a ground military operation against ISIS from outside of Syria and Iraq in 2016 with Euphrates Shield Operation killed more than 3k Isis member
Typical Turkish nationalist answer lol. You're right Kemal was involved in the Kurdish genocide and I actually didn't know that.

But yeah Turkey is a typical fascistoid islamist state, let me explain.
If you are "allowed" to be a member of society unless you ask for rights or independence, then yes that's known as fascism. And Turkey openly supports Hamas, an islamist terrorist organisation.
Turkey extorted Europe by disallowing Ukrainian ships to pass the Bosporus unless their conditions are met. Turkey extorted NATO by disallowing Sweden in unless they prohibit the burning of Korans, which btw is against the Swedish constitution.
Turkey illegaly invaded a European country, Cyprus, to "protect the Turkish minority" the same exact logic Russia is using for their illegal invasion of Ukraine. And Turkey's satellite state Azerbaijan invaded Armenia over and over again which is also illegal.
And it gets worse. Turkey and Azerbaijan are known for finding and eliminating dissident journalists. You're in denial about how criminal and fascistoid Turkey really is. Just like every single Turk I've ever spoken to.
Inform yourself.
 
  • 12
  • 4Like
  • 4
  • 1Haha
Reactions:
It bothers me that provinces owned by Turkish-culture, Sunni countires are included in the Constantinople market. I'm wondering if it's possible to make it so culture/faith differences would result (at least early, and then this could maybe changed later as states become more progressive) in a much lower market attraction score? It just feels weird that the Byzantine Empire would be able to influence or control the trade between the Ottomans and the Karasids, for example.
 
  • 8
Reactions:
Not entire Turkish/Turkoman population were Muslim that time. There were still Tengri/Shaman minorities who did not convert to Islam that time. They were probably like 1% of the population or something like that but they did exist. Please keep Tengri pops in Anatolia as they they were living there in real life.

Here is a movie which is based on 1312, telling story of a Tengrist man and his friend who converted to Islam, trying to understand cultural change of the other Turksh who converted to Islam: Hacivat ve Karagöz Neden Öldürüldü?
 
  • 12Like
Reactions:
Not entire Turkish/Turkoman population were Muslim that time. There were still Tengri/Shaman minorities who did not convert to Islam that time. They were probably like 1% of the population or something like that but they did exist. Please keep Tengri pops in Anatolia as they they were living there in real life.

Here is a movie which is based on 1312, telling story of a Tengrist man and his friend who converted to Islam, trying to understand cultural change of the other Turksh who converted to Islam: Hacivat ve Karagöz Neden Öldürüldü?
Exactly what I'm talking about. Preach bro
 
Is Cyprus not a part of the Anatolia Region?
it is in eu4
It was historically considered part of Anatolia geographically but nowadays doing so has irrendentist implications so I assume it might be in the Syria region instead. Alternatively it might part of the Anatolia region in-game but still WIP so it'll be shown when we get to Tinto Maps Syria.
 
  • 4Like
  • 1
Reactions:
It bothers me that provinces owned by Turkish-culture, Sunni countires are included in the Constantinople market. I'm wondering if it's possible to make it so culture/faith differences would result (at least early, and then this could maybe changed later as states become more progressive) in a much lower market attraction score? It just feels weird that the Byzantine Empire would be able to influence or control the trade between the Ottomans and the Karasids, for example.
It's worth noting that the Byzantines during their civil war of 1341-1347 brought in several beyliks into the conflict, and Andronikos III evidently had an alliance with Aydin prior to his death.

I don't think it makes too much sense to have a strict exclusion.
 
  • 3Like
  • 2
  • 1Love
Reactions: