Tinto Maps #8 - 28th of June 2024 - Russia

[Pavía]

I read this 3 times as hair selections and was like okay cool… definitely missing something.

We want people to love the 3D models, right? What better for that purpose than having hair selections for them, as in GTA?

PS: Just joking, before someone comes and says how hateful 3D models are.

 

[Pavía]

View attachment 1155221
Can we get some more zoomed in location maps of the region, particularly in western Russia? There are so many locations where it's not possible to read what their names are, or the names are not visible at all

Would also be a nice thing to get the zoomed in sections in the main posts each week, as it is a problem in some of the regions shown.

Sure. I considered breaking a bit more the map this week, already, but Russia was just on the border of what can be seen and what not, so I preferred to post just one map and offer more detailed ones if needed:

 

[Pavía]

Is Galicia-Volhynia part of the tatar yoke or is their natural color yellow?

It's a tributary of the Golden Horde, although not part of the Tatar Yoke IO.

 

[Pavía]

In Tinto Maps about Poland you showed Polan dynasty instead of Korachev, is this like that because it's randomized?

Yes.

 

[Pavía]

Will the Cossac culture be implemented? They were Severians and Ruthenians, who migrated into the Steppe, and formed nomad-like culture.

We definitely want the Cossacks to be portrayed somehow in the game, although we have yet to decide exactly how.

 

[Pavía]

are Moscovites going to have some kind of ability to collect duties from Russian principalites for the Golden horde?

We have an IO with some specific features, and its leader is a ruler nicknamed 'Moneybag', so...

 

[Pavía]

Now, this might not be the exact thread to ask this, but I was wondering if there will be a difference between ice-free and non-ice-free ports, and if so, will they have special mechanics? Given that it is something that has always been important for Russia.

We will talk about this in a future Tinto Talks.

 

[Pavía]

View attachment 1155222
I have some feedback on the cultural mapmode in Russia, mostly focused on the Volga near the edge of the Russian region. I know we were told to only focus on the Russian heartlands, but the Volga bend is close enough for it to matter. The first thing I'd like to see added is a new Chuvash culture, which I have shown in red. The Chuvash are a Oghur Turkic ethnic group, notably they're the only Oghur language still alive today. Because of this the Chuvash language is completely unintelligible with all Shaz Turkic languages, notably including Tatar and Bashkir. They're quite a significant ethnic group and should definitely be added, though note that the border I drew isn't the actual linguistic border.

The second culture I'd like to see added are the Moksha, who are a Mordvinic people who are often lumped together with the Erzya. This is because they are both Mordvinic speaking people's speaking similar Uralic languages, however the two languages are not mutually intelligible. I do have to applaud Paradox for not calling it a united "Morvin" culture, however sadly half of all Morvins were just forgotten about as the Moksha are weirdly absent. I have coloured them orange and they are directly below the Erzya, as they live just south of them.

Edit: Because Erzya culture is misplaced in game, Moksha culture should be moved alongside it to be west of Kazan.

Another change that should be made is to the Ingrian culture, as they're very hard to see in game. Ingrian and Karelian have almost identical map colours, which is especially annoying because they border eachother. I'd recommend changing them to Navy, as it would make them easy to distinguish them from the Karelians, while also making their colour similar to the turquoise of the Estonians.

Also, I have a question about the Pomor; are they considered Slavic, Uralic or a bit of both? As they're an ethnic group of Slavic settlers in the region who came from Novgorod. However, they're genetically Uralic in what seems to be a bit of an anthropological mystery. So I wonder how that will be represented in game, as they're a Slavic people with a Uralic origin.

1. We already have Chuvash and Moksha cultures, although we will review their position, as that of the Erzya one.
2. Good note on the similar coloring of Ingrian and Karelian, we'll take a look at that.
3. Pomor is considered a Slavic-speaking culture.

 

[Pavía]

View attachment 1155240

Why is this culture named Kazani and not Tatar?
Tatar yoke was named after them.

We have several 'Tatar' cultures, Kazani is just one of them.

 

[Pavía]

Am I bonkers, or are there two different colours of Lumber in the goods map? It looks like the Lumber in the south is a different colour.

Edit: Nevermind, looks like all the goods in the south are lightly shaded for some reason.

Sometimes there is a weird mapmode behavior when I take the screenshot, and I have the pointer over something (like, in this case, the Golden Horde). I'll just replace the screenshot, thanks for reporting.

 

[Pavía]

I understand that it’s kinda hard to represent them since there wasn’t too much information on the edges of the Russian heartland, but I was kinda hoping for the Vic3 type system for colonization where there are no “uncolonized” provinces but rather decentralized territories that represent people still lived there. Will this system be represented in the new world or is project Caesar going with the uncolonized land system?

That there are locations not under the control of a country at the start of the game doesn't mean that people don't live there; you might notice that those locations have their populations, with their own cultures. We will talk more in the future about how colonization works in our game.

 

[Pavía]

Regarding the origin of modern East Slavic ethnic groups and how they evolved from medieval tribal groups to contemporary ethnic groups during Project Caesar's timespan, may I recommend Serhii Plokhy's book "The Origins of the Slavic Nations: Premodern Identities in Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus"? It's an amazing resource concerning the development of East Slavic ethnicities, which Project Caesar would need to touch on.

In addition, despite existing in the game start, the principalities of Malmyzh and Izhmari are absent from the map. Both were among the largest of the Mari principalities, and persisted until late 1500s until they were conquered during the Cheremis Wars. Malmyzh's prince Boltush was one of the main commanders of the Mari during the Cheremis Wars. The Mari principalities of Vetluzhsky Principality (AKA Vetluga/Shanza/Sanga) and Chimbulat Principality (AKA Kokšar) would've probably still existed during the game's timeperiod, whereas the Mari principalities of Kityaka, Porek, and Urzhum would go on to form later in the 1500s.

Vychegda Perm AKA Principality of Vym should probably also be represented as a distinct political entity separate from Great Perm.


Probably not for the Vepsians, since they were Christianised in the 900s-1000s, and are thus the oldest Baltic-Finnic ethnic group to have Christianised. This is reflected in Vepsian folklore being rather Christianised - one of the reasons why Finnish folklorists ignored Vepsians was that their early Christianisation had led to them not preserving their traditional runic songs, and having instead adopted much Russian folk poetry. For Izhorians and Karelians, the presence of Baltic Finnic polytheism is perfectly reasonable - even among the Finns, missionary work was still ongoing in the 1300s and 1400s.

Insightful feedback, thanks!

 

[Pavía]

• Why are Smolensk and Rhzev subjects of Lithuania in 1337? As far as I can determine this didn't happen until the 1350s.
• On the Volga visibility, it's certainly be nice to have it (and the major Siberian routes) visible on the map, but regardless of their direct visibility, are these used in the proximity calculations Johan mentioned in Talk #6?

1. We'll double-check.
2. Yes, it's used for those.

 

[Pavía]

Here are my suggestions for the Vychegda Pechora Region.
View attachment 1155215

States
View attachment 1155314

The sites are based on archaeological sites and their distribution in the region, and nearly every location has at least one archaeological site in it.

The names are usually in Komi instead of Russian. The Russian equivalents can be provided if need be.

Here's the culture setup for this region.
View attachment 1155285
Made it so that Moksha and Erzya actually exist in their homeland since they weren't yet displaced by either Tatars or Russians that much in 1337. The exact borders might be different but the general idea is that they weren't expelled east until way later under Russian rule.

The Komi cover a huge area but that's because they inhabited this large an area. One could split it later on into Permyak and Zyriane. However it is not historical to cover Perm in Udmurt for no discernible reason at all, so I have reduced the Udmurt area by quite a bunch to a more historical zone. They could also expand a little toward the Vyatka region as well but at this point Russians started to settle Vyatka land so it's fine here.
For some reason Mari are only in a very small area so I expanded them to be more accurate. I also added back the Chuvash as a remnant of the Bolghars.
The Magyars represent the Chiyalik culture which existed all the way to the 15th century at the very least and spoke a Magyar language as evidenced by it's connections to the Magyar and Ugric Karayakupovo and Kushnarenkovo cultures. Nenets should cover a little smaller area in the Pechora region mainly concentrated alongside Usa and very lower reaches of Pechora. There should be connecting locations between the Kanin peninsula and lower Pechora as well.

Religion is hard to determine at this stage but most of these cultures should have either their own ethnoreligions at this point or be somewhat christianized. Namely Komi and Udmurt could share a religion and so could Moksha and Erzya. The Mari religion still exists and has quite a bunch of literature behind it and should have their own religion for sure. The Chuvash as well. The Magyar could share a religion with other Ugric speakers or have their own as they've been isolated for quite some time now and the specifics could be added according to their Pannonian cousins. The Nenets also deserve their own religion maybe shared with other tundra Samoyedic peoples.

As for tags here we come to the philosophical question of what a TAG in PC even is. Right now the massive Great Perm is not only ahistorical but unbalanced and represents nothing, not at least the real Great Perm centered around Cherdyn. As far as I can see the massive Great Perm TAG covers not only Cherdyn and Upper Kama but also most Udmurt territory, Vychegda Perm and even the reaches into Pechora. If you're willing to represent these territories under the control of a TAG then may I give some ideas as to how to split up Great Perm alongside a few other changes to the current political setup of this area.

View attachment 1155287
Ežva is the core area of the Vym culture. Ežva is the name of Vychegda in Komi and named so because the area was called Vychegda Perm in Russian sources. If a polity was to be here, I think it should be based on the Vym culture the ancestors of Komi Zyriane.

Great Perm centers mostly around the Rodanovo culture, the ancestor of Permyaks.

Udmurtia is largely based on the Chepetsk fort culture and could be renamed Cheptsa to reflect this.
The Mari principalities are based on Russian sources of Mari principalities in the area that existed between the 13th and 16th centuries after the fall of Volga Bulgaria and the rise of Russia. They could be in some sort of relations with the Golden Horde. I would like some verification on them as my sources on them aren't the best right now and could be left as is until further confirmation on their state and existence is provided.

Southern Udmurtia could be argued to be part of the Golden horde if anything.

As for Pečöra they would represent the Pechora tribe in Russian chronicles. They could be subjects of Novgorod to reflect the taxing relationship. Nenets could also have their own tribe further north centered around the Komatyvis culture if you want to give them a TAG to play with.

As for climate, I think it should be adjusted according to the new locations I suggested but I don't know the exact specifics so I'll leave it up to the team to appropriately represent this area on that front. As far as resources go they seem okay for me although specific resources will obviously have to be discussed for the new locations depending on if there's any archaeological or cultural basis.

Sources

https://www.zamky.com.ua/ru/respublyka-komy/arheologyya-y-drevnyaya-ystoryya-pechorskogo-rajona/
https://www.zamky.com.ua/ru/respublyka-komy/arheologyya-y-drevnyaya-ystoryya-ust-tsylemskogo-rajona/
https://www.zamky.com.ua/ru/respublyka-komy/arheologyya-y-drevnyaya-ystoryya-yntynskogo-rajona/
https://www.zamky.com.ua/ru/respublyka-komy/arheologyya-y-drevnyaya-ystoryya-usynskogo-rajona/
https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/n...ii-v-epohu-zheleza-po-arheologicheskim-dannym
https://web.archive.org/web/2021042...42/1/10.17746-1563-0110.2019.47.3.074-084.pdf
https://sci-hub.se/10.1007/s10816-020-09455-w
https://illhkomisc.ru/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/maesv_xix_24_12_web.pdf
https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/o...i-srednevekovie-po-dannym-arheologii-chast-ii
https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/ob-ochen-drevney-istorii-yazycheskogo-belomorya
https://illhkomisc.ru/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/maesv_18.pdf
http://old.archaeology.nsc.ru/ru/publish/journal/doc/2011/47.pdf
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ижмаринское_княжество
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Малмыжское_княжество
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ветлужские_марийцы
https://www.zamky.com.ua/ru/moskovskaya-oblast/arheologyya-y-drevnyaya-ystoryya-pryluzkogo-rajona/
https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/p...i-zyryan-arheologo-etnograficheskie-paralleli
https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/pogrebeniya-s-monetami-kichilkosskogo-i-mogilnika
https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/e...dnevekovya-po-materialam-pogrebalnogo-obryada
https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/i...v-epohu-srednevekovya-po-materialam-vymskoy-i
https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/b...nizhnevychegodskogo-chezhtyyagskogo-mogilnika
https://www.rulit.me/books/finno-ugry-i-balty-v-epohu-srednevekovya-read-722947-140.html
http://nasledie-archive.ru/objs/1100091000.htmlhttps://www.zamky.com.ua/ru/respubl...-drevnyaya-ystoryya-knyazhpogostskogo-rajona/
https://naukarus.com/gorodische-novik-xii-xiii-vv-na-sredney-vychegde-respublika-komi
https://prussia.online/Data/Book/fi/finno-ugri-i-balti-v-epohu-srednevekovya/Финно-угры%20и%20балты%20в%20эпоху%20средневековья%20(1987),%20OCR.pdf
https://journal.fi/iskos/article/view/110524/64996
https://www.thefreelibrary.com/ON+N...PERM+FINNS+IN+VII-VIII+CENTURIES.-a0564608534

Great feedback, thanks!

 

[Pavía]

What's that tiny bit of Lithuania south of Trubchevsk?

Rylsk and Glukhovo, two pieces of land apparently controlled directly by Lithuania.

 

[Pavía]

@Pavía whats the location's name of the one between Plyussa and Porchov?

Dubronjo.

 

[Pavía]

Cool, is the same for that tag named "Kas." Situated between Mologa and Tver?

That's the Principality of Kashin, which is a vassal of the Principality of Tver, which is a tributary of the Golden Horde.

 

[Johan]

First of all, excited to see the sneak peek of Finland and find my own home town there! Definitely something I wasn't expecting but it makes me even happier.

Now, to the questions/suggestions regarding Finland and it's relationship with Russia.

- you can kinda see the border between Sweden and the Novgorodian vassal, and it's pretty much just in the south. However, the Treaty of Nöteborg acknowledged the border much further north in the now-uncolonised lands.

- something in the predecessor of Project Caesar that bothers me about independent Finland was the capital, as it is always Helsinki, although for the timeframe it should be Turku. Helsinki was only made the capital during the Grand Duchy (under Russia).

Åbo should be the capital yes, but its also depends on what type of Finland we want to simulate really, as "Egentliga Finland" for most of the timeperiod was rather "swedish", if not in ethnical backgrounds, very much so in culture compared to the rest of Finland.


Borders in uncolonized areas are rather hard to define currently in the game, but I would really like to have historical borders happening organically there, I'd like to simulate it.

 

[Johan]

3. Technical reasons, maybe @Johan has some time available to explain it (I'm not sure what can already be talked about, and what is still a 'secret matter').

They need to belong to somewhere in the province-area-region-subcontinent-continent hierarchy for many mechanics to work properly.

 

[Johan]

Could Wastelands/Impassable terrain be their own Provonce by it self or with other Wastelands/Impassable terrain.

no, because it would break the REDACTED mechanics