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Tinto Maps #8 - 28th of June 2024 - Russia

Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Maps! This week we’ll be taking a look at Russia!

As an introductory note, we’re just considering today the ‘Russian core’, which in 1337 comprised the different Russian Principalities, as far as the White Sea to the north, and the Ural Mountains to the east. The lands that would later be incorporated into the Russian Empire will be covered in future Tinto Maps (otherwise, we would have to cover like… 1/8th? of the land mass in just one DD).

Countries
Countries.png

Russia is divided into several Principalities in 1337. The dominant one probably is Muscovy, as its Grand Prince, Ivan I Danilovich ‘Kalita’ (‘Moneybag’) is also Prince of Nizhny Novgorod and Kostroma, and of Novgorod (by election, in this case). He also holds the title of Grand Prince of Vladimir, bestowed by the Khan of the Golden Horde, which makes him the ruler enforcing the ‘Tatar Yoke’ over other Russian Principalities (which in our game is represented through an IO; the coloring of the different countries is different tones of yellow as they are tributaries of the Yoke). The other main power in the region is the Grand Republic of Novgorod, with a completely different institutional structure, that allows them to pick their rulers. Their power comes from being the main trading power between the Baltic Sea and the Russian region, and it’s the overlord of two border countries, the Principality of Pskov, and the County of Oreshek, a buffer country in Karelia, as agreed with Sweden after a recent war. Several lands to the north and east are not owned by any country. As a final note, you may also see that Lithuania is the overlord of some of the principalities, some of them directly through Gediminid rulers (Polotsk or Vitebsk), while other over Rurikovich rulers (Smolensk or Rzhev).

Muscovy.png

Tatar Yoke.png

The starting diplomatic of Muscovy and the Tatar Yoke IO, for the sake of clarity.

Dynasties
Dynasties.png

Several branches of the House of Rurik rule over the Russian lands. Fun fact: we have 18 different branches portrayed in the game. The exceptions are a few principalities, and the ruler of Karelia, Prince Narimantas of the Lithuanian Gediminids. Also, the 'Cherdyn' and 'Vyatka' are randomly assigned dynasties, as we haven't been able to get the data for those countries on 1337.

Locations
Locations.png

We’re showing a less detailed region this week because, well, Russia is big. Feel free to ask for more detailed screenshots of specific areas, and I’ll try to provide them. We’re also showing some parts of the Steppe, Finland, and Kola, because of the scale of the map; take them as ‘unavoidable spoilers’, as we’ll talk more in-depth about them in future Tinto Maps.

Provinces
Provinces.png

The provinces of Russia. As usual, suggestions are welcomed!

Terrain
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain map modes. As discussed in previous Tinto Maps, we’ll read carefully your feedback, as we have plenty of room to polish them!

Cultures
Cultures.png

Cultures! As in other regions, we decided to have three different cultures in the Russian region, Novgorodian, Muscovite, and Severian. The design here is different than in the Ruthenian region, because Russia was more politically divided in the High Middle Ages, and would later be more culturally unified later on, while in Ruthenia, the situation would be the opposite. In any case, the four of them are East Slavic cultures, and we're open to feedback, of course. Apart from that, there are a bunch of different cultures bordering the region: Karelian, Pomor, Komi, Udmurt, etc. We might add some more minorities of these cultures, in the feedback pass after this DD. Also, take into account that the minorities over the Tatar lands (currently under the Kazani and Mishary cultures) are not yet done.

Religions
Religion.png

Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant in the region, although there are other religions in the area, as well; take ‘Animist’, ‘Tengrist’, and ‘Shamanist’ as wide categories, as we’d like to add a bit more granularity for them (although that will come later this year, don’t expect them to be added in the coming Tinto Maps, but maybe on the later ones). We’ve already seen some posts asking about Slavic Paganism; up until now, we’ve considered the Russian people to be Christianized, even if it was a more or less superficial process. If you’d like us to add this religion and some percentage of the population adhering to it, then I’d ask you for specific sources that could help us portray it (so, isolated references to it being followed here or there won’t be helpful, while academic sources saying ‘up to X% of the population was following Slavic rites’ might very much be).

Raw Materials
Raw Materials.png

Quite different resources to other regions previously shown, with plenty of Lumber, Fur, and Wild Game in this region. I’ve also extended a bit the screenshot to the east, so you can see the mineral richnesses of the Ural Mountains, with plenty of locations with Copper, Iron, Gold, and Lead, making it quite juicy to colonize.

Markets
Markets.png

The counter to the richness of the natural resources of the region is its integration into the different markets, which at the start of the game are centered around Novgorod, Moscow, and Kazan. Fully exploiting the economic possibilities of Russia will therefore require effort and patience.

Country and Location population
Country Population.png

Location Population SW.png

Location Population SE.png


Location Population NE.png

Location Population NW.png

Not many people inhabit the Russian core, approximately 6M in total. This poses a series of challenges regarding the expansion of any Russian country. Also, we've divided into 4 different maps of the location population of the region, to make it possible to visualize. A side note: you might note that the population of NW Novgorod and Karelia is calculated a bit differently. That's because Johan took care of drawing the Scandinavian map in an early stage of development, and the Content Design team took over the rest of Russia at a later stage when we had already refined a bit more our population calculation methods. This means that when we do the feedback pass after this Tinto Maps, in a few weeks, we'll homogenize the style, as well.

And this is all for today! We hope that you’ll find it interesting, and give us great feedback! Next week we’re traveling to Carpathia and the Balkans! See you!
 
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1.I suggest moving border of arctic and continental climates a bit to the north. I don't know about the rest, but Vologda is NOT as cold as, let's say, Arkhangelsk, trust me.
2. Will there be regular druzhinas available to the russian states?
3.Will there be achievement like "Kinslayer" from Eu4?
4. Will there be possible for Russian principalities to form a coalition against the Horde, like IRL?
5. I, again, only suggest, to replace some production with Fiber Crops production, because hemp and flax were somewhat popular in Middle Ages Russia.
6.Will Tver reign supreme?
actualy idea of coalition agianst Hords is quite accurate and good in terms of making them overpowered
 
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I have a question do countries have ranks(county/duchy/kingdom/empire) and if yes are they set in stone and cannot be changed or can I start as a city state and then promote this city into an empire?
 
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I have some feedback on the cultural mapmode in Russia, mostly focused on the Volga near the edge of the Russian region. I know we were told to only focus on the Russian heartlands, but the Volga bend is close enough for it to matter. The first thing I'd like to see added is a new Chuvash culture, which I have shown in red. The Chuvash are a Oghur Turkic ethnic group, notably they're the only Oghur language still alive today. Because of this the Chuvash language is completely unintelligible with all Shaz Turkic languages, notably including Tatar and Bashkir. They're quite a significant ethnic group and should definitely be added, though note that the border I drew isn't the actual linguistic border.

The second culture I'd like to see added are the Moksha, who are a Mordvinic people who are often lumped together with the Erzya. This is because they are both Mordvinic speaking people's speaking similar Uralic languages, however the two languages are not mutually intelligible. I do have to applaud Paradox for not calling it a united "Morvin" culture, however sadly half of all Morvins were just forgotten about as the Moksha are weirdly absent. I have coloured them orange and they are directly below the Erzya, as they live just south of them.

Edit: Because Erzya culture is misplaced in game, Moksha culture should be moved alongside it to be west of Kazan.

Another change that should be made is to the Ingrian culture, as they're very hard to see in game. Ingrian and Karelian have almost identical map colours, which is especially annoying because they border eachother. I'd recommend changing them to Navy, as it would make them easy to distinguish them from the Karelians, while also making their colour similar to the turquoise of the Estonians.

Also, I have a question about the Pomor; are they considered Slavic, Uralic or a bit of both? As they're an ethnic group of Slavic settlers in the region who came from Novgorod. However, they're genetically Uralic in what seems to be a bit of an anthropological mystery. So I wonder how that will be represented in game, as they're a Slavic people with a Uralic origin.
1. We already have Chuvash and Moksha cultures, although we will review their position, as that of the Erzya one.
2. Good note on the similar coloring of Ingrian and Karelian, we'll take a look at that.
3. Pomor is considered a Slavic-speaking culture.
 
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We aren't planning for that; probably, there will be thousands of rivers in the game.
Well, I don't ask for all of them, but the most important ones, those which can have a real impact on the economy, strategy, etc. With the size of the map, with all those locations I was hoping to finally get the main River and Mountain names.

Maybe modable as part of the province/location details window?
 
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We usually take into account linguistics for cultural division. So, 'Novgorodian' portrays the 'Northern dialects' of Eastern Rus, 'Muscovite' the 'Central dialects', and 'Severian' the 'Southern dialects'. But take this as an open answer; I think that there might be reasons to unify the culture into 'Russian', and also to further subdivide it (as another person pointed out on the previous page); we'll review all the informed opinions on the matter after a while, and make a decision regarding that that feel appropriate both for historical and game-logical reasons. Thanks for the input, by the way. ;)
So why slavic population in Vyatka presented as Muscovite ? Vyatka was founded by Novgorodians. And even still Vyatka dialect have some archaic linguistic forms, so i guess it more correct to make Vyatka Novgorodian culture.
Sources:
- Encylopedia of Vyatka Land V.8 p.244
- Whole Tale of the Vyatka Country (~XVIII century) 1905 edition.
 
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I think using historical names like Muscovy is way more immersive and should always be done if possible.
Both versions are historical. :D

Difference comes from different sources, russian sources would just call rhe country "Moscow" (or "Moscow principality\duchy"), after the capital city, while western would use latinised version "Muscovy".
 
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Am I bonkers, or are there two different colours of Lumber in the goods map? It looks like the Lumber in the south is a different colour.

Edit: Nevermind, looks like all the goods in the south are lightly shaded for some reason.
Sometimes there is a weird mapmode behavior when I take the screenshot, and I have the pointer over something (like, in this case, the Golden Horde). I'll just replace the screenshot, thanks for reporting.
 
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Suggestion of changes:
A principality appears in the North (Vym/
Vychegda) is a mostly pagan country paying tribute to Novgorod.


Perm should lose the northern and southern lands because it did not control them.
The Udmurts control the land below Vyatka and are tributaries of the Golden Horde.
The Undmurts will be represented by the duchy of Karin.


The Mari principalities control the lands above Kazan.

Countries (1).png
 
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View attachment 1155240

Why is this culture named Kazani and not Tatar?
Tatar yoke was named after them.
"Tatar" (as well as "Turk") has historically applied to a bunch of different (and often not closely related) cultures. It was actually the Soviets that came along and imposed a number of top-down ethnonyms to distinguish between the various groups. Sometimes with irrendentist intentions, Caucasian Tatars were renamed to "Azerbaijani" since they spoke the same language as their neighbors to the south in Iran.
Nowadays Volga Tatars are thought of as the Tatars, but historically they were just one of these groups (even to this day there are Crimean Tatars, Siberian Tatars, Volga Tatars, etc.), and were also often refered to as Kazan Tatars, hence the term "Kazani", which I find suitable.

Also, the Tatar Yoke refers to the Golden Horde, who started out as just a division of the Mongol Empire but whose ruling class later took on Cuman customs (including Islam).
 
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I understand that it’s kinda hard to represent them since there wasn’t too much information on the edges of the Russian heartland, but I was kinda hoping for the Vic3 type system for colonization where there are no “uncolonized” provinces but rather decentralized territories that represent people still lived there. Will this system be represented in the new world or is project Caesar going with the uncolonized land system?
 
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Btw, Great Perm should probably be a tributary of Novgorod if it already isn't. And yeah, it was historically often called "Great" Perm, not just Perm.

Edit: As mentioned above, the distinction is important because ”Little Perm” exists as a separate entity
 
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We have several 'Tatar' cultures, Kazani is just one of them.
But they are a Tatars, like English subculture is a part of English(with Northumbrian) culture. Or French being part of French culture group. Why not name them Londoners and Parisians?
 
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Finally, I would like to ask what the small spread of Tengriist pops on the religion mapmade represents. They do not align well with the culture map, and whatever the "Pomors" are they don't seem related to the steppe people, and some are in locations that are marked Novgorodian on the culture map! Is this an oversight, or is there historical basis for some Russians in the far backwater of Novgorod abandoning Christianity and "going native" in their religious practices.
I am fairly sure it's just the natives, who probably should not be Tengriist proper. Maybe there are more than one Samoyedic cultures, so that Pomors are culturally the plurality but the natives combined outnumber them.
It's a convention, one of the two possible ways of naming the country: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Moscow . BTW, although it's not displayed in the map, the full dynamic country name is 'Grand Principality of Muscovy'.

But we're open to feedback, if the community thinks that Moscow is more appropriate as the English form than Muscovy.
I think Moscow is more Moscow the city, and Muscovy should be kept.
I'm not opposed to making them their own culture, but it might be redundant given it'll be tied to the Cossack social class anyways. If they do make them their own culture, it should probably work by having Cossack culture pops slowly appear and then a new social class being formed.
Same goes with Turkomans, the nomadic Turks, they are their own culture so there is precedent for Cossacks I think.
You seem knowledgeable about this area, maybe you could draw a modified version of the culture map to help correct misplacements? Great comment by the way.
Also, I have a question about the Pomor; are they considered Slavic, Uralic or a bit of both? As they're an ethnic group of Slavic settlers in the region who came from Novgorod. However, they're genetically Uralic in what seems to be a bit of an anthropological mystery. So I wonder how that will be represented in game, as they're a Slavic people with a Uralic origin.
Genetics should almost never matter for determining culture groups in my opinion. Customs and languages are more important.
We definitely want the Cossacks to be portrayed somehow in the game, although we have yet to decide exactly how.
I think the consistent option is to make them their own culture as with the Turkomans, formed in the Wild Fields in the sixteenth century.
View attachment 1155240

Why is this culture named Kazani and not Tatar?
Tatar yoke was named after them.
Mishars and Crimean Tatars are also Tatars, as well as Siberian Tatars. Plus, Azerbaijanis, Chulyms and a whole bunch of other Turkic-Mongolic groups were called Tatar back then. It is a really generic term.
I have a question do countries have ranks(county/duchy/kingdom/empire) and if yes are they set in stone and cannot be changed or can I start as a city state and then promote this city into an empire?
Yes, government ranks have been confirmed in a Tinto Talks thread.
We have several 'Tatar' cultures, Kazani is just one of them.
1) Can you name which Tatar groups are in? I know Crimean Tatars probably are, but I would love to see Siberian Tatars too?
2) Are there any minorities in Russia that are not visible in the map? Any Jews perhaps, or small Slavic/Baltic/Uralic groups?
 
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I remember discussing this matter during the map development, and apparently Chernigov/Chernihiv was under the loose rule of the Golden Horde, but the sources do not paint a very clear situation in this period around the Dnieper Bend, to be honest.
Wouldn't it make sense to represent this as Chernigov being a vassal? Especially as we have the Mikhailovich (Olgovichi) princes of Chernigov from the period.
 
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I understand that it’s kinda hard to represent them since there wasn’t too much information on the edges of the Russian heartland, but I was kinda hoping for the Vic3 type system for colonization where there are no “uncolonized” provinces but rather decentralized territories that represent people still lived there. Will this system be represented in the new world or is project Caesar going with the uncolonized land system?
That there are locations not under the control of a country at the start of the game doesn't mean that people don't live there; you might notice that those locations have their populations, with their own cultures. We will talk more in the future about how colonization works in our game.
 
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Do locations with more Pixels have higher population capacity or are all locations the same base regardless of size?
It would be kinda weird to have the small Italian Locations have the same capacity as large farmland rich Russian or Carpathian locations
 
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Mishars and Crimean Tatars are also Tatars, as well as Siberian Tatars. Plus, Azerbaijanis, Chulyms and a whole bunch of other Turkic-Mongolic groups were called Tatar back then. It is a really generic term.
But, the Tatarstan living in Tatarstan are only just Tatars. It's like naming French culture Parisian because it's French people that live near Paris.
 
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It's a convention, one of the two possible ways of naming the country: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Moscow . BTW, although it's not displayed in the map, the full dynamic country name is 'Grand Principality of Muscovy'.

But we're open to feedback, if the community thinks that Moscow is more appropriate as the English form than Muscovy.

Muscovy sounds much cooler, and feels like a Paradox staple at this point - EU3 and EU4 both used it, and EU2 used the similar Muscowy
 
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I have made a thread about this in the past but could we finally move on from a monocultural "finnish" identity that arguably didn't exist until the 1850's?
The 'finns' were:
-linguistically different. It should be a gradual progress threw events etc. The written finnish language was invented in 1543 which was Mikael Agricola's ABC-kiria and it was based on the dialect of the coastal/tavastian regions.

-tribe wise different. This can be seen even today in the finnish eastern DNA and western DNA being MORE different than the difference between SOUTHERN ITALIANS and HUNGARIANS genetically. There should be the Ostrobothinian, Finns-proper, Tavastians and Savolaxians. (unifying them should be the goal of any released finland or sweden/russia to pacify the region, in 1809 and with the creation of the first finnish entity these tribal loyalties etc. practically finally came to an end and even then there was conflict between karelians and the nationalism of the then brand new finnish identity leading to the later karelianism and Suur-Suomi ideas and the resulting kinshipwars with the goal of uniting all of the heimot)

-Tribes acted usually very practically and had agency. Multiple tribes were hustling and playing the swedes against the russians and vice versa. There was a certain balance of power in the region at this time. This slowly broke down as the finnish tribes kept losing their autonomy. For example the tavastians were aligned with the swedes, but the karelians were more in the pocket of Novgorod and later Muscovy.
 
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