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Tinto Maps #8 - 28th of June 2024 - Russia

Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Maps! This week we’ll be taking a look at Russia!

As an introductory note, we’re just considering today the ‘Russian core’, which in 1337 comprised the different Russian Principalities, as far as the White Sea to the north, and the Ural Mountains to the east. The lands that would later be incorporated into the Russian Empire will be covered in future Tinto Maps (otherwise, we would have to cover like… 1/8th? of the land mass in just one DD).

Countries
Countries.png

Russia is divided into several Principalities in 1337. The dominant one probably is Muscovy, as its Grand Prince, Ivan I Danilovich ‘Kalita’ (‘Moneybag’) is also Prince of Nizhny Novgorod and Kostroma, and of Novgorod (by election, in this case). He also holds the title of Grand Prince of Vladimir, bestowed by the Khan of the Golden Horde, which makes him the ruler enforcing the ‘Tatar Yoke’ over other Russian Principalities (which in our game is represented through an IO; the coloring of the different countries is different tones of yellow as they are tributaries of the Yoke). The other main power in the region is the Grand Republic of Novgorod, with a completely different institutional structure, that allows them to pick their rulers. Their power comes from being the main trading power between the Baltic Sea and the Russian region, and it’s the overlord of two border countries, the Principality of Pskov, and the County of Oreshek, a buffer country in Karelia, as agreed with Sweden after a recent war. Several lands to the north and east are not owned by any country. As a final note, you may also see that Lithuania is the overlord of some of the principalities, some of them directly through Gediminid rulers (Polotsk or Vitebsk), while other over Rurikovich rulers (Smolensk or Rzhev).

Muscovy.png

Tatar Yoke.png

The starting diplomatic of Muscovy and the Tatar Yoke IO, for the sake of clarity.

Dynasties
Dynasties.png

Several branches of the House of Rurik rule over the Russian lands. Fun fact: we have 18 different branches portrayed in the game. The exceptions are a few principalities, and the ruler of Karelia, Prince Narimantas of the Lithuanian Gediminids. Also, the 'Cherdyn' and 'Vyatka' are randomly assigned dynasties, as we haven't been able to get the data for those countries on 1337.

Locations
Locations.png

We’re showing a less detailed region this week because, well, Russia is big. Feel free to ask for more detailed screenshots of specific areas, and I’ll try to provide them. We’re also showing some parts of the Steppe, Finland, and Kola, because of the scale of the map; take them as ‘unavoidable spoilers’, as we’ll talk more in-depth about them in future Tinto Maps.

Provinces
Provinces.png

The provinces of Russia. As usual, suggestions are welcomed!

Terrain
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain map modes. As discussed in previous Tinto Maps, we’ll read carefully your feedback, as we have plenty of room to polish them!

Cultures
Cultures.png

Cultures! As in other regions, we decided to have three different cultures in the Russian region, Novgorodian, Muscovite, and Severian. The design here is different than in the Ruthenian region, because Russia was more politically divided in the High Middle Ages, and would later be more culturally unified later on, while in Ruthenia, the situation would be the opposite. In any case, the four of them are East Slavic cultures, and we're open to feedback, of course. Apart from that, there are a bunch of different cultures bordering the region: Karelian, Pomor, Komi, Udmurt, etc. We might add some more minorities of these cultures, in the feedback pass after this DD. Also, take into account that the minorities over the Tatar lands (currently under the Kazani and Mishary cultures) are not yet done.

Religions
Religion.png

Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant in the region, although there are other religions in the area, as well; take ‘Animist’, ‘Tengrist’, and ‘Shamanist’ as wide categories, as we’d like to add a bit more granularity for them (although that will come later this year, don’t expect them to be added in the coming Tinto Maps, but maybe on the later ones). We’ve already seen some posts asking about Slavic Paganism; up until now, we’ve considered the Russian people to be Christianized, even if it was a more or less superficial process. If you’d like us to add this religion and some percentage of the population adhering to it, then I’d ask you for specific sources that could help us portray it (so, isolated references to it being followed here or there won’t be helpful, while academic sources saying ‘up to X% of the population was following Slavic rites’ might very much be).

Raw Materials
Raw Materials.png

Quite different resources to other regions previously shown, with plenty of Lumber, Fur, and Wild Game in this region. I’ve also extended a bit the screenshot to the east, so you can see the mineral richnesses of the Ural Mountains, with plenty of locations with Copper, Iron, Gold, and Lead, making it quite juicy to colonize.

Markets
Markets.png

The counter to the richness of the natural resources of the region is its integration into the different markets, which at the start of the game are centered around Novgorod, Moscow, and Kazan. Fully exploiting the economic possibilities of Russia will therefore require effort and patience.

Country and Location population
Country Population.png

Location Population SW.png

Location Population SE.png


Location Population NE.png

Location Population NW.png

Not many people inhabit the Russian core, approximately 6M in total. This poses a series of challenges regarding the expansion of any Russian country. Also, we've divided into 4 different maps of the location population of the region, to make it possible to visualize. A side note: you might note that the population of NW Novgorod and Karelia is calculated a bit differently. That's because Johan took care of drawing the Scandinavian map in an early stage of development, and the Content Design team took over the rest of Russia at a later stage when we had already refined a bit more our population calculation methods. This means that when we do the feedback pass after this Tinto Maps, in a few weeks, we'll homogenize the style, as well.

And this is all for today! We hope that you’ll find it interesting, and give us great feedback! Next week we’re traveling to Carpathia and the Balkans! See you!
 
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As others have noted, it is odd that the Mordvins are not present in their heartlands in the provinces of Alatyr and Sarov. I am also suprised at the absence of the Chuvash who should be present in Cheboksary, Alatyr, Simbirsk and Kazan provinces. I guess this is what you were talking about when you said you haven't yet added the minorities for Kazan.

I'll point out that Meschera should still be present north of the Oka River. They may have been a minority. The nobility had been assimilated, but not the hunters and fishers. Probably at least some of them were pagans, as a monastery was founded in the 16th century to convert them. I wouldn't mind you combining them with Moksha and Erzya into a singular Mordvin culture.

I have no sources, but if there are Norse pops in 1337, Russia should absolutely have some Slavic pagan pops in my opinion.
 
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Could you provide a screenshot of the political map with rivers?

Could you add the principalities of Mari?
Can the Permian culture be divided into two?
Zyrians
Is there another map mode that shows actual terrain like rivers? It’d be cool if that map mode was conventionally used during wars/battles, maybe overlayed with borders
Regarding rivers, it's because of the zoom (I had to zoom out to be able to cover the whole region, and at that zoom level, there aren't rivers shown).

Regarding the culture suggestions, we'll take a look at them!
 
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I think this is the weirdest part, for me anyway. If they've separated Ruthenian culture so that it could later diverge into Ukrainian and Byelorussian, then that means they've already got mechanics to allows divergent cultures to appear.

Then why not add the same mechanic to the entirety of eastern Slavic lands. Let them all start as Russian (Rus', Ruthenian, whatever name would be politically correct in the contemporary Europe) culture, then get dynamically separated over the course of the game. You could even make it so that they separate depending on the tag that the pops live under. If under a non East slavic tag they diverge dynamically into Ukrainian (under Poland) and Byelorussian (under Lithuania). Or they separate (probably over a longer period of time) into tag-named cultures if living under an east Slavic tag (e.g. Muscovites under Moscow, Tverians under Tver, etc).

That would both be realistic, historically accurate, and add an interesting gameplay layer to try to rush Russian lands' unification (that historically wouldn't take centuries) to reap benefits of having a unified culture across your realm.
You find notion that there was single unified culture on lands 1000 km long more historically accurate than what was presented? In medieval world where neighboring village can speak different dialect because fastest way for peasant to travel is his own two legs and there is not much in communication department?
 
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How does empire building works here (and in general)?

Are we going to see the, with all respect, strange design decision to make Russia the only viable outcome of playing in the region?

I understand Russia is a formable, as it should be, but please don't make Russia the way to unite the region. If I'm playing one of the minors, chances are that I'm trying to create an alternate outcome for the region, and then being more or less forced into playing what I'm trying to distance my self from is not exactly enjoyable design.

Otherwise great work as always :)

EDIT: Russian patriots seems better at disagreeing than actually arguing against my fairly reasonable claim :D
 
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what was the process that led the team to add "Severian" culture? and lastly how dificult would it be to unify the Russian principalities?
I think it's based on language and supposed to represent the transition dialects between Muscovite and Ruthenian (plus I think "Grand Duke of Severia" was a title), kind of awkward since it should eventually be subsumed to either Ruthenian or Muscovite culture depending on who controls what. You're even seeing some people here complain that bits and bobs of it should be ceded to Ruthenian.
But what are the Novgorodian, Muscovite, and Severian supposed to symbolize?
Novgorodian being represented is definitely sensible. While it was already at this time being subsumed by the Muscovian dialect, it used to be way more divergent, definitely on its way to becoming the 4th (or I guess 3rd since Ruthenian was still a single thing at this time) East Slavic language, some linguists even propose it might've been part of an hypothetical North Slavic branch instead.
idk if Pomors should be their own group, I think they could be simulated by having small amounts of Novgoridian culture pops hanging on for the entirety of the game's timeline.

Severian is kind of awkward as aforementioned. It's arguably anachronistic but imo it could definitely just be split between Muscovite and Ruthenian and few people would complain. If it is to continue existing it should definitely be shifted a bit though to include places like Chernihiv though.

I see some people say the split of Ruthenian into Ukrainian and Belarusian should be simulated somehow... I find this unecessary, the two groups were lumped together all the way up until the January Uprising which will most likely be way after the game's timeline ends.
 
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Locations
View attachment 1154683
We’re showing a less detailed region this week because, well, Russia is big. Feel free to ask for more detailed screenshots of specific areas, and I’ll try to provide them. We’re also showing some parts of the Steppe, Finland, and Kola, because of the scale of the map; take them as ‘unavoidable spoilers’, as we’ll talk more in-depth about them in future Tinto Maps.
I see a lot of locations in Tatar lands is named in Russian. Is it a made choice or the alternate names will be appreciated?
 
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"Time to start flame about Eastern Slavic cultures. 3 second before start of flame... 2... 1... go!"
Let's go! :)

I'm truly uncertain about the cultures... Don't they look far-fetched? The Rutenian culture is incredibly important. It allows us to simulate the real historical process, showing how the Ukrainian and Belarusian identities developed in western Rus. But what are the Novgorodian, Muscovite, and Severian supposed to symbolize? Moscow's expansion is only beginning, so why are the surrounding principalities, even hostile ones like Tver, also labeled as Muscovite? Honestly, this feels like a gamey choice, and I believe the Caesar project shines best when it leans on history, not when it tries to fit history into gameplay.

We have a wealth of historical data indicating that in the 14th century, the Eastern and Western Rus languages began to diverge into two distinct languages. From the Western language, Ukrainian and Belarusian would later emerge. However, there was no significant split in the Eastern Rus language. Yes, there were various dialects, but the differences were minor.

I understand that portraying the cultures of 14th century Rus is a complex issue. Due to the assimilation efforts by Moscow later on, many cultures did not survive to the present day. But wouldn't unified Rus culture be better choise? Similar to the case with Ruthenia? This would be a simplification, but a logical one, unlike the invented cultures of the Muscovite, Severian, and Novgorodian. It might disrupt the balance, as there would be a large, unified culture in this region from the start. But wouldn't that make the region more unique? And this uniqueness would be dictated by history, not gameplay reasons, which I see as a win. We already have a historical political division in the region. Is it worth putting an artificial cultural division on top of it?

As an alternative, I would make several cultures in the region, but mix them up in the locations. We will take the peoples who lived on this territory before the emergence of Kievan Rus, and show that during its short existence, the principality did not assimilate all these people (as in reality it was). There will be several cultures in the region, and while playing in this region, the player will have to assimilate them. But the player will face this task when playing for any principality, be it Moscow, Tver or Novgorod. And it won’t be that Novgorod will start with its unique Novgorodian culture, and Moscow with its Muscovite...

In any case, I am not a historian, just an enthusiast. But as someone with a great interest in this region, the cultures currently presented in the game seem contradictory and illogical to me... Perhaps someone more knowledgeable could provide a better alternative.
We usually take into account linguistics for cultural division. So, 'Novgorodian' portrays the 'Northern dialects' of Eastern Rus, 'Muscovite' the 'Central dialects', and 'Severian' the 'Southern dialects'. But take this as an open answer; I think that there might be reasons to unify the culture into 'Russian', and also to further subdivide it (as another person pointed out on the previous page); we'll review all the informed opinions on the matter after a while, and make a decision regarding that that feel appropriate both for historical and game-logical reasons. Thanks for the input, by the way. ;)
 
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Regarding rivers, it's because of the zoom (I had to zoom out to be able to cover the whole region, and at that zoom level, there aren't rivers shown).

Regarding the culture suggestions, we'll take a look at them!
Could you maybe show us a zommed in screenshot so we can see an example of a river?
 
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Vepsian culture near Onega should be slightly moved to the west, this area had vepsian majority up to 19th century (map for reference)View attachment 1155072
Mari and Erzya should be west of Kazan and Kazani culture not East of them, there is even city Mokshan on the map, which was named after word "Moksha" - (brother language of Erzyan) but it is placed as Kazani culture
View attachment 1155086
View attachment 1155082
While we are at a Mari: I read a documentary a while ago, that there is still to this day a notable minority of Mari following a nature-religion / pagan beliefs. Would they count as animist or shaman and shouldn't there me more of them @1337?
 
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You note the low total population of Russia despite its vast size. Could the player bring Russia's population density up to that of Western Europe with enough effort or are there barriers to that in the farming system?
There are ways to increase a country's population density, but there also are some geographical caps to it.
 
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Two things:
1. If Russia unifies, it should also unify the culture. Idk what cultures are consistent of in PC, but it should matter who unifies the Russia. If it Novgorod, then Novgorodian things should be the core of Russian culture/state, if Muscovy, then Muscovian.
2. Location of Neva, where St. Petersburg will be is notorious for being a marshland. Tos this day St. Petersburg is being mocked (in a joking way) to being built on a swamp. So the terrain of nearby St. Petersburg should reflect this thing.

EDIT: Please be notified to use proper transliteration of Russian names. Because if you will transliterate Семён as Semen again, not Semyon (or Semjon), then that'll be sad, considering the effort that was put into the research
 
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I think that for the Veps, Ingrians (Izhorians) and Karelians you can comfortably add the religion of Baltic Finnic Paganism, which could be used in other baltic finnic peoples (finns and estonians) too. It would replace the "animism" you currently use for Veps as shown on the religion mapmode, though at this point in time the Veps should probably be majority orthodox thanks to Novgorodian missionary activity.

Basic introduction is on Wikipedia of course: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Finnic_paganism

In other PDX games you've used various names such as Suomenusko or Ukonusko which are neologisms, both used by neo-pagans. I think Ukonusko works fine, meaning "Belief in Ukko" who is recorded as the main god of thunder. Suomenusko is a very finnish-centric name which rubs me the wrong way.

Alternatively, you go the Sami Shamanism route and use "Finnic Shamanism" as a name, avoiding neologisms entirely.

Edit: I noted the Erzya are marked as animist for some reason while other volga finnic peoples are marked as shamanist, while you will probably make a better religion for them in the future at least put them in the same placeholder religion lol
 
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Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Maps! This week we’ll be taking a look at Russia!

As an introductory note, we’re just considering today the ‘Russian core’, which in 1337 comprised the different Russian Principalities, as far as the White Sea to the north, and the Ural Mountains to the east. The lands that would later be incorporated into the Russian Empire will be covered in future Tinto Maps (otherwise, we would have to cover like… 1/8th? of the land mass in just one DD).

Countries
View attachment 1154677
Russia is divided into several Principalities in 1337. The dominant one probably is Muscovy, as its Grand Prince, Ivan I Danilovich ‘Kalita’ (‘Moneybag’) is also Prince of Nizhny Novgorod and Kostroma, and of Novgorod (by election, in this case). He also holds the title of Grand Prince of Vladimir, bestowed by the Khan of the Golden Horde, which makes him the ruler enforcing the ‘Tatar Yoke’ over other Russian Principalities (which in our game is represented through an IO; the coloring of the different countries is different tones of yellow as they are tributaries of the Yoke). The other main power in the region is the Grand Republic of Novgorod, with a completely different institutional structure, that allows them to pick their rulers. Their power comes from being the main trading power between the Baltic Sea and the Russian region, and it’s the overlord of two border countries, the Principality of Pskov, and the County of Oreshek, a buffer country in Karelia, as agreed with Sweden after a recent war. Several lands to the north and east are not owned by any country. As a final note, you may also see that Lithuania is the overlord of some of the principalities, some of them directly through Gediminid rulers (Polotsk or Vitebsk), while other over Rurikovich rulers (Smolensk or Rzhev).

View attachment 1154678
View attachment 1155164
The starting diplomatic of Muscovy and the Tatar Yoke IO, for the sake of clarity.

Dynasties
View attachment 1154695
Several branches of the House of Rurik rule over the Russian lands. Fun fact: we have 18 different branches portrayed in the game. The exceptions are a few principalities, and the ruler of Karelia, Prince Narimantas of the Lithuanian Gediminids. Also, the 'Cherdyn' and 'Vyatka' are randomly assigned dynasties, as we haven't been able to get the data for those countries on 1337.

Locations
View attachment 1154683
We’re showing a less detailed region this week because, well, Russia is big. Feel free to ask for more detailed screenshots of specific areas, and I’ll try to provide them. We’re also showing some parts of the Steppe, Finland, and Kola, because of the scale of the map; take them as ‘unavoidable spoilers’, as we’ll talk more in-depth about them in future Tinto Maps.

Provinces
View attachment 1154684
The provinces of Russia. As usual, suggestions are welcomed!

Terrain
View attachment 1154685
View attachment 1154686
View attachment 1154687
Terrain map modes. As discussed in previous Tinto Maps, we’ll read carefully your feedback, as we have plenty of room to polish them!

Cultures
View attachment 1154688
Cultures! As in other regions, we decided to have three different cultures in the Russian region, Novgorodian, Muscovite, and Severian. The design here is different than in the Ruthenian region, because Russia was more politically divided in the High Middle Ages, and would later be more culturally unified later on, while in Ruthenia, the situation would be the opposite. In any case, the four of them are East Slavic cultures, and we're open to feedback, of course. Apart from that, there are a bunch of different cultures bordering the region: Karelian, Pomor, Komi, Udmurt, etc. We might add some more minorities of these cultures, in the feedback pass after this DD. Also, take into account that the minorities over the Tatar lands (currently under the Kazani and Mishary cultures) are not yet done.

Religions
View attachment 1154689
Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant in the region, although there are other religions in the area, as well; take ‘Animist’, ‘Tengrist’, and ‘Shamanist’ as wide categories, as we’d like to add a bit more granularity for them (although that will come later this year, don’t expect them to be added in the coming Tinto Maps, but maybe on the later ones). We’ve already seen some posts asking about Slavic Paganism; up until now, we’ve considered the Russian people to be Christianized, even if it was a more or less superficial process. If you’d like us to add this religion and some percentage of the population adhering to it, then I’d ask you for specific sources that could help us portray it (so, isolated references to it being followed here or there won’t be helpful, while academic sources saying ‘up to X% of the population was following Slavic rites’ might very much be).

Raw Materials
View attachment 1154691
Quite different resources to other regions previously shown, with plenty of Lumber, Fur, and Wild Game in this region. I’ve also extended a bit the screenshot to the east, so you can see the mineral richnesses of the Ural Mountains, with plenty of locations with Copper, Iron, Gold, and Lead, making it quite juicy to colonize.

Markets
View attachment 1154965
The counter to the richness of the natural resources of the region is its integration into the different markets, which at the start of the game are centered around Novgorod, Moscow, and Kazan. Fully exploiting the economic possibilities of Russia will therefore require effort and patience.

Country and Location population
View attachment 1154693
View attachment 1154984
View attachment 1154985

View attachment 1154987
View attachment 1154990
Not many people inhabit the Russian core, approximately 6M in total. This poses a series of challenges regarding the expansion of any Russian country. Also, we've divided into 4 different maps of the location population of the region, to make it possible to visualize. A side note: you might note that the population of NW Novgorod and Karelia is calculated a bit differently. That's because Johan took care of drawing the Scandinavian map in an early stage of development, and the Content Design team took over the rest of Russia at a later stage when we had already refined a bit more our population calculation methods. This means that when we do the feedback pass after this Tinto Maps, in a few weeks, we'll homogenize the style, as well.

And this is all for today! We hope that you’ll find it interesting, and give us great feedback! Next week we’re traveling to Carpathia and the Balkans! See you!
So unless the Novgorod-muscovy situation is unique, it sounds like some republics can elect leaders from other countries, leading to republic-monarchy or maybe even republic-republic PUs. I wonder how republics choose who to elect?
 
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We usually take into account linguistics for cultural division. So, 'Novgorodian' portrays the 'Northern dialects' of Eastern Rus, 'Muscovite' the 'Central dialects', and 'Severian' the 'Southern dialects'. But take this as an open answer; I think that there might be reasons to unify the culture into 'Russian', and also to further subdivide it (as another person pointed out on the previous page); we'll review all the informed opinions on the matter after a while, and make a decision regarding that that feel appropriate both for historical and game-logical reasons. Thanks for the input, by the way. ;)
I think it's definitely shouldn't be subdivided. There was no strong division at all as compared to other regions in both cultural and linguistical terms.

And I think it's bad to culturally subdivide every region. It makes regions less unique. I think unified culture can bring it's own challenges too, for example competition for culture domination
 
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Now sure whether it's correct place to ask but why Chernihiv (or Chernigov) principality is shown as direct part of the Golden Horde?
I remember discussing this matter during the map development, and apparently Chernigov/Chernihiv was under the loose rule of the Golden Horde, but the sources do not paint a very clear situation in this period around the Dnieper Bend, to be honest.
 
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I don't see Volga. This is big river which can be really impassable for armies at summer in some wide places. Are you planning to take into account it?
Maybe, we'll double-check.
 
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What are the reasons for not adding all russian nations, that are not under Lithuania, into the Tatar yoke organisation?
Also, Dmitrov broke into two nations(Dmitrov and Galich) between 1280 and 1334, and in 1360 Tatars intervened into dynastic struggle (right before joining muscovy)
Maybe the content designer who added it gathered not enough data; that's why we show it, so you can help us flesh it out. ;)
 
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