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Tinto Maps #8 - 28th of June 2024 - Russia

Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Maps! This week we’ll be taking a look at Russia!

As an introductory note, we’re just considering today the ‘Russian core’, which in 1337 comprised the different Russian Principalities, as far as the White Sea to the north, and the Ural Mountains to the east. The lands that would later be incorporated into the Russian Empire will be covered in future Tinto Maps (otherwise, we would have to cover like… 1/8th? of the land mass in just one DD).

Countries
Countries.png

Russia is divided into several Principalities in 1337. The dominant one probably is Muscovy, as its Grand Prince, Ivan I Danilovich ‘Kalita’ (‘Moneybag’) is also Prince of Nizhny Novgorod and Kostroma, and of Novgorod (by election, in this case). He also holds the title of Grand Prince of Vladimir, bestowed by the Khan of the Golden Horde, which makes him the ruler enforcing the ‘Tatar Yoke’ over other Russian Principalities (which in our game is represented through an IO; the coloring of the different countries is different tones of yellow as they are tributaries of the Yoke). The other main power in the region is the Grand Republic of Novgorod, with a completely different institutional structure, that allows them to pick their rulers. Their power comes from being the main trading power between the Baltic Sea and the Russian region, and it’s the overlord of two border countries, the Principality of Pskov, and the County of Oreshek, a buffer country in Karelia, as agreed with Sweden after a recent war. Several lands to the north and east are not owned by any country. As a final note, you may also see that Lithuania is the overlord of some of the principalities, some of them directly through Gediminid rulers (Polotsk or Vitebsk), while other over Rurikovich rulers (Smolensk or Rzhev).

Muscovy.png

Tatar Yoke.png

The starting diplomatic of Muscovy and the Tatar Yoke IO, for the sake of clarity.

Dynasties
Dynasties.png

Several branches of the House of Rurik rule over the Russian lands. Fun fact: we have 18 different branches portrayed in the game. The exceptions are a few principalities, and the ruler of Karelia, Prince Narimantas of the Lithuanian Gediminids. Also, the 'Cherdyn' and 'Vyatka' are randomly assigned dynasties, as we haven't been able to get the data for those countries on 1337.

Locations
Locations.png

We’re showing a less detailed region this week because, well, Russia is big. Feel free to ask for more detailed screenshots of specific areas, and I’ll try to provide them. We’re also showing some parts of the Steppe, Finland, and Kola, because of the scale of the map; take them as ‘unavoidable spoilers’, as we’ll talk more in-depth about them in future Tinto Maps.

Provinces
Provinces.png

The provinces of Russia. As usual, suggestions are welcomed!

Terrain
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain map modes. As discussed in previous Tinto Maps, we’ll read carefully your feedback, as we have plenty of room to polish them!

Cultures
Cultures.png

Cultures! As in other regions, we decided to have three different cultures in the Russian region, Novgorodian, Muscovite, and Severian. The design here is different than in the Ruthenian region, because Russia was more politically divided in the High Middle Ages, and would later be more culturally unified later on, while in Ruthenia, the situation would be the opposite. In any case, the four of them are East Slavic cultures, and we're open to feedback, of course. Apart from that, there are a bunch of different cultures bordering the region: Karelian, Pomor, Komi, Udmurt, etc. We might add some more minorities of these cultures, in the feedback pass after this DD. Also, take into account that the minorities over the Tatar lands (currently under the Kazani and Mishary cultures) are not yet done.

Religions
Religion.png

Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant in the region, although there are other religions in the area, as well; take ‘Animist’, ‘Tengrist’, and ‘Shamanist’ as wide categories, as we’d like to add a bit more granularity for them (although that will come later this year, don’t expect them to be added in the coming Tinto Maps, but maybe on the later ones). We’ve already seen some posts asking about Slavic Paganism; up until now, we’ve considered the Russian people to be Christianized, even if it was a more or less superficial process. If you’d like us to add this religion and some percentage of the population adhering to it, then I’d ask you for specific sources that could help us portray it (so, isolated references to it being followed here or there won’t be helpful, while academic sources saying ‘up to X% of the population was following Slavic rites’ might very much be).

Raw Materials
Raw Materials.png

Quite different resources to other regions previously shown, with plenty of Lumber, Fur, and Wild Game in this region. I’ve also extended a bit the screenshot to the east, so you can see the mineral richnesses of the Ural Mountains, with plenty of locations with Copper, Iron, Gold, and Lead, making it quite juicy to colonize.

Markets
Markets.png

The counter to the richness of the natural resources of the region is its integration into the different markets, which at the start of the game are centered around Novgorod, Moscow, and Kazan. Fully exploiting the economic possibilities of Russia will therefore require effort and patience.

Country and Location population
Country Population.png

Location Population SW.png

Location Population SE.png


Location Population NE.png

Location Population NW.png

Not many people inhabit the Russian core, approximately 6M in total. This poses a series of challenges regarding the expansion of any Russian country. Also, we've divided into 4 different maps of the location population of the region, to make it possible to visualize. A side note: you might note that the population of NW Novgorod and Karelia is calculated a bit differently. That's because Johan took care of drawing the Scandinavian map in an early stage of development, and the Content Design team took over the rest of Russia at a later stage when we had already refined a bit more our population calculation methods. This means that when we do the feedback pass after this Tinto Maps, in a few weeks, we'll homogenize the style, as well.

And this is all for today! We hope that you’ll find it interesting, and give us great feedback! Next week we’re traveling to Carpathia and the Balkans! See you!
 
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We usually take into account linguistics for cultural division. So, 'Novgorodian' portrays the 'Northern dialects' of Eastern Rus, 'Muscovite' the 'Central dialects', and 'Severian' the 'Southern dialects'. But take this as an open answer; I think that there might be reasons to unify the culture into 'Russian', and also to further subdivide it (as another person pointed out on the previous page); we'll review all the informed opinions on the matter after a while, and make a decision regarding that that feel appropriate both for historical and game-logical reasons. Thanks for the input, by the way. ;)
Very sound approach overall, just some minor comments:
1) Modern grouping of Russian dialects into 3 parts is slightly anachronistic for 14th century. Old Novgorodian had many unique features separating it from all other Slavic dialects, and it had still retained a lot of its characteristics well into the 14th century, clearly separating it from other northern dialect to the east (Rostov-Suzdal). There was a long period of convergence, accelerating after the fall of Novgorod in the 15th century. Thus, it would make more sense for "Muscovite" culture to include those north-eastern areas, with Novgorodian covering western parts closer to the Baltic.
2) On the other hand, there's little evidence for any significant divergence between Southern Russian dialects and those covering modern Belarus back then (arguably, even today there's still a dialect continuum). Though considering later political developments during the game time period, it's definitely valid to represent it as two distinct cultures.
3) In my view, "Severian" is not the best name for Southern Russian culture: i's a distinct (and much smaller) historic culture with very few traces left today. I'd love to see it represented in the game, but if you're looking for a name for a wider South Russian culture, even EU4 Ryazanian sounds more appropriate ;)
 
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I haven't found an academic source which would say exactly the % of population which was slavic pagan at that time but in the book "SLAVONIC PAGAN SANCTUARIES" by Leszek Paweł Słupecki I've found this:

We shall, however, follow the mentioned historian in pointing out that
the tradition of Perynia as a cult place was long-lived. In the 17th c. Adam
Olearius (1870, p. 80-81), one of the envoys sent by prince Frederick III of
Holstein to Russia and Persia, wrote
: "The inhabitants of Novgorod, when
still pagans, had an idol called Perun, that is the god of fire, as the Russians
call fire perun. At the place where their idol had stood they erected a monastery,
which preserved the idol's name and was called Perunsky. That deity
looked like a man with [a piece ol] flint in his hand, which resembled
a thunderbolt or a ray. To worship the deity they kept a frre burning day
and night, feeding it with oak wood. And if those who served at the fire
were negligent and let the frre go out, they were punished by death
."
[...]
Although the quoted sources are late, they
should not be disregarded. The information about the fire in Perun's sanctuary was confirmed by excavations. It is also true that tJ:e Perynsky monastery was built in the place of the sanctuary. It was men~oned for tJ:e first
time in 1386,

Link

At least we know that there was an organized pagan religion since 14-17th century around Novgorod city.
 
That there are locations not under the control of a country at the start of the game doesn't mean that people don't live there; you might notice that those locations have their populations, with their own cultures. We will talk more in the future about how colonization works in our game.
I understand that the game still represents them in culture and population but it would still be better in my opinion to represent them in some form on the political map, maybe like showing the culture name covering an area of the “unclaimed” map without borders. They wouldn’t need to be playable just something as simple as them being shown in some form on the political map, as the political map at the end of the day is the map players will most likely be looking at most of the time.
 
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What's that tiny bit of Lithuania south of Trubchevsk?
 
Isn't it «Москъвь» or «Московь». And ь at that time was pronounced close to i sound. It technically makes Muscovy as the most correct name.
Muscovy comes from Moscovia, which is latinized name of the region and the state (linked in pavia's response, also you can check Moscovia (region) article in wikipedia).

Both versions are technically correct as both come from actual sources.
I'm just saying that using "Moscow" would be more consistent to the rest of the tags around and more authentic, since it's closer to original naming in russian.
 
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That there are locations not under the control of a country at the start of the game doesn't mean that people don't live there; you might notice that those locations have their populations, with their own cultures. We will talk more in the future about how colonization works in our game.
I suppose the immediate question for this is "what determines whether an area will be a low development/tribal start, or a populated but uncontrolled zone waiting to be colonized?" but I assume that's a matter for a future dev diary.
 
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As a representative of Sisified Moksha, I demand the addition of an esoteric Moksha ultra-Gnostic underground state




P.S.why is there one red cross under every post?
 
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Here are my suggestions for the Vychegda Pechora Region.
1719610093930.png


States
1719610129499.png


The sites are based on archaeological sites and their distribution in the region, and nearly every location has at least one archaeological site in it.

The names are usually in Komi instead of Russian. The Russian equivalents can be provided if need be.

Here's the culture setup for this region.
1719610151175.png

Made it so that Moksha and Erzya actually exist in their homeland since they weren't yet displaced by either Tatars or Russians that much in 1337. The exact borders might be different but the general idea is that they weren't expelled east until way later under Russian rule.

The Komi cover a huge area but that's because they inhabited this large an area. One could split it later on into Permyak and Zyriane. However it is not historical to cover Perm in Udmurt for no discernible reason at all, so I have reduced the Udmurt area by quite a bunch to a more historical zone. They could also expand a little toward the Vyatka region as well but at this point Russians started to settle Vyatka land so it's fine here.
For some reason Mari are only in a very small area so I expanded them to be more accurate. I also added back the Chuvash as a remnant of the Bolghars.
The Magyars represent the Chiyalik culture which existed all the way to the 15th century at the very least and spoke a Magyar language as evidenced by it's connections to the Magyar and Ugric Karayakupovo and Kushnarenkovo cultures. Nenets should cover a little smaller area in the Pechora region mainly concentrated alongside Usa and very lower reaches of Pechora. There should be connecting locations between the Kanin peninsula and lower Pechora as well.

Religion is hard to determine at this stage but most of these cultures should have either their own ethnoreligions at this point or be somewhat christianized. Namely Komi and Udmurt could share a religion and so could Moksha and Erzya. The Mari religion still exists and has quite a bunch of literature behind it and should have their own religion for sure. The Chuvash as well. The Magyar could share a religion with other Ugric speakers or have their own as they've been isolated for quite some time now and the specifics could be added according to their Pannonian cousins. The Nenets also deserve their own religion maybe shared with other tundra Samoyedic peoples.

As for tags here we come to the philosophical question of what a TAG in PC even is. Right now the massive Great Perm is not only ahistorical but unbalanced and represents nothing, not at least the real Great Perm centered around Cherdyn. As far as I can see the massive Great Perm TAG covers not only Cherdyn and Upper Kama but also most Udmurt territory, Vychegda Perm and even the reaches into Pechora. If you're willing to represent these territories under the control of a TAG then may I give some ideas as to how to split up Great Perm alongside a few other changes to the current political setup of this area.
1719610204676.png


Ežva is the core area of the Vym culture. Ežva is the name of Vychegda in Komi and named so because the area was called Vychegda Perm in Russian sources. If a polity was to be here, I think it should be based on the Vym culture the ancestors of Komi Zyriane.

Great Perm centers mostly around the Rodanovo culture, the ancestor of Permyaks.

Udmurtia is largely based on the Chepetsk fort culture and could be renamed Cheptsa to reflect this.
The Mari principalities are based on Russian sources of Mari principalities in the area that existed between the 13th and 16th centuries after the fall of Volga Bulgaria and the rise of Russia. They could be in some sort of relations with the Golden Horde. I would like some verification on them as my sources on them aren't the best right now and could be left as is until further confirmation on their state and existence is provided.

Southern Udmurtia could be argued to be part of the Golden horde if anything.

As for Pečöra they would represent the Pechora tribe in Russian chronicles. They could be subjects of Novgorod to reflect the taxing relationship. Nenets could also have their own tribe further north centered around the Komatyvis culture if you want to give them a TAG to play with.

As for climate, I think it should be adjusted according to the new locations I suggested but I don't know the exact specifics so I'll leave it up to the team to appropriately represent this area on that front. As far as resources go they seem okay for me although specific resources will obviously have to be discussed for the new locations depending on if there's any archaeological or cultural basis.

Sources

https://www.zamky.com.ua/ru/respublyka-komy/arheologyya-y-drevnyaya-ystoryya-pechorskogo-rajona/
https://www.zamky.com.ua/ru/respublyka-komy/arheologyya-y-drevnyaya-ystoryya-ust-tsylemskogo-rajona/
https://www.zamky.com.ua/ru/respublyka-komy/arheologyya-y-drevnyaya-ystoryya-yntynskogo-rajona/
https://www.zamky.com.ua/ru/respublyka-komy/arheologyya-y-drevnyaya-ystoryya-usynskogo-rajona/
https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/n...ii-v-epohu-zheleza-po-arheologicheskim-dannym
https://web.archive.org/web/2021042...42/1/10.17746-1563-0110.2019.47.3.074-084.pdf
https://sci-hub.se/10.1007/s10816-020-09455-w
https://illhkomisc.ru/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/maesv_xix_24_12_web.pdf
https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/o...i-srednevekovie-po-dannym-arheologii-chast-ii
https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/ob-ochen-drevney-istorii-yazycheskogo-belomorya
https://illhkomisc.ru/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/maesv_18.pdf
http://old.archaeology.nsc.ru/ru/publish/journal/doc/2011/47.pdf
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ижмаринское_княжество
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Малмыжское_княжество
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ветлужские_марийцы
https://www.zamky.com.ua/ru/moskovskaya-oblast/arheologyya-y-drevnyaya-ystoryya-pryluzkogo-rajona/
https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/p...i-zyryan-arheologo-etnograficheskie-paralleli
https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/pogrebeniya-s-monetami-kichilkosskogo-i-mogilnika
https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/e...dnevekovya-po-materialam-pogrebalnogo-obryada
https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/i...v-epohu-srednevekovya-po-materialam-vymskoy-i
https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/b...nizhnevychegodskogo-chezhtyyagskogo-mogilnika
https://www.rulit.me/books/finno-ugry-i-balty-v-epohu-srednevekovya-read-722947-140.html
http://nasledie-archive.ru/objs/1100091000.htmlhttps://www.zamky.com.ua/ru/respubl...-drevnyaya-ystoryya-knyazhpogostskogo-rajona/
https://naukarus.com/gorodische-novik-xii-xiii-vv-na-sredney-vychegde-respublika-komi
https://prussia.online/Data/Book/fi/finno-ugri-i-balti-v-epohu-srednevekovya/Финно-угры%20и%20балты%20в%20эпоху%20средневековья%20(1987),%20OCR.pdf
https://journal.fi/iskos/article/view/110524/64996
https://www.thefreelibrary.com/ON+N...PERM+FINNS+IN+VII-VIII+CENTURIES.-a0564608534
 
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I remember from the religions tinto talks Johan mentioned a Strigovnichesko (idk how to spell it) Christian denomination in Russia, did you scrap that idea or is it going to spawn later in the game?
 
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