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Tinto Maps #8 - 28th of June 2024 - Russia

Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Maps! This week we’ll be taking a look at Russia!

As an introductory note, we’re just considering today the ‘Russian core’, which in 1337 comprised the different Russian Principalities, as far as the White Sea to the north, and the Ural Mountains to the east. The lands that would later be incorporated into the Russian Empire will be covered in future Tinto Maps (otherwise, we would have to cover like… 1/8th? of the land mass in just one DD).

Countries
Countries.png

Russia is divided into several Principalities in 1337. The dominant one probably is Muscovy, as its Grand Prince, Ivan I Danilovich ‘Kalita’ (‘Moneybag’) is also Prince of Nizhny Novgorod and Kostroma, and of Novgorod (by election, in this case). He also holds the title of Grand Prince of Vladimir, bestowed by the Khan of the Golden Horde, which makes him the ruler enforcing the ‘Tatar Yoke’ over other Russian Principalities (which in our game is represented through an IO; the coloring of the different countries is different tones of yellow as they are tributaries of the Yoke). The other main power in the region is the Grand Republic of Novgorod, with a completely different institutional structure, that allows them to pick their rulers. Their power comes from being the main trading power between the Baltic Sea and the Russian region, and it’s the overlord of two border countries, the Principality of Pskov, and the County of Oreshek, a buffer country in Karelia, as agreed with Sweden after a recent war. Several lands to the north and east are not owned by any country. As a final note, you may also see that Lithuania is the overlord of some of the principalities, some of them directly through Gediminid rulers (Polotsk or Vitebsk), while other over Rurikovich rulers (Smolensk or Rzhev).

Muscovy.png

Tatar Yoke.png

The starting diplomatic of Muscovy and the Tatar Yoke IO, for the sake of clarity.

Dynasties
Dynasties.png

Several branches of the House of Rurik rule over the Russian lands. Fun fact: we have 18 different branches portrayed in the game. The exceptions are a few principalities, and the ruler of Karelia, Prince Narimantas of the Lithuanian Gediminids. Also, the 'Cherdyn' and 'Vyatka' are randomly assigned dynasties, as we haven't been able to get the data for those countries on 1337.

Locations
Locations.png

We’re showing a less detailed region this week because, well, Russia is big. Feel free to ask for more detailed screenshots of specific areas, and I’ll try to provide them. We’re also showing some parts of the Steppe, Finland, and Kola, because of the scale of the map; take them as ‘unavoidable spoilers’, as we’ll talk more in-depth about them in future Tinto Maps.

Provinces
Provinces.png

The provinces of Russia. As usual, suggestions are welcomed!

Terrain
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain map modes. As discussed in previous Tinto Maps, we’ll read carefully your feedback, as we have plenty of room to polish them!

Cultures
Cultures.png

Cultures! As in other regions, we decided to have three different cultures in the Russian region, Novgorodian, Muscovite, and Severian. The design here is different than in the Ruthenian region, because Russia was more politically divided in the High Middle Ages, and would later be more culturally unified later on, while in Ruthenia, the situation would be the opposite. In any case, the four of them are East Slavic cultures, and we're open to feedback, of course. Apart from that, there are a bunch of different cultures bordering the region: Karelian, Pomor, Komi, Udmurt, etc. We might add some more minorities of these cultures, in the feedback pass after this DD. Also, take into account that the minorities over the Tatar lands (currently under the Kazani and Mishary cultures) are not yet done.

Religions
Religion.png

Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant in the region, although there are other religions in the area, as well; take ‘Animist’, ‘Tengrist’, and ‘Shamanist’ as wide categories, as we’d like to add a bit more granularity for them (although that will come later this year, don’t expect them to be added in the coming Tinto Maps, but maybe on the later ones). We’ve already seen some posts asking about Slavic Paganism; up until now, we’ve considered the Russian people to be Christianized, even if it was a more or less superficial process. If you’d like us to add this religion and some percentage of the population adhering to it, then I’d ask you for specific sources that could help us portray it (so, isolated references to it being followed here or there won’t be helpful, while academic sources saying ‘up to X% of the population was following Slavic rites’ might very much be).

Raw Materials
Raw Materials.png

Quite different resources to other regions previously shown, with plenty of Lumber, Fur, and Wild Game in this region. I’ve also extended a bit the screenshot to the east, so you can see the mineral richnesses of the Ural Mountains, with plenty of locations with Copper, Iron, Gold, and Lead, making it quite juicy to colonize.

Markets
Markets.png

The counter to the richness of the natural resources of the region is its integration into the different markets, which at the start of the game are centered around Novgorod, Moscow, and Kazan. Fully exploiting the economic possibilities of Russia will therefore require effort and patience.

Country and Location population
Country Population.png

Location Population SW.png

Location Population SE.png


Location Population NE.png

Location Population NW.png

Not many people inhabit the Russian core, approximately 6M in total. This poses a series of challenges regarding the expansion of any Russian country. Also, we've divided into 4 different maps of the location population of the region, to make it possible to visualize. A side note: you might note that the population of NW Novgorod and Karelia is calculated a bit differently. That's because Johan took care of drawing the Scandinavian map in an early stage of development, and the Content Design team took over the rest of Russia at a later stage when we had already refined a bit more our population calculation methods. This means that when we do the feedback pass after this Tinto Maps, in a few weeks, we'll homogenize the style, as well.

And this is all for today! We hope that you’ll find it interesting, and give us great feedback! Next week we’re traveling to Carpathia and the Balkans! See you!
 
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According to archaeological excavations, Novgorod was founded no earlier than the beginning of the 10th century. A consensus of historians has been formed on this issue for a long time.

Rurik, who supposedly ruled in Novgorod half a century before its foundation, is a legendary character, not confirmed by reliable sources, unknown to contemporaries, the first mentions of whom appeared more than 200 years after he allegedly lived. Metropolitan Ilarion, a contemporary of Yaroslav the Wise, called Igor, not Rurik, the first representative of the dynasty of Kyiv princes.

Regarding Rus in Novgorod, once again, historians, including Russian ones, have long drawn attention to the fact that Novgorodians considered Rus to be a rather limited territory around Kyiv. When someone from Novgorod went to Kyiv, the Novgorod chronicle wrote that he went to Rus.
What's the point of discussing events 4 centuries prior to the game start? The Rus were Finns anyway, but who cares about 10th century as of 1337?
 
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According to archaeological excavations, Novgorod was founded no earlier than the beginning of the 10th century. A consensus of historians has been formed on this issue for a long time.

Rurik, who supposedly ruled in Novgorod half a century before its foundation, is a legendary character, not confirmed by reliable sources, unknown to contemporaries, the first mentions of whom appeared more than 200 years after he allegedly lived. Metropolitan Ilarion, a contemporary of Yaroslav the Wise, called Igor, not Rurik, the first representative of the dynasty of Kyiv princes.

Regarding Rus in Novgorod, once again, historians, including Russian ones, have long drawn attention to the fact that Novgorodians considered Rus to be a rather limited territory around Kyiv. When someone from Novgorod went to Kyiv, the Novgorod chronicle wrote that he went to Rus.

I read the Novgorod Chronicle and the Elder and Younger. And the agreements of Novgorod with Livonia and Hansa.

as I already wrote in the topic
the word Rus' - had 2 meanings
1) the area around the capital is the Domain of the Grand Duke.
Other regions by provincial names.
2) the general name of the territory where the Rurik Family rules.
Both
in the cultural sense - the Tale of Igor's Campaign,
in church terms - one territory
and in the diplomatic sense - the treaties of Smolensk with the Gothic coast, and of Novgorod with Livonia.
and feudal - Prince of All Rus'. Those. something big, and not the Prince of Kiev, as a capital territory.

Novgorodians wrote to themselves that they were Novgorodians. or Slovenian. But at the same time, Rus'.

just as the Swabians knew that they were Swabians, and the Germans as subjects of the HRE.

Novgorod is the place where the fate of Rus' was decided through the hiring of Scandinavian mercenaries. Who will rule.
Novgorod is the link between the Scandinavian rulers and their relatives in Kyiv.

One cannot deny Novgorod the fact that it is not Rus'.
in Novgorod epics - “Mother Rus'”, “Russian People”
Ask the Novgorodians themselves when they immediately overthrew their Rurykovych prince and declared themselves an independent republic that freely kicked out any Vladimirian princes who thought themselves the ruler of the place. They were not Rusyns, they were Novgorodians. Even the Primary Chronicle, which is where we find the account of the Viking Rus arriving in Ingria and Novgorod still doesn't consider Novgorod a part of the Rus Land.
 
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Ask the Novgorodians themselves when they immediately overthrew their Rurykovych prince and declared themselves an independent republic that freely kicked out any Vladimirian princes who thought themselves the ruler of the place. They were not Rusyns, they were Novgorodians. Even the Primary Chronicle, which is where we find the account of the Viking Rus arriving in Ingria and Novgorod still doesn't consider Novgorod a part of the Rus Land.
you are already fantasizing.
and about the overthrow of Rurik
(During the time of the theoretical Rurik there was no Novgorod. Basically. but there was Old Ladoga.)
and about the absence of princes - the Novgorod “land” has always been a principality. and there was always a Prince, whose rights changed depending on the historical period, and what power stood behind the prince.

lists of Novgorod princes - continuous - are easily available on the Internet. why tell a deliberate untrue
 
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My point still stands. Rather than using even a more appropriate term, such as "Руський",
Thank you for your valuable input, but Russians are more than capable of deciding for themselves which word to use how to spell "Russian" as an endonym.
the term "Русский" appears within "древнерусский". This almost, if not outright, conflates Rus with Russia, despite Rus's clear development into Ukraine and Belarus, while Muscovy went in a generally distinct direction. Russia is not a continuation of Rus. Just as Rus wasn't "Ancient Russia", Russia is not even close to a "Modern Rus". Do not be so obtuse as to not understand this.
But Russia IS a continuation of Rus. Like, literally as of 1337, the Kievan metropolitan of all Rus resides in Moscow, whose princely state would form (in the future) the Russian Empire. It all belongs to Mother Russia. It's fact confirmable by a neutral third party observer, i.e. the Patriarchate of Constantinople.
You're not dumb, the word "Русский" and "Древнерусский" in Russian automatically connect Rus (modern Ukraine and Belarus), which has almost in every occasion been brutalised and repressed by Moscow (and before that, Vladimir-Suzdal), to the idea that Russia is the modern Rus, with an inherent belonging of Ukraine and Belarus to it.
Why shouldn't it connect? Moscow was the fortress of a Grand Prince of Kiev, who held Vladimir and Suzdal at the time and settled the land with the Rus. With that same Rus as you mention in Ukraine and Belarus. East Slavic settlers of the North-East didn't spawn from thin air.
By analogy, the word "Espanol" automatically connects Hispania (modern Iberian peninsula), which has almost in every occasion been brutalised and repressed by Castille, to the idea that Spain is the modern Hispania, with an inherent belonging of Portugal, Basque Country and Catalunya to it.
:-/
Probably because the French actually live in what was actually Gaul.
So do Russians, unless we go into modern politics and get moderated out for that.
They were not Rusyns, they were Novgorodians.
They literally called themselves Rusyns in their treaty with Gotlanders.
UPD: and Livonian Order recognised Novgorodians as "Ruzen" at least in 1323, fifteen years before the game start. And the Hansa considers Novgorodians as "Rusesche" in 1338.
 
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This implies that the territory which is split between Nizhny Novgorod and Golden Horde was not directly owned by either of those, and was under control of local Finno-ugric princes.
I'd like to highlight this portion because Johan said 1337 was chosen to show the transition from feudal states to modern states. This is an example of the ancienne regime with its CK-modelled muti-tiered lordship. I believe it's totally inappropriate for Project Caesar but I defer to Johan who explicitly wants this stuff in the game.
 
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I'm totally lost on what is even being contested. The idea that Moscow is "less" Russian or "more" Russian seems to me to be pure nationalist bunkum. It's obvious to those who have studied the region that what "Rus" and "Russia" meant changed over time and especially following the Moscow's conquest of the other principalities and claiming of the mantle. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me that if culture works anything like it did in EU4 you should be able to form a cultural union - maybe Muscovite or whatever forming culture should change to "Russian" following the formation of Russia and represent the gradual subordination of other identities to the emerging united identity as more than just a cultural umbrella or remembered unity.

Wow, the Tsardom of Russia "fabricated" national identity. Big news - all national identities are imagined. There is no primordial "Russian" culture which was "stolen" by Moscow. The meaning of the term shifted over time geographically and culturally after the Mongol Invasions and the unification of what would become Russia by the Rurikid principality of Moscow.
 
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@Pavía
There's been a major discussion of non-Slavic peoples in this thread, so my question is:
Why not add some Volga peoples & their political entities to the Tatar Yoke system?
I know little about these nations but I can see at least 1 mention of their subordinate status to Tatars.
 
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@Pavía
There's been a major discussion of non-Slavic peoples in this thread, so my question is:
Why not add some Volga peoples & their political entities to the Tatar Yoke system?
I know little about these nations but I can see at least 1 mention of their subordinate status to Tatars.
What states?
The former Bulgaria was included in the Horde as an ulus.

in Modovia there was another ulus - with the capital in Moksha (Narovchat).
Between Ryazan and the Volga in the 15-16th century there were enough Tatar small beyliks (Tatar elite, Ugric population). but in 1337 it was difficult to identify any states or autonomies there.
 
Towns and cities will be important for market access and power, as they will have more infrastructure (=buildings) available to improve those.

Awesome, thanks! About the infrastructure you mentioned: will there be a building that acts as a regional center of trade, improving market access and letting some of it flow out of Florence to other locations along roads and rivers?
Or will the effects of all buildings be confined to their location, so only Florence itself would enjoy improved access to goods in the market?

I'm asking that because I think markets would play best if they were somewhat polycentric, less abstract. So if they behaved like the sum of all of the major trade cities whose commercial activity makes up a market. Mechanically speaking: if a location's market situation wasn't only the function of its proximity to Genoa, but it took Florence or Milan into account too.
 
Thank you for your valuable input, but Russians are more than capable of deciding for themselves which word to use how to spell "Russian" as an endonym.
Rus is not Russia, full stop.
But Russia IS a continuation of Rus. Like, literally as of 1337, the Kievan metropolitan of all Rus resides in Moscow, whose princely state would form (in the future) the Russian Empire. It all belongs to Mother Russia. It's fact confirmable by a neutral third party observer, i.e. the Patriarchate of Constantinople.
Not in the slightest. Andriy Boholjubsky and his dear father sacked the Rus land, even the Primary Chronicle mentions them going to Rus from Vladimir-Suzdal.
Why shouldn't it connect? Moscow was the fortress of a Grand Prince of Kiev, who held Vladimir and Suzdal at the time and settled the land with the Rus. With that same Rus as you mention in Ukraine and Belarus. East Slavic settlers of the North-East didn't spawn from thin air.
Interesting that this Prince sacked Kyiv and Vyshhorod. Why do that when he was actually contesting the Grand Prince at the time? Bloody poser.
By analogy, the word "Espanol" automatically connects Hispania (modern Iberian peninsula), which has almost in every occasion been brutalised and repressed by Castille, to the idea that Spain is the modern Hispania, with an inherent belonging of Portugal, Basque Country and Catalunya to it.
:-/
Completely different issue: Castille and Portugal, along with Catalonia, have been repeatedly and traditionally described to be "the Spains", which is not comparable to the 19th century invention of terms such as "Kyivan Rus" and "Muscovite Rus".
So do Russians, unless we go into modern politics and get moderated out for that.
We don't have to. The Primary Chronicle outright describes Novgorod and Vladimir-Suzdal princes going to Rus. Muscovy is not Rus as determined by all Rusian sources, full stop.
They literally called themselves Rusyns in their treaty with Gotlanders.
UPD: and Livonian Order recognised Novgorodians as "Ruzen" at least in 1323, fifteen years before the game start. And the Hansa considers Novgorodians as "Rusesche" in 1338.
Seems a matter of convenience, considering things. Oleksandr Nevsky pretending to be Grand Prince of Kyiv as well as his own dealings with the Germans as the temporary Grand Prince of Novgorod likely skewed things from the perspective of foreigners.
 
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you are already fantasizing.
and about the overthrow of Rurik
(During the time of the theoretical Rurik there was no Novgorod. Basically. but there was Old Ladoga.)
Okay...?
and about the absence of princes - the Novgorod “land” has always been a principality. and there was always a Prince, whose rights changed depending on the historical period, and what power stood behind the prince.
Never said there was an absence of princes. Novgorod chose to elect their Princes after overthrowing the hereditary monarchy.
lists of Novgorod princes - continuous - are easily available on the Internet. why tell a deliberate untrue
Okay, and this is relevant how? Can't say I'm saying an "untrue", given that I've relied entirely on Rusian sources and what was considered Rus and what was considered not Rus.
 
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Rus is not Russia, full stop.
*shrugging* Rus is Russia, full stop. As of 1337 the Kievan Metropolitan of all Rus is in Moscow. Before moving to Moscow, Theognostus is encountered in Volhynia, which (like Muscovy) is also not a part of Rus-in-narrow-sense but an integral part of Russian Kingdom.
Not in the slightest. Andriy Boholjubsky and his dear father sacked the Rus land, even the Primary Chronicle mentions them going to Rus from Vladimir-Suzdal.
Why do you think the Rus couldn't sack the Rus? We know for certain that both Andriy and Yuriy were the Rus - they are the Rurikovich.

Completely different issue: Castille and Portugal, along with Catalonia, have been repeatedly and traditionally described to be "the Spains", which is not comparable to the 19th century invention of terms such as "Kyivan Rus" and "Muscovite Rus".
The lands from Halych to Vyatka have been repeatedly and traditionally described as "the Ruses" up until the 19th century Age of Nationalism, and therefore it's not a different issue.
We don't have to. The Primary Chronicle outright describes Novgorod and Vladimir-Suzdal princes going to Rus. Muscovy is not Rus as determined by all Rusian sources, full stop.
All the while both Novgorodians and Vladimir-Suzdalians consistently describing themselves as Russians, e,g, the Novgorod 1 Chronicle describes Tver's clash with tatars in 1327 as the sacking of Rus land. Muscovy is Rus as determined by Russian sources, full stop.
Seems a matter of convenience, considering things.
Sure. This is why Rus is Russia. It's a matter of convenience.
 
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*shrugging* Rus is Russia, full stop. As of 1337 the Kievan Metropolitan of all Rus is in Moscow. Before moving to Moscow, Theognostus is encountered in Volhynia, which (like Muscovy) is also not a part of Rus-in-narrow-sense but an integral part of Russian Kingdom.
Cute, given the Danylo Halytsky was also Grand Prince of Kyiv (given that he actually controlled Kyiv). I don't really see the Church as relevant to this, given that Moscow was a place of refuge in a strange time, no more, no less. Rus is not Russia.
Why do you think the Rus couldn't sack the Rus? We know for certain that both Andriy and Yuriy were the Rus - they are the Rurikovich.
Primary Chronicle contradicts you entirely.
The lands from Halych to Vyatka have been repeatedly and traditionally described as "the Ruses" up until the 19th century Age of Nationalism, and therefore it's not a different issue.
Starting with Lomonosov, but alright then, Mr. Muscovy.
All the while both Novgorodians and Vladimir-Suzdalians consistently describing themselves as Russians, e,g, the Novgorod 1 Chronicle describes Tver's clash with tatars in 1327 as the sacking of Rus land. Muscovy is Rus as determined by Russian sources, full stop.
Russian sources are not Rusian sources, full stop.
Sure. This is why Rus is Russia. It's a matter of convenience.
Love how you need to twist words to feel smug)
 
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Okay...?

Never said there was an absence of princes. Novgorod chose to elect their Princes after overthrowing the hereditary monarchy.

Okay, and this is relevant how? Can't say I'm saying an "untrue", given that I've relied entirely on Rusian sources and what was considered Rus and what was considered not Rus.
Your disputes about sources - Cuke you head and shoulders. So far you have never been able to give him a reasoned answer.
and you certainly haven’t read the Novgorod chronicles and surviving treaties, otherwise you wouldn’t be so categorical in your misconceptions.

Novgorod never abandoned the Prince as an institution.

For the mentality of Slavic and Scandinavian society did not see a land without a Prince in principle

In the Novgorod “land”, as well as in the other “lands of the Rurikovichs” - the totality of which was called Russia, there was no hereditary feudalism that anyone could overthrow.

About what feudalism is - read Mark Blok - Feudal Society - 1930s edition, he is French, so he doesn’t have any Muscovite ideas in his book)))
While you do not understand the essence of the term well.

in Novgorod there were always princes from the Rurikovichs. This was at first the traditional inheritance of the eldest son, then, as the number of members of the dynasty increased, it was simply one of the main “destinations” of the Rurikovichs.
The 50 year wars over who would put their prince in Novgorod between Suzdal, Chernigov and Smolensk apparently passed your knowledge of history.

PS
If anything, I’m not Russian, and you can turn off chauvinism. I am not encroaching on Ukrainian culture and history. And I think I even know more about the 11th-15th centuries than many “patriots.” from all sides.
 
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Dude, according to Russian sources, the title of the first Russian tsar was "Sovereign, Tsar, and Grand Prince of all Rus'" ("Государь, Царь и Великий князь всея Руси").
You are talking nonsense.


It's just a pretentious title, nothing more. It is impossible to be the tsar of all Rus without owning Rus itself (Rus in the narrow sense, around Kyiv-Chernihiv-Pereyaslav). It's like the Holy Roman Empire that didn't own Rome itself. But now no one considers it the real Roman Empire.

At the same time, the Polish king Stefan Batory had the title of Grand Duke of Rus.
 
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It's just a pretentious title, nothing more. It is impossible to be the tsar of all Rus without owning Rus itself (Rus in the narrow sense, around Kyiv-Chernihiv-Pereyaslav). It's like the Holy Roman Empire that didn't own Rome itself. But now no one considers it the real Roman Empire.

At the same time, the Polish king Stefan Batory had the title of Grand Duke of Rus.
This guy claims, that according to Russian sources, Moscow and Russia are not Rus'. But according to Russian sources Russia is Rus' and Moscow in one of the centers of power of the Rus', that shifted from Kiev (the second one is Novgorod).

The other part of your message is debatable, but it is pointless to argue about this with guys like you.
 
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It's just a pretentious title, nothing more. It is impossible to be the tsar of all Rus without owning Rus itself (Rus in the narrow sense, around Kyiv-Chernihiv-Pereyaslav). It's like the Holy Roman Empire that didn't own Rome itself. But now no one considers it the real Roman Empire.

At the same time, the Polish king Stefan Batory had the title of Grand Duke of Rus.
No, in the narrow sense of the word, for describing internal events in the chronicles, Rus' is purely a Kiev region.
Chernigov and Pereyaslavl were like Volyn or Novgorod - named separately by capital cities.

in Chernigov from the 12th century until the absorption by Lithuania, the house of Rostislavich firmly sat.
and Pereyaslavl was a junior house, with the function of defense against the Tatars. Military border principality. The prince from the house that controlled Kyiv often sat there.
The last prince of Pereyaslavl was Svyatoslav Vsevolodovich - from the Suzdal house.


But Rus' as a political meaning was for the entire region where the Rurikovichs sat.
 
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I think the whole essence of the dispute comes down to the fact that Russian players want gaming advantages for expansion in the form of a huge single culture in the territories of Eastern Europe. I don't think this is correct. And yes, Novgorod does not have to turn into Russia, it can be a high state. Or some other option.
 
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