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Tinto Maps #8 - 28th of June 2024 - Russia

Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Maps! This week we’ll be taking a look at Russia!

As an introductory note, we’re just considering today the ‘Russian core’, which in 1337 comprised the different Russian Principalities, as far as the White Sea to the north, and the Ural Mountains to the east. The lands that would later be incorporated into the Russian Empire will be covered in future Tinto Maps (otherwise, we would have to cover like… 1/8th? of the land mass in just one DD).

Countries
Countries.png

Russia is divided into several Principalities in 1337. The dominant one probably is Muscovy, as its Grand Prince, Ivan I Danilovich ‘Kalita’ (‘Moneybag’) is also Prince of Nizhny Novgorod and Kostroma, and of Novgorod (by election, in this case). He also holds the title of Grand Prince of Vladimir, bestowed by the Khan of the Golden Horde, which makes him the ruler enforcing the ‘Tatar Yoke’ over other Russian Principalities (which in our game is represented through an IO; the coloring of the different countries is different tones of yellow as they are tributaries of the Yoke). The other main power in the region is the Grand Republic of Novgorod, with a completely different institutional structure, that allows them to pick their rulers. Their power comes from being the main trading power between the Baltic Sea and the Russian region, and it’s the overlord of two border countries, the Principality of Pskov, and the County of Oreshek, a buffer country in Karelia, as agreed with Sweden after a recent war. Several lands to the north and east are not owned by any country. As a final note, you may also see that Lithuania is the overlord of some of the principalities, some of them directly through Gediminid rulers (Polotsk or Vitebsk), while other over Rurikovich rulers (Smolensk or Rzhev).

Muscovy.png

Tatar Yoke.png

The starting diplomatic of Muscovy and the Tatar Yoke IO, for the sake of clarity.

Dynasties
Dynasties.png

Several branches of the House of Rurik rule over the Russian lands. Fun fact: we have 18 different branches portrayed in the game. The exceptions are a few principalities, and the ruler of Karelia, Prince Narimantas of the Lithuanian Gediminids. Also, the 'Cherdyn' and 'Vyatka' are randomly assigned dynasties, as we haven't been able to get the data for those countries on 1337.

Locations
Locations.png

We’re showing a less detailed region this week because, well, Russia is big. Feel free to ask for more detailed screenshots of specific areas, and I’ll try to provide them. We’re also showing some parts of the Steppe, Finland, and Kola, because of the scale of the map; take them as ‘unavoidable spoilers’, as we’ll talk more in-depth about them in future Tinto Maps.

Provinces
Provinces.png

The provinces of Russia. As usual, suggestions are welcomed!

Terrain
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain map modes. As discussed in previous Tinto Maps, we’ll read carefully your feedback, as we have plenty of room to polish them!

Cultures
Cultures.png

Cultures! As in other regions, we decided to have three different cultures in the Russian region, Novgorodian, Muscovite, and Severian. The design here is different than in the Ruthenian region, because Russia was more politically divided in the High Middle Ages, and would later be more culturally unified later on, while in Ruthenia, the situation would be the opposite. In any case, the four of them are East Slavic cultures, and we're open to feedback, of course. Apart from that, there are a bunch of different cultures bordering the region: Karelian, Pomor, Komi, Udmurt, etc. We might add some more minorities of these cultures, in the feedback pass after this DD. Also, take into account that the minorities over the Tatar lands (currently under the Kazani and Mishary cultures) are not yet done.

Religions
Religion.png

Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant in the region, although there are other religions in the area, as well; take ‘Animist’, ‘Tengrist’, and ‘Shamanist’ as wide categories, as we’d like to add a bit more granularity for them (although that will come later this year, don’t expect them to be added in the coming Tinto Maps, but maybe on the later ones). We’ve already seen some posts asking about Slavic Paganism; up until now, we’ve considered the Russian people to be Christianized, even if it was a more or less superficial process. If you’d like us to add this religion and some percentage of the population adhering to it, then I’d ask you for specific sources that could help us portray it (so, isolated references to it being followed here or there won’t be helpful, while academic sources saying ‘up to X% of the population was following Slavic rites’ might very much be).

Raw Materials
Raw Materials.png

Quite different resources to other regions previously shown, with plenty of Lumber, Fur, and Wild Game in this region. I’ve also extended a bit the screenshot to the east, so you can see the mineral richnesses of the Ural Mountains, with plenty of locations with Copper, Iron, Gold, and Lead, making it quite juicy to colonize.

Markets
Markets.png

The counter to the richness of the natural resources of the region is its integration into the different markets, which at the start of the game are centered around Novgorod, Moscow, and Kazan. Fully exploiting the economic possibilities of Russia will therefore require effort and patience.

Country and Location population
Country Population.png

Location Population SW.png

Location Population SE.png


Location Population NE.png

Location Population NW.png

Not many people inhabit the Russian core, approximately 6M in total. This poses a series of challenges regarding the expansion of any Russian country. Also, we've divided into 4 different maps of the location population of the region, to make it possible to visualize. A side note: you might note that the population of NW Novgorod and Karelia is calculated a bit differently. That's because Johan took care of drawing the Scandinavian map in an early stage of development, and the Content Design team took over the rest of Russia at a later stage when we had already refined a bit more our population calculation methods. This means that when we do the feedback pass after this Tinto Maps, in a few weeks, we'll homogenize the style, as well.

And this is all for today! We hope that you’ll find it interesting, and give us great feedback! Next week we’re traveling to Carpathia and the Balkans! See you!
 
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idk really worth it to make a "Gdov" or even a distinct "Pskovian" culture?
Look at Poland and Ruthenia. Devs squeezed out so many cultures there and when it comes to Ruthenian it's not even based on linguistic borders. And if you look closely they already added Smolensk culture. But I do agree that Pskov culture is too much. maybe it can be joined with Novgorod culture.

But my point is, as they started to split cultures even more. Here is the map on which those splits can be based.
 
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It isn't but look at France!
I mean, I'm comfortable with the current setup in Poland feedback thread but once we decide to have lots of small cultures - we might just as well use some real-life basis to differentiate them.
I feel like the issue is that France has too many cultures.
 
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A Muscovite culture whose borders cover Tver, one of Moscow's historic rivals, is almost perverse. The divisions of Rus' need to be reconsidered, though I can't think of a better way to go about it right now.

Add the Solovetsky Islands as a location, if they're not one already.

Ingermanland should be Ingria, or better yet Izhora.
 
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A Muscovite culture whose borders cover Tver, one of Moscow's historic rivals, is almost perverse. The divisions of Rus' need to be reconsidered, though I can't think of a better way to go about it right now.

Add the Solovetsky Islands as a location, if they're not one already.

Ingermanland should be Ingria, or better yet Izhora.
Bro, it's like you know how to improve all regions in the world.
 
It's just that I've noticed you in all of DDs lately)
I figured as much, but I wasn't sure whether or not you were being sarcastic. I suppose that's always the risk when getting a quick compliment on the Internet.

I came across the Germany maps back in August and discovered Project Caesar that way. I had thoughts, and inevitably some of those were objections. Then I found the other maps and accumulated more and more objections in my head. Eventually I decided to do something I haven't done in a very long time, which is join a forum, so this stuff wouldn't stay locked in my skull. I've been working on these comments for a little over a month; I was "lucky" enough to have my beach holiday ruined by rainy weather, which I suppose was a good thing, because I ended up working on them more than I had initially planned to. You see, I didn't know about the feedback threads when I got started, meaning some of my work ended up being irrelevant. That was a fun discovery to make.

At first I wanted to join when I was done and post everything at once, but eventually came to the conclusion that I had absolutely no idea when that was going to happen, so I might as well post what I already have before the game comes out. I've so far posted everything that felt coherent. All that's left are to-do lists and some stuff I need to rewrite.
 
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A Muscovite culture whose borders cover Tver, one of Moscow's historic rivals, is almost perverse. The divisions of Rus' need to be reconsidered, though I can't think of a better way to go about it right now.

Add the Solovetsky Islands as a location, if they're not one already.

Ingermanland should be Ingria, or better yet Izhora.
Dividing a culture just because someone was a rival is a questionable decision. You could make every Irish tribe and every turkish beylik to have different culture by this logic. Also theres a thing that Tver became independent only in 1247 (less than a century), and the real rivalry with Moscow started only in 1304, which is 33 years prior to the start date. Untill then they mostly ignored each other and did their own thing.

Though I do agree that naming Tver's culture after Moscow doesnt make sence. Russia wasnt unified by this time, and Mosow place wasnt some kind of "origin of the eastern slavs" to begin with. Its just a town that became important shortly prior to the start of the game. Naming culture of every principality after single town makes as little sence as calling all northern germans "Berlinians".

I would suggest to just rename muscovites into "zaleskie" or "opolskie", it would make things more consistent.
Zalesye and Opolye are historical names of the region.

Zaleskie.jpg
 
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200k for Moscow seems a very high population. It is higher than anything in the Anatolia or Greece maps.

Wikipedia has some info about Moscow populations at different times but of course nothing in 1337
- 40k in 1400 "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Moscow#Historical_demographics - based on [20]"
- 100k+ in 1502 "This is in stark contrast to the 41,500 houses and at least 100 thousand inhabitants that Moscow had in 1520.[18]"
- 270k in 1812 "At the beginning of 1812 Moscow had around 270,184 inhabitants according to a contemporary police survey;[12]"
 
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200k for Moscow seems a very high population. It is higher than anything in the Anatolia or Greece maps.

Wikipedia has some info about Moscow populations at different times but of course nothing in 1337
- 40k in 1400 "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Moscow#Historical_demographics - based on [20]"
- 100k+ in 1502 "This is in stark contrast to the 41,500 houses and at least 100 thousand inhabitants that Moscow had in 1520.[18]"
- 270k in 1812 "At the beginning of 1812 Moscow had around 270,184 inhabitants according to a contemporary police survey;[12]"
Maybe because a location is not just a city, but also the surrounding settlements?
 
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Dividing a culture just because someone was a rival is a questionable decision.
I'd be perfectly fine with renaming it - the name's the problem more than anything. What I said about the Rus' cultures applied to all of them, from the Arctic to the Carpathians.
Naming culture of every principality after single town makes as little sence as calling all northern germans "Berlinians".
So Ich bin not ein Berliner?
I would suggest to just rename muscovites into "zaleskie" or "opolskie", it would make things more consistent.
Zalesye and Opolye are historical names of the region.

View attachment 1192625
I've genuinely never heard of either of these place-names before, and I now endorse them fully and enthusiastically, Zalesye for the name of an area, and Zalessky for the name of a culture (unless those particular forms of the words are too modern).
 
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But that would be true of the places in Anatolia and Greece too with much smaller population numbers.

It's highly probable that the population of the Moscow Principality was extremely large during this period. Earlier in this thread, I provided a post with a reference to Vernadsky's work. In it, he relies on a census conducted by the Mongols in 1270. This census was used to establish the population of each principality, which in turn determined the amount of taxes each principality was obliged to pay. The population of the Moscow Principality was estimated at an average of 3,000,000 people. The developers, however, estimated the Moscow Principality's population in 1337 to be 792,000 people. I haven't found any other sources for the population during this period, apart from the Mongol census and Vernadsky's work.

So it's quite possible that Moscow's population is not just substantial, but perhaps should be even larger than currently represented :)
 
As there is a big push for more cultures here is a proposal for a split of Russian cultures

This is a map of the split of historical Russian dialects, but it is overlayed on top of the modern map.

View attachment 1188099
Here is my proposal of cultures based on this map. With green, I showed how they should migrate preferably. Map for Pomor people in attachments

I have not considered other cultural groups.
I believe Vepsian should be largely expanded as the colonisation of the Russian Siberia region started in the 12th century. A lot of rural locations in the Vologdan and Pomor culture regions should be Vepsian only with more developed regions with Russian culture like it is done in the Beloozero region (tried to mark them blue). Beloozero and Veliky Ustyug (it was called just Ustyug until the 15th century can be some event here ) were the northernmost Russian cities at that time

1727363160627.png
 

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A Muscovite culture whose borders cover Tver, one of Moscow's historic rivals, is almost perverse. The divisions of Rus' need to be reconsidered, though I can't think of a better way to go about it right now.

Add the Solovetsky Islands as a location, if they're not one already.

Ingermanland should be Ingria, or better yet Izhora.
Muscovite culture could be renamed to Vladimirian which given the start date seems more appropiate
 
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