Tinto Maps #9 - 5th of July 2024 - Carpathia and the Balkans

[KhosrowIAnushirvan]

My suggestion would be to reduce the size of Livno since it currently encompasses the entire historic duchy of Tropolje.

The name "Tropolje" means three fields (probably the Duvanjsko, Livanjsko, and Glamočko fields) so I suggest adding the respective locations to reflect that

Duvno should also be added since it was the seat of the Diocese of Duvno and one of theorised locations for the crowning of the first king of Croatia.

Makarska looks kind of odd since it's a coastal city so I added Sinj as other commenters also suggested.

Rama is a historic region and the king of Hungary took the title King of Rama.

 

[vikinglord]

"Ja, Ban Bosanski Kulin, obećavam Tebi kneže Krvašu i svim građanima Dubrovčanima pravim Vam prijateljem biti od sada i dovijeka." kulin bans charter in 1189

Just curious, how would the sentence that you quoted differ in Old Sebian or Old Croatian?

 

[Pescavelho]

First of all why croatia on the map is just in the sea region? If you gona put Croatia on the map then give it Slavonia and Zagreb regions as well, no sense in just giving it sea region.
Second Bosnians did not exist in 1337. Bosniaks are simply Croats and Serbs that acepted muslim religion. Untill turkish conquest of Serbia Bosnia was majority Croat with river of Drina serving as natural border between western roman empire / eastern roman empire and later on as border between chatolicisam and orthodoxy. Chatolic south slavs are croats, orthodox south slavs are serbs. Serbs will populate bosnia in later ages when they run from ottomans to western parts.

During the game's timeline, "Bosniac" was a regional identity, applied to all inhabitants regardless of religion. The "Muslim = Bosniac", "Catholic = Croat", and "Orthodox = Serb" configuration was only really crystallized after B&H was incorporated into Austria-Hungary. And regardless, the game isn't using "Bosniac", but rather "Bosnian", which to this day is a civic demonym rather than an ethnic one.
Is having "Bosnian" as a single culture accurate for the game's timeline? Probably not. But the other option is having it anachronistically split between Serbian and Croatian culture with Bosniacs appearing up later as pops convert during Ottoman times, which is arguably even more awkward. Especially when you consider that Bosnia doesn't start as Muslim or Catholic or Orthodox majority at game-start and has its own thing going on.

This so-called “full English” play is actually the vanilla name for each localization for their native names, while dynamic names are to present the difference on pronouncing.

There're actually three level:

• Vanilla name in each localization, like Constantinople
• Name-change in history, like Istanbul
• Dynamic name by pronunciation, like Konstantiniyye

None-Latin alphabets localizations have made this even more complicated. Russian localization might be fine since it has kinda exact transcribing system with Latin alphabet but when it comes to Chinese, Korean and Japanese, there’re more variations due to the texture of each strings.

I'd like if they'd laid out what romanizations they're using and stuck to it, though they don't have to adhere 100% to it and could modify it, it's rare the case I find a single romanization system wholly satisfactory.
From screenshots we've seen, they are using Pinyin for Chinese, which is sensible (though I do wonder if they'll use different romanization systems for Cantonese, Wu, Hokkien, etc.). For Korean I assume they will use either Yale or Revised Romanization, since they have the least diacritics. As for Japanese, Hepburn is sort of the default so they'll probably use that, which is a bit of a shame because I'm rather partial to Nihonsiki, and its consistency is actually somewhat reflective of the Japanese spoken at this time, but I get it, players don't want to play as the "Syougun".

I don't like the silly name Krstjani for the Bosnian Church. Catholics also call themselves Christians, but they are logically named Catholics to prevent unnecessary confusions. The name should be more specific.

And what about the Gypsies? They already existed in the Balkans in the 14th century. They came to Western Europe in the 15th century, but they will not be able to come if the Balkans do not have them first.

Is there a better alternative?

 

[Alexandros Constantonos]

Personally, I am very happy with how the Romanian culture is handled. A distinction between Wallachian, Moldavian, Transylvanian, Aromanian and Istroromanian is great. Let's be honest, our country never really got that much attention from different strategy games, but this is just great. And we should not forget that all cultures have been balkanised. There's tens of cultures in France and Italy, but at the end of the day they will anways come to see eachother as one (italian and french). I feel like a single huge romanian culture would break the flow. I am also happy that they plan on having Moldavian separate itself from Wallachian once its formed. I wished for that from the first time I saw the map. And for people who are mad about Wallachian being spread out both in Wallachia and in Moldova, they should keep in mind that its a great solution for naming the areas until Moldavian is formed. You can't just call it Moldavian witbout Moldavia existing in the first place. My only doleace is that the team will review the Transylvania and Moldavia areas more thoroughly. The Transylvanian population should be way more spread out. and the Wallachian (future Moldavian) culture in Moldavia should not be extending this far and wide. There were many more ethnicities living in the area, and it was not romanian-dominated everywhere. I am pleased and I can't wait for the future reiteration of the culture map.

 

[Ivio]

silly, stefan tvrtko got crowned there and took up the name stefan to get the support of the serbian nobility, as his title literally meant that he ruled over the serbian vassal lands, anyways bosnian language existed even in 1189, that can easily be proven in kulin bans charter to the republic of dubrovnik

lol what? no? even in de administrando imperio constantine writes about the people in bosnia, in charter of kulin ban in 1189 he writes "Ja, Ban Bosanski Kulin, obećavam Tebi kneže Krvašu i svim građanima Dubrovčanima pravim Vam prijateljem biti od sada i dovijeka." which literally translates to me, , ban bosnian kulin, promise you prince krvaš and all citizens of dubrovnik to be your true friend from now on and forever. plus it was wroten in bosnian cyrillic so yeah. and after that the first bosnian king that would be born in 1338 tvrtko 1 says "Ja, kralj Tvrtko Bošnjanin, vo imja Gospodina nebeskogo, imja naroda Bosnskogo Vama kazujem: O bratijo vlastelini, sokoli, vuci, junaci bosanski, kojekude vo našoj Bosnici." the important part of that is the beginning where he says "king tvrtko bosnian" in old bosnian so yeah

Bosnia in that regard is refered to geographic location not people. As i say previously in 925 all south slavic people that acepted christianity and are not part of byzantium at that time are united in kingdom of croatia by pope. That includes dalmatia, slavonia and bosnia as all those lands are part of western roman empire. In 1101 croatia entered personal union with hungary but bosnian lands did not accept to become part of hungary and since kingdom of croatia already existed they took name bosnia.

Same as kingdoim of burgundy for example are still french but they are named after geographical location.
Please dont let modern politics to contaminate history, i know that paradox is too political correct so they would go with bosnian culture and thats crime against history.

 

[theChernobog]

He took the title King of Serbia, since he was related to Nemanjić dinasty through his grandmother, which was often used in medieval times to claim a throne, and get support from nobles and clergy, not to mention that title of king is bigger than ban, so he elevated his status.
Sultan Fatih took the title Kayser-i Rum after conquest of Constantinople in same manner.

Yes, but he was catholic, he could aleays sway the pope to get the title of King of Bosnia, buy he considered himself a serb, that's why he chose the title of King of Serbia, and later the Kotromanic dynasty "ruled" the Despotate of Serbia, after the Brankovic dynasty.. Although they surrendered Smederevo after 2 months. All in all, what you said has merit, but it's not a conqeror taking a title for legitimacy. It's him showing he is the main Serbian lord from that point onwards.

 

[Lude_has_come]

Hey, I may be a little bit late here, but since I am from eastern romania, I would like to speak about the way the region is represented on these maps. I think that Tulcea and Hârșova are way too big. I guess that this is made in order to represent the fact that this region was underdevelopped at the time, but in doing so a crucial geographic feature is left out : "munti Dobrogei", or the Dobrogean mountains are a small amalgamation of hills and mountains, bordered by the Danube to the west and north, and with the town of Măcin to the west bordering the Danube. This town was the biggest around the mountains and was already well established by the time of the Dacians and then Romans. Getting a piece off of Tulcea and Hârșova and making it into a new location, Măcin, would allow to include the Dobrogean mountains and the town of Măcin in the map.

On another note, while I would not dive too deep into the debate since I am not from there, I did observe a rather concerning lack of Transilvanians in your Transylvania. Knowing that Transylvania is basically the place of origin of Romanian people, that despite Hungarian rule Transylvania enjoyed a relatively high degree of autonomy, that the founders of both Wallachia and Moldova, despite being Hungarian vassals from Transylvania, had Romanian as their mother tongue, hinting at a significant Romanian speaking population, that most sources say that only two cities in the region had german majority, and that Transylvanian people did not go extinct despite centuries of Hungarian rule, wich considering the Hungarian efforts to integrate the region can only be possible with a significant Transylvanian population, I can thus safely assume that at the time Romanian speaking Transylvanians were at the very least a slight majority.

 

[Cigan1330]

There should be a mine in eastern Montenegro (Brskovo silver mine) and there should be mines near Branicevo and Kucevo.

Брсково (трг и рудник) — Википедија

sr.wikipedia.org

 

[Mracan]

View attachment 1158265

Instead of Bjelovar, which was founded in 18th centaury, you should name the location after Čazma which existed since 12th centaury.

 

[DiegoBiseswar]

I think you should add Greek minority in southern Bulgaria because at that time in history Greeks were almost 40% of the population in that area.

 

[Old_Sealand]

After looking at those terrain maps. I do believe it should be possible to change terrain mid-game.
Like forest turning into grassland or farmlands. Or I guess more like some gradual terrain change, from forest to woods to grasslands to farmlands.
Because in history there have been moments where first half of the Project Caesar timeline some parts were heavily forested but other half of the timeline it's not.
Same with like marshes, like how St.Petersburg was built on a swamp or with Mexico capital city, where they dried out the lake that used to surrounded Aztecs capital city.
And not just with forest but that one is easiest to give reason for why it should be able to change terrain mid-game. (of course not for all things, such as mountains I guess)

 

[hightowel]

There should be a mine in eastern Montenegro (Brskovo silver mine) and there should be mines near Branicevo and Kucevo.

Брсково (трг и рудник) — Википедија

sr.wikipedia.org

View attachment 1159374View attachment 1159375

Mines in eastern Serbia did exist during the game time frame, but they were quite small and only rose in prominence after the game end date. If locations could have several resources then I would be for adding them, but as is, they are not relevant enough. Also, Brskovo although an immensely important mine, by 1337. it was far past its peak and would be completely abandoned in a few decades. If they really wanted, they could have the location start with silver and soon the mine would be depleted trough an event.

 

[Koopatin]

Seeing the discussion regarding provinces and regions like Transylvania something came to my mind. Do we have something in between eu4 style vassals and eu4 style province edicts? So we can form somewhat of an autonomous region that is not its own polity on the map.


For example something like an edict giving up on a bit of control for a lower revolt risk and protects a culture from being converted, taking away the wrong culture modifier but giving a high revolt risk if removed.

 

[Cigan1330]

Mines in eastern Serbia did exist during the game time frame, but they were quite small and only rose in prominence after the game end date. If locations could have several resources then I would be for adding them, but as is, they are not relevant enough. Also, Brskovo although an immensely important mine, by 1337. it was far past its peak and would be completely abandoned in a few decades. If they really wanted, they could have the location start with silver and soon the mine would be depleted trough an event.

Serbia at the startdate had a massive silver production so I dont see why mines shouldnt be shown, I think that Brskovo was large enough to be depicted as a resourse imo

 

[Kimii003]

Kotromanić dinasty weren't Serbian, and Bosnia wasn't Serbian land. It's interesting how both, serbian and croatian nationalists try to claim Bosnia and Bosnian people being one or the other, which, paradoxically as it seems, just disproves your theories.

Firstly Kotormanić didn't control wlhole territory of todays bosnia but only area called Bosnia same as river their big expansion came with Stefan Tvrko I who more than doubled his territory. and Idea about Bosnian being cultural group comes way later even in first Yugoslavia there was not something like Bosnian culture.

 

[ValahNamedR3mus]

 

[GuSR_]

If you need more sources, let me know, I got a ton more, just remember to read the whole thing, not look for paragraphs, cause that's now how reading goes, especially when it comes to history.

Much love to all my Balkan brothers and sisters and remember, Rome is eternal.

Very cool, Ludi! Have you considered actually quoting those sources you're name dropping instead of just saying they agree with you? Especially when you're telling others to do the reading instead...

 

[Jugubigulau]

Please, rework the cultura map. There is no such thing as "wallachian" culture, we have been calling ourselves romanians since Aurelian retreated the roman troops from Dacia. And for sure romanians were the majority in Transilvanya, especially in the center. Please take account of Ludi's video, because what you guys made has some big flaws. You make great strategy games and they made me fall in love more with history and geography, so please let's make saomething accurate.

 

[flazeo255]

Regarding Situations, but is their any thought of creating a new one or extending the Antolia one involing the Beyliks to include Bulguria, Serbia and Byzatine, since both Serbia and Bulguaria were making regular power plays to try to become the new empire and sit selfs their. It be interesting to see where whoever controls Constantinople and keep the other powers at bay win out.

 

[Mingmung]

View attachment 1159356
My suggestion would be to reduce the size of Livno since it currently encompasses the entire historic duchy of Tropolje.

The name "Tropolje" means three fields (probably the Duvanjsko, Livanjsko, and Glamočko fields) so I suggest adding the respective locations to reflect that

Duvno should also be added since it was the seat of the Diocese of Duvno and one of theorised locations for the crowning of the first king of Croatia.

Makarska looks kind of odd since it's a coastal city so I added Sinj as other commenters also suggested.

Rama is a historic region and the king of Hungary took the title King of Rama.

I like the suggestion about Senj and the like, but the 'Three Fields' are not towns, cities or even villages/castles. Locations are, per the devs, named after such places.