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Tinto Maps #9 - 5th of July 2024 - Carpathia and the Balkans

Greetings, and welcome to another Tinto Maps! This week we will be taking a look at Carpathia and the Balkans! It will most likely be an interesting region to take a look at, with a lot of passion involved… So I’ll just make an initial friendly reminder to keep a civil discussion, as in the latest Tinto Maps, as that’s the easiest way for us to read and gather your feedback, and improve the region in a future iteration. And now, let’s start with the maps!

Countries:
Countries.png

Carpathia and the Balkans start in a very interesting situation. The Kingdom of Hungary probably stands as the most powerful country in 1337, but that only happened after the recovery of the royal power enforced by Charles I Robert of the House of Anjou, who reined in the powerful Hungarian nobility. To the south, the power that is on the rise is the Kingdom of Serbia, ruled by Stefan Uroš IV Dušan, who has set his eyes on his neighbors to expand his power. The Byzantine Empire, meanwhile, is in a difficult position, as internal struggles ended in Andronikos III being crowned sole emperor, at the cost of dividing the realm; both Serbia and Bulgaria have in the past pressed over the bordering lands, while the Ottomans have very recently conquered Nicomedia. The control over the Southern Balkans is also very fractioned, with a branch of the Anjou ruling over Albania, the Despotate of Epirus under the nominal rule of Byzantium as a vassal, Athens, Neopatria and Salona as vassals of the Aragonese Kings of Sicily, Anjou protectorates over Achaia and Naxos, and only nominal Byzantine control over Southern Morea. It’s also noticeable the presence of the Republics of Venice and Genoa, which control several outposts over the Adriatic and Aegean Seas. A final note: in previous maps, Moldavia was shown in the map, but we’ve removed it from it, and it will most likely spawn through a chain of events in the 1340s.

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The House of Anjou rules over Naples, Hungary, Albania, Achaia, and Cephalonia; they’re truly invested in their push for supremacy over the region. Apart from that, each country is ruled by different dynasties, except for Athens and Neopatria, ruled by the House of Aragón-Barcelona.

Locations:
Locations 1.png

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This week we’re posting the general map of the region, along with some more detailed maps, that can be seen if you click on the spoiler button. A starting comment is that the location density of Hungary is noticeably not very high; the reason is that it was one of the first European maps that we made, and we based it upon the historical counties. Therefore, I’m already saying in advance that this will be an area that we want to give more density when we do the review of the region; any help regarding that is welcome. Apart from that, you may notice on the more detailed maps that Crete appears in one, while not being present in the previous one; because of the zooming, the island will appear next week along with Cyprus, but I wanted to make an early sneak peek of the locations, given that is possible with this closer zoom level. Apart from that, I’m also saying in advance that we will make an important review of the Aegean Islands, so do not take them as a reference for anything, please.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

Provinces! Nothing outstanding to be commented on here; as usual, we’re open to any feedback regarding them.

Terrain:
Climate.png

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Terrain! The climate of the region is mostly divided between Continental and Mediterranean, with some warmer and some colder regions. Regarding the topography, the Carpathian mountains are famously important and strategic, while the Balkans are a quite hilly and mountainous region, which is also greatly covered by woods and forests.

Cultures:
Cultures.png

Here comes the fun part of the DD: The cultural division of the Balkans! A few comments:
  1. Hungary is full of different minorities. Transylvania, especially, is an interesting place: there we have a mix of ‘Hungarians’, ‘Transylvanians’ (which are the Romanian-speaking inhabitants of the region), ‘Transylvanian Germans’, and ‘Szekely’ people.
  2. We have divided the Southern Slavic-speaking region into their dialectal families of Slovene, Croatian, Bosnian, and Serbian.
  3. The Southern Balkans are mostly divided among Bulgarian, Albanian, and Greek cultures.
  4. We’re also portraying plenty of other cultures, such as Dalmatians, Aromanians, Sclavenes, Arvanites, Cumans, Jasz, or Ashkenazi and Romanyoti Jews.

Religions:
Religion.png

This one is also interesting. Apart from the divide between Western Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, we have the Krstjani in Bosnia, Bogomils (the pink stripes both in Bosnia and Macedonia), and Paulicians in Thrace. The Jewish populations do not pass the threshold percentage to appear on the map, but there are plenty of communities across the region.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.png

The materials of the region. Something very noticeable is the richness of minerals, with plenty of Iron, Copper, Tin, Lead, Gold, and Silver. Specifically, Slovakia is very rich, and you definitely want more settlers to migrate to the region, and exploit its resources. The region is also very rich in agricultural resources, as you can see.

Markets:
Markets.png

The region is mostly divided among four markets: Venice, Pest, Ragusa and Constantinople.

Country and Location population:
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Country and location population (which I’ve also sub-divided, and is under the Spoiler button).

And that’s all of today! I hope that you find the region interesting; we certainly think that it is. Next week we will go further south, and we will take a look at the Syrian Levant and Egypt. Cheers!
 
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Suggestions for the Bulgarian dynasty:

It should not be Sratsimir but rather Shishmanovtsi or Shishman.
Both Stratsimir and Shishman is correct. Shishman is in the case of Ivan Alexander matrilinial. His oldest son chose the patrilineal dynasty name Stratsimir and his younger son (from his beloved second wife, a converted Jewish woman) called himself Shishman. Maybe it was done so to differentiate them, because both of the sons were called Ivan.
 
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Ah the Balkans, one my favorite regions to look at maps, and for this dev diary I have noticed three small but nonetheless important mistakes, let's look at them all shall we?
sketch-1720255031952.png


-First the overall map with the regions that need some adjustments I have specifically drawn the regions with stripes of the country that they should belong too (or in the case for Hungary with bold orange, to signify how much should be under the Hungarian crowns suzrenity since there are no locations for those areas), I have also given the names of the places/regions so that the reader can have a direct look without needing to check for himself where those regions are.



Lets start from the northern part the Polish Hungarian border, the purple and olive stripes should become part of the Oravsky Podzamok and Leibitz locations respectively, as I showcase below to represent the 1337 borders.
sketch-1720255069884.png


The Orawa (Oravsky Podzamok) and Spis (Leibitz) border regions that today belong to Poland did not become a part of the State until 1920 with the decision of the conference of ambassadors on July of that year, until then they were an integral part of the kingdom of Hungary.
166-150110.jpg

IMG_20240706_114458.jpg


(The Jablonka town is located in the Oravsky Podzamok area)
IMG_20240706_114226.jpg


(While the location of Spis is in the Leibitz region)


Here I also showcase a beautifully detailed map of Poland showcasing the historic borders within modern day Poland (which also conveniently includes our troubled Polish-Hungarian border)
Krainy-historyczne-Polski.png





-Continuing on In the middle of our map we can see the Timok Valley as part of Serbia, below we see the missing region for Bulgaria highlighted with red stripes, basically the province of Vidin should be under Bulgarian control and not split up.
sketch-1720255058929.png


The three locations that should be added to Bulgaria at the start of the game, marked in red, while with black is the current border.
sketch-1720255062359.png


So to summarize at the time of 1337, the declining Second Bulgarian Empire and the Serbian Empire had used the Timok Valley as their border (and in a few years from 1337 the Tsardom of Vidin would emerge partly as a Serbian vassal).
Hungary also must border Bulgaria because in a few decades from the start date, the invasion and vassalization of the Vidin Tsardom wouldn't have been possible in 1365.
IMG_20240706_122037.jpg



-And ending in the southern most point of our map we have a very weird (and ugly if you ask me) looking salient between the Serbian Empire and the Byzantine Empire which includes the Kocani and Strumica locations.
IMG_20240706_123646.png


Those two towns had become part of the expanding Serbian Empire, Strumica itself was ruled directly from the Serbian King Stefan Dusan from 1334 onwards, while Kočani was first mentioned in a charter from 1337 in which Despot Jovan Oliver donated the church of St. Dimitrija to Kočani although it probably fell before Strumica itself, seeing it being so isolated with no strong fortifications to attempt to hold the town.
IMG_20240706_114133.jpg

IMG_20240706_113904.jpg


Thus those two locations in which I have highlighted with red should be part of King Stefan Dusan realm at the start of the game.
sketch-1720255066251.png



-I am aware that Wikipedia isn't the most credible source, so If anyone has better sources that mine or you see any major (or any mistake for that matter) please post them on the forum, the last thing I want to do is contribute to false information, thank you for taking your time to read this (and excuse my mistakes in grammar as I am not a native speaker).



-Edit-

I would also like to add that the Pirot location should also be included in the Bulgarian state, as the Church of St. Petka in Staničenje was built - at the time of Bulgarian Emperor Joan Asen in 1332 and since the last war between Serbia and Bulgaria took place in 1330 it is safe to assume that Pirot remained under Bulgarian control until the Ottoman's arrived.
IMG_20240711_235802.jpg



Although much later than our start date I showcase the borders of the two Bulgarian states that would emerge. With Pink the Tsardom of Vidin and dark Brown the Second Bulgarian Empire (The split would become de jure as well as defacto by 1356)
sketch-1720733735136.png
 

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I mean you had a bunch of posts about them getting turkey's culture wrong so I don't see a reason to complain about us having complaints.
Either way I don't know exactly when Megleno-romanians became a unique culture(and I doubt anybody does), but I don't see any particular reason for them not to be in the game. Plus don't think they'd be a one province culture, seeing that they exist in parts of Greece too, and paradox has a added a bunch of small cultures already, I don't see why one more would be bad
I am okay with your complaints lol. I will probably make a post about more Vlachs too. But the same long list of ingrievances probably doesn't work in your favor.
 
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To be honest, we aren't completely happy with the concept either, as we have four different cultures for the 'Germans of the East': Baltic German, Silesian German, Carpathian German, and Transylvanian German. But we think that it's the 'less bad' solution to portray the cultural melting pot that these places were for the different German settlers.
So no more Balten or Griko?

And, are they really German instead of Germanic since in WOC EU4 you guys have created that German assimilation mechanic, saying that German was not a integrated nation back in the age of EU?

XXX German clearly indicates that they are immigrants from a thing called “German”. It’s kinda interesting since if a Bavarian German immigrate to Transylvania, they would be called as Transylvanian German immediately but it wouldn’t be in game. I’m not sure if they have form any fundamental difference comparing to German in Germany but, perhaps it’s more a geographical concept back to 1337?
 
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Stop with nationalistic nonsense, Bosnia was never majority Croat, Bosnian rulers never considered themselves as Croats.
Stjepan sound like croatian name, Tvrtko sound like croatian name, Hrvoje Vukcic Hrvatinic litteraly have croat in his name. I dont know what you talking about me being nationalistic, im just saying facts from history. I like historical accuracy of the region dont care in whos favor it is
 
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So you haven't only not fixed the lack of the Principality of Muzaka, but you've given all of Topia to the Duchy of Durrazzo? Absurd.
Also, in 1210, Venetian documents declare "The Peninsula east of Corfu is populated by Albanians"
And in 1359 (only 22 years after the start date), Albanians in the complete south of Epirus revolt against Nikephoros II Orsini, defeat him in the battle of the Achelous river, where he himself dies, and create two Albanian Principalities in the complete south of Epirus, which following the death of Pjetër Losha, unified into one Despotate known as the Despotate of Arta.
How would they revolt as such and with success if they at least weren't a large minority in the region?
 
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but we also want to have a game rule set for 'full English' play
This so-called “full English” play is actually the vanilla name for each localization for their native names, while dynamic names are to present the difference on pronouncing.

There're actually three level:
  • Vanilla name in each localization, like Constantinople
  • Name-change in history, like Istanbul
  • Dynamic name by pronunciation, like Konstantiniyye
None-Latin alphabets localizations have made this even more complicated. Russian localization might be fine since it has kinda exact transcribing system with Latin alphabet but when it comes to Chinese, Korean and Japanese, there’re more variations due to the texture of each strings.
 
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and potentially Moldavian
Would we have a dynamic-generated Moldavian culture mechanic like CK3 or it’s just ah, a defined culture?
 
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I'm not sure about Albania being united! I think it should maybe be split into smaller tags
Certainly! It should be Duchy of Durrazzo lead by the Angevins in Durrës, the rest of the territory they labeled "Albania" is Topia, and the part of the province of Albania that's inside the Despotate of Epirus is Muzaka (which was fully independent and who's representation I've been asking for for months.
 
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Stjepan sound like croatian name, Tvrtko sound like croatian name, Hrvoje Vukcic Hrvatinic litteraly have croat in his name. I dont know what you talking about me being nationalistic, im just saying facts from history. I like historical accuracy of the region dont care in whos favor it is
What something sounds to you, means nothing, it's not a fact. Stjepan is just a version of Greek origin name Stefanos/Stephanos, just like Stefan, Stephen, Steven, Stefano etc.
 
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Provinces:
View attachment 1158268
Provinces! Nothing outstanding to be commented on here; as usual, we’re open to any feedback regarding them.
Again, I know it's not really related but I would like province of "Hradišťsko" in Moravia to be called "Zlínsko" (Zlín's first mention comes from 1322) and it also makes more sense for me as a Czech person rather than "Hradišťsko" while correct, it's not really a way we would name a kraj. (region)
 
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I made account jut for this.

Completely disagree about Slavic division.

First Bulgarian were minority in lands they conquered and then they got assimilated with culture they conquered so they should be also considered southern Slavic-speaking culture if not you should add at least one of many South Slavic tribes and make then majority on that territory as they were.

Second (and more important for me) is Bosnian as culture shouldn't exist, Bosnia was one of first Serbian lands and there were many rulers, dynasty Kotromanić is Serbian dynasty and we have Stefan Tvrtko I Kotromanić who got crowned on grave of Serbian saint Sava as Serbian King of Serbian lands. Idea for Bosnian as a language will appear century or few later.


I have exam coming up in few days so I couldn't read all my books on it but I just stole history book for Serbian 3rd grade of highschool from my lil sis (I know I stole it like I am some Romanian/Vlach not Wallachian) just to check things out about Tvrtko. I know only one book for highschoolers probably isn't enough of source for you guys to change anything but please just chek it few more times.

P.S. I forgot to say collors are nice (I don't like them gradually paleing towards middle of the country but I'll get used to it) BUT MAPS LOOOK FLAT EXTREMELY FLAT even impassible terrains look flat. Will some texture be added like I don't know maybe some completely unrelated game EUIV or we need to be happy with this flat map.
Kotromanić dinasty weren't Serbian, and Bosnia wasn't Serbian land. It's interesting how both, serbian and croatian nationalists try to claim Bosnia and Bosnian people being one or the other, which, paradoxically as it seems, just disproves your theories.
 
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What something sounds to you, means nothing, it's not a fact. Stjepan is just a version of Greek origin name Stefanos/Stephanos, just like Stefan, Stephen, Steven, Stefano etc.
What about Tvrtko and Hrvoje, those not croatian names too? Stop deluding yourself, islam came to bosnia with turks, before that they were catholics as per division from 1054, river of drina was border between orthodoxy and chatoilics. Chatolic south slavs were consider croats and were united as such in 10th century and yes their land acompass bosnia as well
 
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What something sounds to you, means nothing, it's not a fact. Stjepan is just a version of Greek origin name Stefanos/Stephanos, just like Stefan, Stephen, Steven, Stefano etc.
He secretly means Bosnian should be in same culture group with Greek
 
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I don't like the silly name Krstjani for the Bosnian Church. Catholics also call themselves Christians, but they are logically named Catholics to prevent unnecessary confusions. The name should be more specific.

And what about the Gypsies? They already existed in the Balkans in the 14th century. They came to Western Europe in the 15th century, but they will not be able to come if the Balkans do not have them first.
 
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Certainly! It should be Duchy of Durrazzo lead by the Angevins in Durrës, the rest of the territory they labeled "Albania" is Topia, and the part of the province of Albania that's inside the Despotate of Epirus is Muzaka (which was fully independent and who's representation I've been asking for for months.
I think you should link your thread here too, and maybe make a culture map. I also want to see Topia and Muzaka in the game.
 
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