Tinto Maps #9 - 5th of July 2024 - Carpathia and the Balkans

[Tokci]

This map is using propaganda numbers and population of Hungarians in Slovakia was actually much smaller
Proof one:
View attachment 1161102
After war number of Hungarians dropped significantly, despite population of Slovakia raising
View attachment 1161103
Proof two:
View attachment 1161104
Another chunk of Hungarians, that were not actually Hungarians
Proof three:
View attachment 1161106
Population growth of Hungarians was insane, despite lower birth rates, so logically, most of them were Slovaks that were Hungarians just on paper

Hungarians likely counted people in these censuses in a more favorable term to them. What if someone speaks both languages and has a Slovak dad and a Hungarian mother? It is also likely that Slovaks did the same to justify their new southern borders in 1919 and they also started a " Slovakization " process. There were refugees and population exchanges on both sides where people suddenly found themselves on the wrong side of the border and moved to a friendlier state during a time of heightened ethnic tensions. (Also some of my forefathers left Košice for Budapest) It is not a surprise that these nations became even more monoethnic while growing in overall population and losing minorities. My best guess based on these is there were fewer Hungarians, but the maps are not that far off.


present-day border Hungary population stats around that time:

Earlier Hungarian population stats in Slovakia:

 

[Bulletbob]

OK so I made an attemp to edit my suggestion map after looking at some other, better, suggestions that others made.
View attachment 1161067
- Split I think should not go too inland so I made the inner part Klis. (I do appologise if it is too unreadable, I am not the best at this)
- I also added Osijek as I think it should be on the map.
- Bjelovar should not be there as it was founded in 1756 so Čazma seems more appropriate as someone had suggested before.

Nice job with the map! Very helpful to have all the suggestions in one place

 

[Antimonum]

View attachment 1161028

This is a modern Dialect map mostly for internal Yugoslav usage. Serbia as the Yugoslav head power always had the subtle Idea to divide and somewhat dominate if not conquer. The truth is, that the Bulgarian language in the middle ages first Old Church Slavonik (Old Bulgarian), later (as in 1337) middle Bulgarian had a completely different grammar and fonation. Those languages are almost not intelligible to a modern Bulgarian. And today we have absolutely no Idiea of the Dialects which might have existed. If we look at written Language Bulgarian sources from the 14th century, then we notice, that the Turnovo Patriarch and a local Monk from Syar (today Serres) called Isay, write in the same language with the same Grammar and same Lexic. Isay wrote about the Battle of Chernomen. The Bulgarian Language (together with Macedonian Dialect) changed massively during the Ottoman rule and diverged into many Dialects. This divergence happened also with greek, but the Greeks took care of changing the "Demotika" Language back to a more classical Greek fashion.

So this divergence of dialects is unlikely in 1337 and using this map for medieval history is massively inappropriate.

By the way if you are interested how middle Bulgarian sounds, there is a recital of Monk Isay`s account of the battle of Chernomen in most of the song Chernomen of the Band Isihia. It sounds very cool but also very different from modern Bulgarian dialects (incuding Macedonian).

 

[JohnCro]

Nice job with the map! Very helpful to have all the suggestions in one place

Thank you, I tried to make it so it has both Venetian set border (the existing one) and Bosnian extent shown too

 

[PirateOfTheAdriatic]

While Varaždin most likely isn't the most relevant settlement in the area, due to the historical importance and exceptional geographical position it should be on the map. Yes, i am biased here as my favorite grandfather was from VŽ.

First mention of Varaždin was in 1181 in a document by Bela III regarding a dispute between Varaždin and Kaptol. Free city status was gained in 1209, given by Andrija II, and it was the first free city in Croatia, atleast according to 1.

Excelent location description is earned by being along the Drava river and on the old roman road. Varaždin is an excellent connection point towards Wien and "Germany". More on the history in source 2.

EDIT: Forgot my main point regarding a large number of added locations. I do not believe there is anything wrong with giving as much (relevant) information in the requested feedback as possible. In the end PTinto will decide what to implement and what not.

You are 100% right and I agree with you here, my point might nit have been too clear in what I was trying to convey. I tried to explain that if the devs are focused about portraying the area how it was in 1337 then Varaždin (alongside "Zagreb") should be split up into smaller locations which were more relevant in 1337. It would make 100% sense to keep it as a location because within a century it would already be a important fort and within 2 a Generalty. Spliting it up to portray Krapina or Trakoščan alongside it would be more accurate for that start date. And this is comming from someone who married into Varaždin and have bias towards it

Also thank you for clarifying, that reason didn't occur to me and now I understand your point with posting so many locations. Your post was great and it inspired me to post my first post on these forums so please, no hard feelings and keep up the great work!

 

[hutinsky]

You are 100% right and I agree with you here, my point might nit have been too clear in what I was trying to convey. I tried to explain that if the devs are focused about portraying the area how it was in 1337 then Varaždin (alongside "Zagreb") should be split up into smaller locations which were more relevant in 1337. It would make 100% sense to keep it as a location because within a century it would already be a important fort and within 2 a Generalty. Spliting it up to portray Krapina or Trakoščan alongside it would be more accurate for that start date. And this is comming from someone who married into Varaždin and have bias towards it

Point taken regarding Trakoščan. It would more fit into general area where Vinica is depicted, strictly geographically. I'm still lobbying to depict Lobor on the map, as it was strategical location from which one would be able to control a large area.

Interesting short read: https://lobor.hr/povijest/

 

[ShishRobot]

Is in PC Dalmatian an italian or slavic/croatian culture? Will Ragusa be italian or croatian? It should be italian/venetian by culture if i remember correctly

 

[Ahmadmltft]

How could I believe such a thing when I made this topic 1 month ago:

Helping the Devs with the Carpathian Region (Wallachia, Moldavia, Transylvania)

In the last Tinto Maps, Pavía said the following: Also, a side note: we will talk about Moldavia in the Tinto Maps devoted to the Carpathian region, as it’s currently in a ‘placeholder’ spot. Meaning this is not the final version but a...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

There were a lot of in-depth thing there.

But not even the basic issues were changed (from what we could see from the corners of other maps back then), let alone the more advanced things?

I really wish to believe you. But how can I do so when for example, they knew that Wallachia/Transylvania made no sense, and they still made a Wallachia/Transylvania split for some reason. To name one of the most basic ones, not even going into the fine details mentioned in the topic.

Every map suggestions get looked at in the TM posts and back then(and even now) many people told you that,you ignoring it doesn't change anything.

 

[Krix333]

This is a modern Dialect map mostly for internal Yugoslav usage. Serbia as the Yugoslav head power always had the subtle Idea to divide and somewhat dominate if not conquer. The truth is, that the Bulgarian language in the middle ages first Old Church Slavonik (Old Bulgarian), later (as in 1337) middle Bulgarian had a completely different grammar and fonation. Those languages are almost not intelligible to a modern Bulgarian. And today we have absolutely no Idiea of the Dialects which might have existed. If we look at written Language Bulgarian sources from the 14th century, then we notice, that the Turnovo Patriarch and a local Monk from Syar (today Serres) called Isay, write in the same language with the same Grammar and same Lexic. Isay wrote about the Battle of Chernomen. The Bulgarian Language (together with Macedonian Dialect) changed massively during the Ottoman rule and diverged into many Dialects. This divergence happened also with greek, but the Greeks took care of changing the "Demotika" Language back to a more classical Greek fashion.

So this divergence of dialects is unlikely in 1337 and using this map for medieval history is massively inappropriate.

By the way if you are interested how middle Bulgarian sounds, there is a recital of Monk Isay`s account of the battle of Chernomen in most of the song Chernomen of the Band Isihia. It sounds very cool but also very different from modern Bulgarian dialects (incuding Macedonian).

Macedonian Lexicon - 16th Century
Record of the Macedonian language

The texts presented for analysis in this article were produced by the Institut Detudes Slave, De L'universite De Paris in 1958, and are a study based on words and phrases from Macedonia in the 16th century. It is one of the earliest manuscripts written in a purely Macedonian vernacular tongue, and its content was collected from the village of Bogatsko, which is found in the region of Kostur in the south-west of Macedonia. The author remains anonymous and the only likely conclusion that can be drawn is that he may have spoken the Macedonian language natively or acquired it as an additional tongue due to living in close proximity to people who spoke it. The texts were written using the Greek alphabet, which was not uncommon in the Balkans during the Ottoman period, as similar examples with the Albanian and Vlach languages have demonstrated. Furthermore, the 'Bulgarian' label that was at times attached to the Macedonian language is employed in the texts, remnant terminology that had remained in use largely due to Macedonia's former location within the Bulgarian Empire. Despite this, however, there can be no doubt that the dialect (and indeed location) of Bogatsko belongs to Macedonia, and not Bulgaria.

Macedonia during the Middle Ages

By the end of the 14th century, Macedonia had already been under Ottoman rule for a few decades, losing its status as a vassal state under the leadership of King Marko in 1395. As the greater region was finally deprived of any sense of liberty after the death of George Kastriot - Skenderbeg in 1444, forms of local state structure in Macedonia ceased to exist. This left the responsibility of retaining the culture, language and identity of the people with the religious institutions that were active in Macedonia at that time. The traditional influence of the Patriarchate at Constantinople that was prevalent during the Roman period had resurfaced again in the Ottoman Empire, as the latter looked to use the former to consolidate a single Roman Millet of Orthodox Christians within their domains. However, institutions such as the Archbishopric of Ohrid and even more significantly the hundreds of churches in Macedonia, played a pivotal role in ensuring the local culture, language and identity of the people would survive throughout the centuries of hardships.

Despite the absence of written works relating to statehood, material of a religious and educational character continued to flourish, and Church Slavonic, an essentially Macedonian tongue that was initially developed for such purposes in the 9th century, remained the literary language of the Macedonian people. However, the vernacular tongue of the Macedonians had co-existed with Church Slavonic and matured over the years, demonstrating a remarkable resilience and stability, which earned its introduction as the language of church services in Macedonia. The Macedonians were faced with foreign interference in both their lands and institutions, but their language had been largely solidified, evidenced by the fact that spoken Macedonian from the 16th century has a far greater affinity to spoken Macedonian dialects of today than it does to Church Slavonic. For well over half of a millenium, the Macedonian language has basically remained the same.

Vocabulary and Linguistic Characteristics

The texts reveal distinctive local features that have tenaciously survived the ages, and are still present in a number of today's spoken Macedonian dialects. This fact reveals the remarkable consistency of the Macedonian language despite the lack of state support or schooling until the 20th century. Below is a sample of words from the texts, along with linguistic characteristics peculiar to the language of the Macedonians.

Animal/Food/Anatomy Terms - Mrave (Ants); Curvec (Worm), Sokol (Falcon), Vrapci (Birds), Golobi (Pigeons), Kokoshki (Chickens), Petel (Rooster), Ofci (Sheep), Kozi (Goats), Jagne (Lamb), Mechika (Bear), Elen (Deer), Lisica (Fox), Kon (Horse), Krusha (Pear), Meso (Meat), Sireni (Cheese), Jajca (Eggs), Vino (Wine), Sol (Salt), Zhito (Grain), Koska (Bone), Gas (Buttocks), Kuro (Penis), Made (Testicles).

Unique and Loan Words - The word Galuhci (Mice) is used, which can also be said as Gluhci or Glufci, and Macedonians are the only people who use this word. The word Veligden (Easter) is used, pronounced with the 'g' in Macedonian only. Turkish loans are very rare, one example being Jorgano (Blanket).

Dialectal and Jat Features - The Kostur region contains dialects that have several interesting characteristics, such as the word Ranka (Hand) rather than the more common Macedonian variant of Raka. An interesting trend is found in the use of multiple transitions of the Jat feature that is present in various Macedonian and Slavonic dialects. For example, the text employs the word Dedo (Grandfather) and not Djado, yet Hljap (Bread) and not Lep or Leb.

Definite Articles - The typical Macedonian postfixed definite article is exhibited in words such as Krushata (The Pear) and Dushata (The Soul). It is also noted in the word Patot (The Path) for 'the path' , although as the case of Jorgano (The Blanket) demonstrates, the 't' at the end can also be dropped, as in several of today's Macedonian dialects.

Words and Phrases, Unchanged for Centuries.

Containing a rich glossary and in excess of 300 words and phrases, the texts demonstrate the strength of the Macedonian language through preservation. Following is a comparison of sentences between the texts and the Macedonian dialect of Bitola as spoken today.

16th cent., Kostur dialect
21st cent., Bitola dialect

Gospodine, brate, da si zdrav, da si prost, ostavi ni da spime, ela da jame, i da pieme, dol (?)da pojdime, da rabotime.
Gospodine, brate, da si zdrav, da si prost, ostai ne da spiame, ela da jaime, i da piame, dolu (?) da pojdime, da rabotime.

Imate hljap-o da kupime, imate vino da kupime, ot koja strana da pojdime vo Bogasko.
Imate lep da kupime, imate vino da kupime, od koja strana da pojdime vo Bogatsko.

As can be clearly noticed, most of the vocabulary and grammar is identical.

All of the elements that would later be required to rejuvinate the Macedonian people as they were shaking off centuries of subjugation, were present during this period. The language of the people had solidified, a tradition of heraldry and symbolism had developed which incorporated the emblem of a rapant lion and historical figures from Macedonia's past, and the churches continued preserve the local customs and serve as cultural centres for the population. The significance of all these elements together cannot be overstated, the language of medieval Macedonia is the same as the language of the Macedonians today. Unfortunately, only a small portion of the larger amount of Macedonian literature from the Middle Ages has survived, much of it being looted and destroyed by Greek-speaking officials, clerics and teachers. Nevertheless, Macedonian as a language reached its current form centuries before the creation of the Balkan states in the 19th and 20th centuries.

 

[ShishRobot]

damn every balkan map is gonna be a hell for moderator to get the threads clean

 

[Antimonum]

View attachment 1161188
Macedonian Lexicon - 16th Century
Record of the Macedonian language

The texts presented for analysis in this article were produced by the Institut Detudes Slave, De L'universite De Paris in 1958, and are a study based on words and phrases from Macedonia in the 16th century. It is one of the earliest manuscripts written in a purely Macedonian vernacular tongue, and its content was collected from the village of Bogatsko, which is found in the region of Kostur in the south-west of Macedonia. The author remains anonymous and the only likely conclusion that can be drawn is that he may have spoken the Macedonian language natively or acquired it as an additional tongue due to living in close proximity to people who spoke it. The texts were written using the Greek alphabet, which was not uncommon in the Balkans during the Ottoman period, as similar examples with the Albanian and Vlach languages have demonstrated. Furthermore, the 'Bulgarian' label that was at times attached to the Macedonian language is employed in the texts, remnant terminology that had remained in use largely due to Macedonia's former location within the Bulgarian Empire. Despite this, however, there can be no doubt that the dialect (and indeed location) of Bogatsko belongs to Macedonia, and not Bulgaria.

Macedonia during the Middle Ages

By the end of the 14th century, Macedonia had already been under Ottoman rule for a few decades, losing its status as a vassal state under the leadership of King Marko in 1395. As the greater region was finally deprived of any sense of liberty after the death of George Kastriot - Skenderbeg in 1444, forms of local state structure in Macedonia ceased to exist. This left the responsibility of retaining the culture, language and identity of the people with the religious institutions that were active in Macedonia at that time. The traditional influence of the Patriarchate at Constantinople that was prevalent during the Roman period had resurfaced again in the Ottoman Empire, as the latter looked to use the former to consolidate a single Roman Millet of Orthodox Christians within their domains. However, institutions such as the Archbishopric of Ohrid and even more significantly the hundreds of churches in Macedonia, played a pivotal role in ensuring the local culture, language and identity of the people would survive throughout the centuries of hardships.

Despite the absence of written works relating to statehood, material of a religious and educational character continued to flourish, and Church Slavonic, an essentially Macedonian tongue that was initially developed for such purposes in the 9th century, remained the literary language of the Macedonian people. However, the vernacular tongue of the Macedonians had co-existed with Church Slavonic and matured over the years, demonstrating a remarkable resilience and stability, which earned its introduction as the language of church services in Macedonia. The Macedonians were faced with foreign interference in both their lands and institutions, but their language had been largely solidified, evidenced by the fact that spoken Macedonian from the 16th century has a far greater affinity to spoken Macedonian dialects of today than it does to Church Slavonic. For well over half of a millenium, the Macedonian language has basically remained the same.

Vocabulary and Linguistic Characteristics

The texts reveal distinctive local features that have tenaciously survived the ages, and are still present in a number of today's spoken Macedonian dialects. This fact reveals the remarkable consistency of the Macedonian language despite the lack of state support or schooling until the 20th century. Below is a sample of words from the texts, along with linguistic characteristics peculiar to the language of the Macedonians.

Animal/Food/Anatomy Terms - Mrave (Ants); Curvec (Worm), Sokol (Falcon), Vrapci (Birds), Golobi (Pigeons), Kokoshki (Chickens), Petel (Rooster), Ofci (Sheep), Kozi (Goats), Jagne (Lamb), Mechika (Bear), Elen (Deer), Lisica (Fox), Kon (Horse), Krusha (Pear), Meso (Meat), Sireni (Cheese), Jajca (Eggs), Vino (Wine), Sol (Salt), Zhito (Grain), Koska (Bone), Gas (Buttocks), Kuro (Penis), Made (Testicles).

Unique and Loan Words - The word Galuhci (Mice) is used, which can also be said as Gluhci or Glufci, and Macedonians are the only people who use this word. The word Veligden (Easter) is used, pronounced with the 'g' in Macedonian only. Turkish loans are very rare, one example being Jorgano (Blanket).

Dialectal and Jat Features - The Kostur region contains dialects that have several interesting characteristics, such as the word Ranka (Hand) rather than the more common Macedonian variant of Raka. An interesting trend is found in the use of multiple transitions of the Jat feature that is present in various Macedonian and Slavonic dialects. For example, the text employs the word Dedo (Grandfather) and not Djado, yet Hljap (Bread) and not Lep or Leb.

Definite Articles - The typical Macedonian postfixed definite article is exhibited in words such as Krushata (The Pear) and Dushata (The Soul). It is also noted in the word Patot (The Path) for 'the path' , although as the case of Jorgano (The Blanket) demonstrates, the 't' at the end can also be dropped, as in several of today's Macedonian dialects.

Words and Phrases, Unchanged for Centuries.

Containing a rich glossary and in excess of 300 words and phrases, the texts demonstrate the strength of the Macedonian language through preservation. Following is a comparison of sentences between the texts and the Macedonian dialect of Bitola as spoken today.

16th cent., Kostur dialect
21st cent., Bitola dialect

Gospodine, brate, da si zdrav, da si prost, ostavi ni da spime, ela da jame, i da pieme, dol (?)da pojdime, da rabotime.
Gospodine, brate, da si zdrav, da si prost, ostai ne da spiame, ela da jaime, i da piame, dolu (?) da pojdime, da rabotime.

Imate hljap-o da kupime, imate vino da kupime, ot koja strana da pojdime vo Bogasko.
Imate lep da kupime, imate vino da kupime, od koja strana da pojdime vo Bogatsko.

As can be clearly noticed, most of the vocabulary and grammar is identical.

All of the elements that would later be required to rejuvinate the Macedonian people as they were shaking off centuries of subjugation, were present during this period. The language of the people had solidified, a tradition of heraldry and symbolism had developed which incorporated the emblem of a rapant lion and historical figures from Macedonia's past, and the churches continued preserve the local customs and serve as cultural centres for the population. The significance of all these elements together cannot be overstated, the language of medieval Macedonia is the same as the language of the Macedonians today. Unfortunately, only a small portion of the larger amount of Macedonian literature from the Middle Ages has survived, much of it being looted and destroyed by Greek-speaking officials, clerics and teachers. Nevertheless, Macedonian as a language reached its current form centuries before the creation of the Balkan states in the 19th and 20th centuries.

The people of today`s North Macedonia did not speak at all the modern dialects, the same way the people of eastern Bulgaria did not. Just listen to Monk Isay`s accounts of the Battle of Chernomen. This man was supposed to be in the Region of Macedonia, but speaks completely different then any modern Balkan Slavic people.

By the way. The same Language was used in Tarnovgrad (written Language). The examples of modern dialects are completely wrong hier, although I also wish you to be zdrav i prost

 

[kyotogrand]

Why Romanyoti and not Romaniote? AFAIK Romanyoti is a Modern Hebrew coinage and being Greek speakers they probably would have called themselves Romaniotes, since it's a Greek term.

Also, would it be possible to see about adding more support for OpenType  features to the game, particularly kerning? In all the previous games that support OpenType fonts directly, they seem to not take into account kerning/contextual alternates/ligatures (ffi, etc) that the font has programmed in, and from the Wa in Wallachia and the Ky in Kyiv from a few maps ago, it seems Caesar is in a similar spot w/rt text rendering.

It'd be really nice to see PC implement full or at least more complete support. The current fonts in the game look lovely and proper letter spacing would make them look just that much nicer.

 

[Krix333]

The people of today`s North Macedonia did not speak at all the modern dialects, the same way the people of eastern Bulgaria did not. Just listen to Monk Isay`s accounts of the Battle of Chernomen. This man was supposed to be in the Region of Macedonia, but speaks completely different then any modern Balkan Slavic people.

sure broski even the french are lying

Also prost in macedonian means dumb or illiterate so u wished me to be healthy and illiterate?? translate your message to macedonian pls i dont speak bulgarian

 

[Antimonum]

sure broski even the french are lying

You are misinterpreting your sources. Surely the French did not speak of the Language in the 14th century.

 

[Antimonum]

The people of today`s North Macedonia did not speak at all the modern dialects, the same way the people of eastern Bulgaria did not. Just listen to Monk Isay`s accounts of the Battle of Chernomen. This man was supposed to be in the Region of Macedonia, but speaks completely different then any modern Balkan Slavic people.

By the way. The same Language was used in Tarnovgrad (written Language). The examples of modern dialects are completely wrong hier, although I also wish you to be zdrav i prost

I would like to also add, that Isai did not write in the official language, since he was not living inside the Bulgarian Tsardom (he was in Serres) and still wrote in middle Bulgarian.

 

[Krix333]

You are misinterpreting your sources. Surely the French did not speak of the Language in the 14th century.

ahh yess misinterpreting my sources like its the bible i am reading and not works from universities also idk if u even read the entire thing, the study is from 1958 the words that the french got r from the 16th century

 

[Antimonum]

sure broski even the french are lying

Also prost in macedonian means dumb or illiterate so u wished me to be healthy and illiterate?? translate your message to macedonian pls i dont speak bulgarian

Yes, the same in Bulgarian, I made a silly joke, because that was your example.

 

[Antimonum]

ahh yess misinterpreting my sources like its the bible i am reading and not works from universities also idk if u even read the entire thing, the study is from 1958 the words that the french got r from the 16th century

Still way to late to be a valid reference.

 

[Krix333]

Still way to late to be a valid reference

"still way to late to be a valid source" sure buddy i also wish u to be Zdrav i prost as u already are

 

[Antimonum]

"still way to late to be a valid source" sure buddy i also wish u to be Zdrav i prost as u already are

It is too late though. 200 years under Ottomann rule is enough for the language to change (and it did all over Bulgaria)