Tinto Maps #9 - 5th of July 2024 - Carpathia and the Balkans

[Silverbow]

The original names are Slavic, not specifically Ruthenian. And you basically argue that the Carpathian Basin has been in a demographic stasis ever since the Hungarian conquest...
And again, what matters is how a placename adopts to another language, since that can give us a clue about the population.

Pray tell what other kind of Slavic would you put in there then, aside from generic "Slavic" or maybe even "White Croat"? Out of cultures ostensibly present in the game, Ruthenian makes the most sense by far. Slovak makes no sense - and I say that as a Slovak - while Hungarian makes even less.

 

[bokorthedust]

The least dense configuration i could imagine being able to work is something like this:

Ngl, that division is giving me the creeps for some reason. I get the Old and New Pannonia division (even though the latter is already starting to make my skin crawl), but High Pannonia especially just feels so wrong on so many levels. I can't really propose a better solution but I'm going to keep thinking about it.

 

[Cigan1330]

Albania

So I'm trying to make sense of what was coming on in that fabled land in 1337, but there is a lot of conflicting information; I was trying to stick something together from earlier suggestions in this thread and from what I've read on Wikipedia. I am not an expert on Albania and might be wrong.

Locations

I only added two locations here, Pogradec and Lushnjë, mostly to try to follow river borders.
Pogradec was under Gropa control, and I based its southern border on the river Devoll which formed the border between the Muzaka and Gropa lands.
Lushnjë was split off of the parts of Kavajë that were South of the river Shkumbin (I did not follow the flow of the river pixel perfect here, sorry), and represents the area of Myzeqe between the Shkumbin and Seman rivers, but I have also granted it a corridor to the Vjosa river (which may or may not be accurate).
I also adjusted the remaining parts of Kavajë to include the actual area of the town.
Çermenikë is a suggested alternative name for Elbasan. Elbasan was founded later, by the Ottomans, so instead I would suggest using this name, which was also the seat of an Orthodox and later a Catholic diocese.

View attachment 1195473

Countries

This part is very problematic, due to the scarcity of information on this topic, and even the data we have is contradicting eachother.

Kingdom of Albania/Duchy of Durazzo: reduced to only the location of Durazzo
Thopia: controls Krujë and Kavajë; it is also possible that Kavajë could be controlled by the Matarangas. May also be called the County of Mat
Mataranga: they controlled lands around the Karavasta lagoon in Myzeqe both before and after the start date, but I did not find evidence of them in 1337. Nevertheless I couldn't find concrete evidence for any major country permanently occupying this location in 1337 either; Andronikos III did supposedly wage a punishing war against the tribes in Central Albania, but it seems to not have been an occupation or annexation of those lands but rather some light punishing, at least that's what it appears like for me. The Matarangas swore (nominal) allegiance to the Angevins, or were in a coalition with them.
Muzaka: during the reign of Andrea II, controls Berat and Devoll atm. He does seem to have served the Angevins, and had titles such as Marshal of Albania. An earlier suggestion in this thread suggested making the Muzaka principality a Byzantine vassal, but I think their allegiance based on the limited sources I've read seems to have lied closer to the Angevin kings. They could also be independent and in an alliance or a Coalition with Durazzo. They could alternatively be called the Lordship of Berat
Valona: either under direct Byzantine control or under Epirus, I'm not sure, please someone correct me on this.
Gropa: similar case to the Matarangas; Ohrid and Pogradec were already under Gropa rule long before the start date and became an independent principality after it, but in 1337, I have no idea. As far as I know they also controlled Debar, but I chose not to depict that here. Their inclusion or noninclusion depends mostly on the gameplay design, I guess;

I also do not know where the area of Elbasan and Çermenikë belonged to, if it belonged to anyone. This map depicts it as already occupied by Serbia in 1334, so I went with that.

View attachment 1195475

This all may or may not be wrong, definitely feel free to correct me.

I suggested something similar, but I would have to disagree on situation around Ohrid.
Ohrid was captured by Dusan in 1334 and it was held by Dusan directly.
At the startdate governor of Ohrid was Branko Mladenovic (founder of Brankovic dynasty)

Branko Mladenović - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I would make Gropa possible governor of Ohrid if player desides to replace Branko or if his sons leave Ohrid for their traditional lands in Drenica (historicaly this happened after his death).

 

[ArVass]

That's hardly an option, realistically speaking. Especially since Carpathia is right next to the super dense Germany.

The least dense configuration i could imagine being able to work is something like this:
View attachment 1195465
The naming is still quite rough, but Pannonia and Hungary became more or less synonymous terms in this time period, so calling the area past the Danube also "Pannonia" isn't a misnomer. The "old", "new" and "high" adjectives addmittedly are arbitrary though.

Edit: Szölős/Ugocsa should be in "High Pannonia"

Spoiler: Adjusted map

View attachment 1195474

I would also like to add that I would personally prefer more areas.

"Hungary" is not necessarily to be avoided; the current setup Tinto uses has "Hungary", "Slovakia", "Transylvania" and "Slavonia", and many of the so-far revealed geographical areas denote cultural-geographical divisions such as those (actually, most of them; Africa even has are names such as Akan and Kru). So for example Western Hungary for Transdanubia might work, also would Great Plains or the Pannonian Plains for its repective area (minus the Transdanubian parts of it), Slovakia can be called Northern Hungary or Northern Carpathians (or maybe Slovakia but that is also an anachronism), but if it was split into East and West (a common theme in its medieval and early modern macro-level subdivisions) it can also go by a bunch of alternative names for those two. Slavonia could and probably should be different than Transdanubia/Western Hungary. One possible source of additional possible are names is the areas of the dukátus, that of Bihar, Nyitra, and possibly Krassó, though the institution of these duchies didn't exist anymore by the 14th century...

All in all, there are plenty of possibilities and a dozen different permutations for the area setup, many different versions for different tastes; let's see what Tinto goes with from the existing proposals, I guess.

I suggested something similar, but I would have to disagree on situation around Ohrid.
Ohrid was captured by Dusan in 1334 and it was held by Dusan directly.
At the startdate governor of Ohrid was Branko Mladenovic (founder of Brankovic dynasty)

Branko Mladenović - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I would make Gropa possible governor of Ohrid if player desides to replace Branko or if his sons leave Ohrid for their traditional lands in Drenica (historicaly this happened after his death).

So you would say no Ohrid lordship vassal; so something like this?

On another note; Krujë might be too large compared to the tiny neighbouring Durrës, so it may make sense to split it into two: Northern half (north of the Ishëm river and the Mat region) would stay Krujë, while southern half would either be Petrelë (site of earlier medieval castle built by Justinian), or Tirana (first mentioned in 1418 it seems); or maybe even Prezë (another castle).

 

[Futski]

It's the overall available area. The remarks concerning the summer heat are valid though, that's a reason why the pastorialists kept wandering back and forth seasonally on the two sides of the mountains.

Right, but we have mentions of relatively small areas, like the Athos peninsula holding much higher numbers of Vlachs, than you do. So maybe you need to take those numbers into account for how many pastoralists that can live in an area.

Personally, I would also assume modelling this number on Greece, which has been home to the same kind of people, and still is to this day, is a better guiding stick, than modelling it on France or England, who to my knowledge didn't have a similar pastoral population.

I would also like to add that Bogdan could only have had some meagre forces coming with him from Máramaros, most of his supporters were locals. He was likely related to Balk's family, which allowed him to have a base of supporters within the young principality.

Balc who was a descendant from Dragoș, who similarly came from across the Carpathians. So essentially the local supporters in Moldova would also be recent transplants.

I pose the question: why is it a better method to retrospectively project values onto communities about which we have no concrete mass data, only scattered local (and we've collected those too)? A concept operating on analog modeling from age data (French, English system) has the same relevance.

How does modelling data from England and France have the same relevance as the frontline against every invading steppe people from the east? These countries haven't experienced prolonged periods where the lands were dominated by nomads.

That's how demographic vacuums work. The Pecheneg-, then Cuman-, then Mongol-infested Wallachian plains had low populations, which decreased even further with the Pecheneg, Cuman, then Jassic/Jász settlement in Hungary. Similar story can also be told in regards to Moldavia, with Ruthenians also factored in.

Yes, but where exactly did they experience the population vacuum south of the Danube, that allowed them to generate a population surplus, that could be used to settle the entire plains of the lower Danube and along the Siret, Prut and Dniester. All in the span of less than a 100 years, if we go by 1241-1242. Given that there were continued attempts by the Golden Horde to invade the Balkans and Central Europe, it's probably even less time, if the population growth had to only happen post-settlement formation.

And this mobile excess population was the primary source of the first settlings all across the under- or nonpopulated parts of the Eastern half of the country. These were first and foremost more mountainous areas, suitable for the Vlachs' pastorialist lifestyle.

Right, and why wouldn't they have known about those mountainous pastures prior to the 13th and 14th century? It's not like those areas just appeared out of nowhere. Additionally, with frequent raiding and attacks by nomads, pastures up in the mountains during the summer months seem like an excellent location to hide during

I think its not hard to see how a settled lifestyle in valleys and lowlands leads to a larger population than transhumance pastorialist lifestyle conducted in the mountains. The Romanian population experienced a dramatic increase exactly when they began to dwell on lower lands as well (made possible by appearing demographic vacuums and settling efforts).

Of course, but the premise is not that the populations should be incredibly high and dense. There is a great middle ground between tens of thousands, and the 75 Romanians in the Máramarossziget location.

Also, given how short the time frame is, of roughly 80-100 years prior to game start, either it's totally within the realm of possibility that the seeding population is much higher than you estimate, meaning that the hills and mountainous areas can support a higher population than you estimate, or else the birth rates must be some of the highest ever imagined.

New churches need to be built were there aren't any. The Balkans was firmly Orthodox with many already built churches, leaving less need to build

Okay then, how come we don't know of any permanent church site in Wallachia thats older than the church in Curtea Argeș, which was built in 1352? Byzantine sources mention Vlachs living in the area much earlier than that, despite us having no evidence of them building churches there. Count Joachim of Hermanstadt is said to have had Vlachs in his service in a campaign against rebellious Cumans in Bulgaria.

In a letter from 1234 to Duke Béla of Transylvania, Pope Gregory IX mentions Vlachs living in the Diocese of Cumania, writes about how they have Greek rite pseudo-bishops, and how they have persuaded some Catholics settling there to join the Orthodox church.

Yet, as far as I know, we don't have any evidence of any physical churches in the area from that time.

(although new ones certainly were built, Vlachs built monasteries in the Dinaries for example).

Can you mention any? My search for them returns a blank. As far as I know, the only permanent things they left behind there were the stećci, but those are more like tombstones, not churches.

The building of new Orthodox churches/monasteries where weren't any previously tells us the establishment of notable Orthodox population in a certain region, and it is the charters and other historical data that can help us determine the ethnicity of said group.

We have writings from the literal Pope a hundred years before game start about concerns that Orthodox Vlachs in one of his Diocese converting Catholic Hungarians and Saxons in the area between modern day Brașov and the Siret river, despite us not having any evidence of actual orthodox churches in the area.

Also, how exactly do you imagine Vlachs would keep their Orthodox faith in the long run if they don't have any churches/monasteries to provide service to them in the vicinity?

Again, as mentioned right before, the earliest church within Wallachia and Moldavia is from 1352. It's possible they had shrines, built churches out of wood, had travelling bishops before that. Early Christians also managed to keep their belief despite not having any churches for the first long time, instead relying on small, secret services inside houses.

We have no description of these churches, but evidently they managed to stay Orthodox.

But it tracks for a people that migrates seasonally, if you erect a church, leave for half a year, its probably been plundered or destroyed by the time you get back half a year later, especially in a location so susceptible to raiding armies.

Now the question, since we have written evidence of them managing being Orthodox Christian in the lands between the Carpathians and the Danube before the Mongol invasion just fine, what exactly contradicts that they would also at the same time have lived around the pastures and valleys of the Carpathians before the Mongol Invasion.

Since we don't have any evidence of churches on the Wallachian plain, I don't see why it's reasonable to rule out whether or not there have been Vlachs in the mountain areas north of the Carpathians in this period.

As mentioned, it's the better side for grazing during the summer.

Compared to that, Ruthenians arriving from the Northeast encountered less people speaking languages like theirs, and were also subject to conversion pressures, which also increased the likelihood of their assimilation.

Are we talking about the same North East? This area is where the Slavic Language Area begins, there are people speaking Slavic languages all around them to the west, north and east, Poles, Slovaks, other Ruthenians.

If they were surrounded on all sides by Hungarians, you would have had a case, but the area was very much on the outer margins, with the people right next to them speaking Slavic languages. Like what languages do you think they spoke In the Principality of Galicia directly to their east and north?

Terrain is another thing to consider. In Slovakia, there are many mountains and valleys, making the area outstandingly dissected

The area in question is more or less a geographical extension of Slovakia. Anything that's true for Slovakia is true for Transcarpathia.

Another thing:
Orthodox population was a bit less welcome than Catholics during this time period, they were subject to conversion efforts, which inadvertedly also made them more susceptible to linguistic assimilation as well (not necessarily to Hungarian, but to the language of the local Catholics).

Yet despite this, the claim is that Orthodox people immigrated in droves, and managed to become a majority.

This game needs concrete numbers though, and our work tries to adhere to that based on best possible evidences available, which are as concrete as they can possibly be for the era. Are they estimates? Yes, but these are based on modern, professional academic quantitative research.

Like, so far you've already agreed to having wrong assumptions about the suitability of the northern slopes of the Meridional Carpathians as grazing grounds for animals, which suggests you need to update the model you use to make your estimates from.

The weight you place on churches and monasteries also seem out of place, when we consider the lack of such sites elsewhere.

Furthermore, there are the special rights/privileges to take into account. A culture with such can also have a stronger staying power. In the case of Vlachs (not only Romanians, but also Ruthenians), the Vlach Right is something to consider in this regard. This is a privilege closely associated with the Kenéz/Voivode institution and can be dated to appear in Hungarian charters between the 13-16th centuries.

Why would you grant these privileges to immigrants who didn't even convert to Catholicism?

The future Moldavia wasn't exactly far away,

Which begs the question why they weren't just sent the remaining 150 km further in the first place to establish a March if they were immigrants.

An alternative is that they were local nobles in the Northern Carpathians, who were tasked with settling their pastoral people. Upon doing so, they were realised to be much more numerous than anticipated, which enabled the king to launch an expedition beyond the mountains.

 

[Cigan1330]

"Hungary" is not necessarily to be avoided; the current setup Tinto uses has "Hungary", "Slovakia", "Transylvania" and "Slavonia", and many of the so-far revealed geographical areas denote cultural-geographical divisions such as those (actually, most of them; Africa even has are names such as Akan and Kru). So for example Western Hungary for Transdanubia might work, also would Great Plains or the Pannonian Plains for its repective area (minus the Transdanubian parts of it), Slovakia can be called Northern Hungary or Northern Carpathians (or maybe Slovakia but that is also an anachronism), but if it was split into East and West (a common theme in its medieval and early modern macro-level subdivisions) it can also go by a bunch of alternative names for those two. Slavonia could and probably should be different than Transdanubia/Western Hungary. One possible source of additional possible are names is the areas of the dukátus, that of Bihar, Nyitra, and possibly Krassó, though the institution of these duchies didn't exist anymore by the 14th century...

All in all, there are plenty of possibilities and a dozen different permutations for the area setup, many different versions for different tastes; let's see what Tinto goes with from the existing proposals, I guess.


So you would say no Ohrid lordship vassal; so something like this?
View attachment 1195618


On another note; Krujë might be too large compared to the tiny neighbouring Durrës, so it may make sense to split it into two: Northern half (north of the Ishëm river and the Mat region) would stay Krujë, while southern half would either be Petrelë (site of earlier medieval castle built by Justinian), or Tirana (first mentioned in 1418 it seems); or maybe even Prezë (another castle).
View attachment 1195623

Gropa Domain might be formable nation that has cores on Ohrid area, I also suggested that if one Albanian family gains independence and annexes Albanian TAG that it inherits Albania and gets Dutchy rank. Albania in this case would use flag of dynasty that united Albania.

Also I would depict Muzaka's domain as a vassal of Byzantines, Thopia lands themselves could be independent or de jure vassal of Albania.

 

[TomislavAddai]

Regarding culture, especially given that Polish was separated into Greater and Lesser Polish , it seems reasonable to consider having Tsakonian as a separate culture and Albanian split into Gheg and Tosk

 

[Ispil]

I suggested something similar, but I would have to disagree on situation around Ohrid.
Ohrid was captured by Dusan in 1334 and it was held by Dusan directly.
At the startdate governor of Ohrid was Branko Mladenovic (founder of Brankovic dynasty)

Branko Mladenović - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I would make Gropa possible governor of Ohrid if player desides to replace Branko or if his sons leave Ohrid for their traditional lands in Drenica (historicaly this happened after his death).

Honestly, the vanilla game isn't really set up to represent all of Serbia's internal divisions prior to the dissolution of the Empire. Better saved for a disaster that spawns them as the Empire unravels over 20 years.

Now, with my plan for modding in administrative divisions, that's another story.

 

[ArVass]

Exxxxx
Also I would depict Muzaka's domain as a vassal of Byzantines, Thopia lands themselves could be independent or de jure vassal of Albania.

Why would the Muzakas be a Byzantine vassal? I haven't read anything to suggest they served the Byzantines in 1337; sure, they were recognised by the Roman court, but from what I've read both the Muzakas and Thopias both pretty clearly pledged at least alliance but according to some sources they kept up being de jure vassals of the Angevins.

According to Wikipedia:
Alliance with Albanian leaders was also crucial to the safety of the Kingdom of Albania, especially during the 1320s and 1330s. Most prominent among these leaders were the Thopias, ruling in an area between the rivers Mat and Shkumbin,[35] and the Muzaka family in the territory between the rivers Shkumbin and Vlorë.[36] They saw the Angevins as protectors of their domains and made alliances. During 1336–1337 Charles had various successes against Serb forces in central Albania.[37]

As soon as Andrea II Muzaka had obtained the title of despot, he endorsed an anti-Byzantine revolt (1335-1341) in his domains, and also formed an alliance with the Anjou from Naples on 30 December 1336, whereas he was recognized as a vassal of Robert, Prince of Taranto. As proof of his fidelity to the Capetian House of Anjou, Andrea II Muzaka had to leave one of his sons as hostage in Durazzo.[12]

Andrea II Muzaka: "He was recognized Despot of the Kingdom of Albania and as Marshal of Albania by the Angevin Kingdom of Albania in 1336-37"

So it seems to me that in this time period he (Andrea II) was acting as a vassal to the Angevins

 

[Polesie Admiral]

towns and cities mapmode, Bulgaria has lots of towns

 

[ArVass]

towns and cities mapmode, Bulgaria has lots of towns
View attachment 1196682

It is sort of reasonable, though I would prefer:
- more towns on the Albanian coast, with Zadar, Split etc. as towns or cities
- Zagreb as a town
- Bulgaria interestingly is disproportionately more urbanized than any other country in the region, I'm unsure why
- it's hard to talk about Hungary without seeing it reworked with more locations (by most proposals and estimates it would get close to twice as many locations as it currently does), but those that certainly should be towns are: Buda, Pozsony, Kolozsvár, Kassa, Szeben, Körmöcbánya, Székesfehérvár, Szeged, Pest, Sopron, Várad, with more additional possibilities depending on the balance aimed
- interesting how townless Austria, Bohemia and Moravia are (pretty sure Brno, Olomouc, Kutná Hora, and Linz for example would realistically be towns), but this belongs to that TM instead

 

[Tantara]

towns and cities mapmode, Bulgaria has lots of towns
View attachment 1196682

1. Adrianople should probably be a city, given its stature as the third most important city in the Byzantine Empire after Constantinople and Thessalonica. It was a key military center and center of the Byzantine's only remaining wealthy province, whic was part of the reason why the Ottomans moved their capital there from Bursa.
2. Athens should absolutely not be a city, given its depopulation, being a town at most. The Genoese routinely grabbed marble from abandoned buildings to ship back to Genoa.
3. Thebes should be a town, given its economic importance in the silk industry. Thebes was at time literally the capital of the Duchy of Athens as the more economically significant of the two.
4. Patras should probably be a town, if Corinth is. Patras had its own mint, was perhaps the key Latin holding in the Morea, and it was forced to import Italian grain (indicating population above what was sustainable from the immediate environs).
5. Argos/Nauplia arguably might also be a town given Venice's keen interest

EDIT: The Via Militaris should absolutely be on here, at least to Sophia (or perhaps Nis), with gravel roads potentially extending to Belgrade. Though ancient, the roadway was still trafficked. The Ottoman conquest of the Balkans followed the Via Militaris (noticing the nexus in Adrionople/Edirne), indicating its continued existence at this time

 

[dacoklk]

Drijeva should change its goods into slaves if possible since it was the largest slave market in the eastern Adriatic during the Middle Ages and the wealthiest city in the Bosnian kingdom at the time.

 

[Mingmung]

Drijeva should change its goods into slaves if possible since it was the largest slave market in the eastern Adriatic during the Middle Ages and the wealthiest city in the Bosnian kingdom at the time.

Slaves are not a tradegood, but function through a different mechanic (probably something population-related, too).

 

[Clyde Wallach]

We have divided the Southern Slavic-speaking region into their dialectal families of Slovene, Croatian, Bosnian, and Serbian.

I'm sorry, but you didn't. First of all, you completely forgot about Bulgarian/North Macedonian.

But even more tellingly, putting Slovenian aside, those aren't the dialects of Serbo-Croatian. The dialects of Serbo-Croatian are Shtokavian, Chakavian, Kajkavian, and Torlakian. Kajkavian is a transitional dialect between Serbo-Croatian and Slovene; Torlakian between Serbo-Croatian and Bulgarian/North Macedonian. Shtokavian is nowadays spoken by all the 4 major Serbo-Croatian-speaking ethnic groups (Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, and Montenegrins); Chakavian and Kajkavian exclusively by Croats; and Torlakian mainly by Serbs but also some Bulgarians and North Macedonians (transitioning to the neighboring dialects of their languages) and a few Croats.

Shtokavian is by far the most spoken and widespread dialect, which is why it forms the basis for the standard Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, and Montenegrin languages. This is the result of population movements caused by the Ottoman conquest, and the linguistic situation is 1337 would have been more balanced; Kajkavian, for one, seems to have lost a lot of ground.

The reason I call this telling is that anyone familiar with this situation can see the problem with using linguistic/dialectal divisions as the basis of culture. In the case of Serbo-Croatian-speakers, the division that has always mattered, to the point of genocide, has been religion. A Shtokavian-speaking Catholic will see a Chakavian-speaking Catholic as a fellow Croat and a Shtokavian-speaking Serb as a foreigner, and quite possibly an enemy. Calling Croatian and Serbian "dialectal families" isn't just a mistake, it's a mistake born of a fundamentally incorrect way of assigning culture.

(Edited for punctuation.)

 

[Ispil]

I'm sorry, but you didn't. First of all, you completely forgot about Bulgarian/North Macedonian.

But even more tellingly, putting Slovenian aside, those aren't the dialects of Serbo-Croatian. The dialects of Serbo-Croatian are Shtokavian, Chakavian, Kajkavian, and Torlakian. Kajkavian is a transitional dialect between Serbo-Croatian and Slovene, Torlakian between Serbo-Croatian and Bulgarian/North Macedonian. Shtokavian is nowadays spoken by all the 4 major Serbo-Croatian-speaking ethnic groups (Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, and Montenegrins); Chakavian and Kajkavian exclusively by Croats; and Torlakian mainly by Serbs but also some Bulgarians, North Macedonians (transitioning to the neighboring dialects of their languages) and a few Croats.

Shtokavian is by far the most spoken and widespread dialect, which is why it forms the basis for the standard Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, and Montenegrin languages. This is the result of population movements caused by the Ottoman conquest, and the linguistic situation is 1337 would have been more balanced; Kajkavian, for one, seems to have lost a lot of ground.

The reason I call this telling is that anyone familiar with this situation can see the problem with using linguistic/dialectal divisions as the basis of culture. In the case of Serbo-Croatian-speakers, the division that has always mattered, to the point of genocide, has been religion. A Shtokavian-speaking Catholic will see a Chakavian-speaking Catholic as a fellow Croat and a Shtokavian-speaking Serb as a foreigner, and quite possibly an enemy. Calling Croatian and Serbian "dialectal families" isn't just a mistake, it's a mistake born of a fundamentally incorrect way of assigning culture.

For 1337, honestly cultural divisions hardly mattered when it came to conquest at all. The reason why Serbia was more reluctant to expand into Bosnia as opposed to conquering Greek lands is because, in the conquest of Greek lands, the local nobility would be displaced and could be replaced with Serbian nobles looking for rewards for their support of the government; conquests in Bosnia would leave the original nobles in place and hence provide little gain for the existing Serbian nobility.

Were there distinct cultural identities at this time? Sure, but they weren't that big a factor, and more had to do with the notion of cultures developing around the various polities and their individual historical trajectories (Croatia, Catholic and exposed much more to Europe through its personal union with Hungary; Serbia, Orthodox and exposed instead to the Byzantine Empire; Bosnia, caught between the two, Catholic but remote, ultimately developing a mix of governance based on Hungarian and Serbian influences). Hence why acquisition of lands in Bosnia by Serbia would leave the Bosnian nobility in place; similarity in governance (and the fact that they could often be coerced into supporting the Serbian conquest) meant that there was no real reason to remove them from power after acquisition.

I'd also say that emphasizing the religious distinction in 1337 is probably overblown. Stefan Dušan was more than willing to use the Catholic church when it served him, though it's clear he regarded it with disdain. Stefan the First-Crowned was crowned by the Pope, after all. Hell, this wasn't even that uncommon; the Bulgarians also would promise accepting the supremacy of the Pope in exchange for a favor such as coronation and then renege on their promise.

 

[milance]

Oi Paradox ! Tired of nationalistic uproar in the Balkans? Wiki Historians? The discussion being 75 PAGES LONG????
No worries mate I've got you covered!
Only 1(ONE!) way to beat Nationalism and that's with Tribal-Ethno-Nationalism!!!!

Thaat`s right with this "T.E.N." you`ve just put the nationalists out of business!!! CONGRATULATIONSS!!!
With this TEN you put the ball in their court! Now a patriotic boundary lover will have to chose a ethnic group that's based on their future nationality instead of the nationality OMG!!! Should a Croat chose a Croatian ? Or Slavonian? Or Bosnian ? Or of course the south Slavic Croatian tribe of Moesians based in eastern ,,bulgaria" ??? Hmmm tough choice BUT IS THEIRS NON THE LESS!!!
Why should they blame you for not getting the game juuuust right, when they can blame each other for not understanding history!!!

No Nationality - No Nation - NO PROBLEM!





DO IT!

JUST DO IT!

YOU KNOW YOU WANT TO!

DO IT JUST DO IT!

 

[Ekyman]

Oi Paradox ! Tired of nationalistic uproar in the Balkans? Wiki Historians? The discussion being 75 PAGES LONG????
No worries mate I've got you covered!
Only 1(ONE!) way to beat Nationalism and that's with Tribal-Ethno-Nationalism!!!!

View attachment 1198206

Thaat`s right with this "T.E.N." you`ve just put the nationalists out of business!!! CONGRATULATIONSS!!!
With this TEN you put the ball in their court! Now a patriotic boundary lover will have to chose a ethnic group that's based on their future nationality instead of the nationality OMG!!! Should a Croat chose a Croatian ? Or Slavonian? Or Bosnian ? Or of course the south Slavic Croatian tribe of Moesians based in eastern ,,bulgaria" ??? Hmmm tough choice BUT IS THEIRS NON THE LESS!!!
Why should they blame you for not getting the game juuuust right, when they can blame each other for not understanding history!!!

No Nationality - No Nation - NO PROBLEM!





DO IT!

JUST DO IT!

YOU KNOW YOU WANT TO!

DO IT JUST DO IT!

Is that Vlachlantis out in the ocean there?

 

[aleko12]

towns and cities mapmode, Bulgaria has lots of towns
View attachment 1196682

where is this map forum at??

 

[Inzano]

where is this map forum at??

Here: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-31-2nd-of-october-2024.1706918/post-29914163