Tinto Maps #9 - 5th of July 2024 - Carpathia and the Balkans

[Inzano]

Oi Paradox ! Tired of nationalistic uproar in the Balkans? Wiki Historians? The discussion being 75 PAGES LONG????
No worries mate I've got you covered!
Only 1(ONE!) way to beat Nationalism and that's with Tribal-Ethno-Nationalism!!!!

View attachment 1198206

Thaat`s right with this "T.E.N." you`ve just put the nationalists out of business!!! CONGRATULATIONSS!!!
With this TEN you put the ball in their court! Now a patriotic boundary lover will have to chose a ethnic group that's based on their future nationality instead of the nationality OMG!!! Should a Croat chose a Croatian ? Or Slavonian? Or Bosnian ? Or of course the south Slavic Croatian tribe of Moesians based in eastern ,,bulgaria" ??? Hmmm tough choice BUT IS THEIRS NON THE LESS!!!
Why should they blame you for not getting the game juuuust right, when they can blame each other for not understanding history!!!

No Nationality - No Nation - NO PROBLEM!





DO IT!

JUST DO IT!

YOU KNOW YOU WANT TO!

DO IT JUST DO IT!

Can you write a list of this cultures, in Istria and Dalmacia I can not even read what culture is writen? xD

Another question is, why did you include a part of Slovenians under the northwestern culture (probably Istrian)?

 

[Polesie Admiral]

where is this map forum at??

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-31-2nd-of-october-2024.1706918/post-29914163 here

 

[Trepanator]

it's Peć, not Peč. Also Priština. This will stab me in the soul when i play Serbia... You know what? Just let us rename stuff however we want.

 

[dacoklk]

Slaves are not a tradegood, but function through a different mechanic (probably something population-related, too).

damn, I didn't know that. Thanks bud!

Id like to also add that id like to see Jajce become a city as it was fairly large and well developed in relation to surrounding places, and was even the capital of the Bosnian kingdom

 

[milance]

Can you write a list of this cultures, in Istria and Dalmacia I can not even read what culture is writen? xD

View attachment 1198283

Another question is, why did you include a part of Slovenians under the northwestern culture (probably Istrian)?

I didnt there's a checkmark see as A-OK no need to change, and yes its Vlahlantis we deporting the Morlacs back where they came from.

And it goes Slovene, then Istiran(or Otocani(islanders)) , Croatian, Slavonian, Bosnian, Pomorian( Paganian or Nerethian), Zetan(or Dukljan) ,Raskan(or Rasian as it should be but didnt want to confuse them) Serbian, Shopi(or Torlak but not really) Brsjak(or it can be Mijak), Dragoviti(Draguviti) and then the Bulgarians i made up The Trakians, we can push the Shops and Dragovites more east no prob especialy Dragovites can go as far as Marica , so no need for the "Trakians" but still a hefty territory to split in bulgaria so i added Moessian(There were as far as the 19th century people calling themselves Moessians and the territory Lower(Ser) and Upper(Bul) Moessia but i doubt it was the masses.

Albania split in Tosk and Gegh for the dialects , some Albanian can come up with the names for the North maybe Sqiptars and South Arvanites , i would add small pockets of them in Greece but the dev already prob know that but the should not be different from the one in the homelands. (also why Albanians in Kosovo and Macedonia they were not there yet there's tons of docs on that, they are already toughen out from the EU4 start if you give them a easier start they will just spam the roman empire)

The Greeks are Macedonian , Epirote ,Athenian , Corinthian(Or Peloponnesian , i just wanted to give them some character) and Traciann. The islands , Create and Anatolia i give that to the devs.
Slovens - Ok
Istrians - Still to this day have strong autonomous feelings (I called them Otocani(Islanders) because the Cakavian that makes them different its in Istra and the western isles of Croatia)
Croatian - basic
Slavonian- basic
Bosnian - basic
Pomorian - Pagania the last place in the balkans the slavic fate died out 10th century, they had their own thing, own country , big pirates , Venice first rivals , territory bit busted why not. Neretvian or Neretian most proper but Pomorian and Paganian sounds cool also
Raskan- its Rasian and the basic name for medieval Serbs but i have read in a few places where mostly foreigner are distinguishing them from Serbians and Macedonians
Serb- basic
Shopi - its a well know etnic group from Bulgaria the devs already have Shopluk(the luk at the end makes it turkish) the just need to add them to the greater Shopluk area
Brsjak- Well know up until the 20th century mostly in west-southwest-south (Today)Macedonia and a bit of Greece but we can push them more south instead of the Dragovites- More famous then then today , you would think the name ends in the 8th century but it hangs on as Wikipedia(Yes) surprised me --in the 13th century, Demetrios Chomatenos mentions them as "ruling" all the land from Veroia up to Skopje.--
Bulgarian- basic
Moessian - wrote above
Trakian - made up , not really there were Bulgarians calling themselves that but in the 19th century onwards , as for before .... idk ask a Bulgarian im Moessian i dont care i hate them

All lines are loosely put, if the devs decide to do it like this(SMART) then i doubt they will need to fallow them as it will change the gameplay a lot, so its more a game thing then 14th century book thing.

The we did it by the dialects its a nice bs-f-u excuse this is how we did it, but it makes no sense for me.
wtf is a Bosnian dialect in the 14th century or even Serbian?? and this is the time the time the Bulgarian and Macedonian language start fragmenting and start loosing its grammatical cases and end few centuries later, Macedonian some say as early as X but most likely XII - XVI/XVII and Bulgarian in the XIV-XVIII/XIX(They are still slowly loosing some its not over bro)
so the difference between Serbian / Macedonian / Bulgarian at that time .... basically non existent , definitely not like today


Not trying to be Balkan but i am and what can i doo.... but for me (A DEFINITIVE NON EXPERT IN ALL OF THE SCIENTIFIC ARTS(im a plumber ... not a good one)....jk im not a plumber i don't have a job or a profession it hard out there especially out here) for me the ,,eastern south Slavic language group,, only exists so they can group the Bulgarian and Macedonian language together and more easily explain why and how they lost their grammatical cases, even though it happened at different times in different places, and ended up differently. They are just being hyper specific and pushing back the boundaries, it was way more fun back in the day when everyone that didn't speak perfect Serbian and everyone who spoke any Fed up variety of a Slavic language to be classified Bulgarian.

 

[Inzano]

View attachment 1198589
I didnt there's a checkmark see as A-OK no need to change, and yes its Vlahlantis we deporting the Morlacs back where they came from.

And it goes Slovene, then Istiran(or Otocani(islanders)) , Croatian, Slavonian, Bosnian, Pomorian( Paganian or Nerethian), Zetan(or Dukljan) ,Raskan(or Rasian as it should be but didnt want to confuse them) Serbian, Shopi(or Torlak but not really) Brsjak(or it can be Mijak), Dragoviti(Draguviti) and then the Bulgarians i made up The Trakians, we can push the Shops and Dragovites more east no prob especialy Dragovites can go as far as Marica , so no need for the "Trakians" but still a hefty territory to split in bulgaria so i added Moessian(There were as far as the 19th century people calling themselves Moessians and the territory Lower(Ser) and Upper(Bul) Moessia but i doubt it was the masses.

Albania split in Tosk and Gegh for the dialects , some Albanian can come up with the names for the North maybe Sqiptars and South Arvanites , i would add small pockets of them in Greece but the dev already prob know that but the should not be different from the one in the homelands. (also why Albanians in Kosovo and Macedonia they were not there yet there's tons of docs on that, they are already toughen out from the EU4 start if you give them a easier start they will just spam the roman empire)

The Greeks are Macedonian , Epirote ,Athenian , Corinthian(Or Peloponnesian , i just wanted to give them some character) and Traciann. The islands , Create and Anatolia i give that to the devs.
Slovens - Ok
Istrians - Still to this day have strong autonomous feelings (I called them Otocani(Islanders) because the Cakavian that makes them different its in Istra and the western isles of Croatia)
Croatian - basic
Slavonian- basic
Bosnian - basic
Pomorian - Pagania the last place in the balkans the slavic fate died out 10th century, they had their own thing, own country , big pirates , Venice first rivals , territory bit busted why not. Neretvian or Neretian most proper but Pomorian and Paganian sounds cool also
Raskan- its Rasian and the basic name for medieval Serbs but i have read in a few places where mostly foreigner are distinguishing them from Serbians and Macedonians
Serb- basic
Shopi - its a well know etnic group from Bulgaria the devs already have Shopluk(the luk at the end makes it turkish) the just need to add them to the greater Shopluk area
Brsjak- Well know up until the 20th century mostly in west-southwest-south (Today)Macedonia and a bit of Greece but we can push them more south instead of the Dragovites- More famous then then today , you would think the name ends in the 8th century but it hangs on as Wikipedia(Yes) surprised me --in the 13th century, Demetrios Chomatenos mentions them as "ruling" all the land from Veroia up to Skopje.--
Bulgarian- basic
Moessian - wrote above
Trakian - made up , not really there were Bulgarians calling themselves that but in the 19th century onwards , as for before .... idk ask a Bulgarian im Moessian i dont care i hate them

All lines are loosely put, if the devs decide to do it like this(SMART) then i doubt they will need to fallow them as it will change the gameplay a lot, so its more a game thing then 14th century book thing.

The we did it by the dialects its a nice bs-f-u excuse this is how we did it, but it makes no sense for me.
wtf is a Bosnian dialect in the 14th century or even Serbian?? and this is the time the time the Bulgarian and Macedonian language start fragmenting and start loosing its grammatical cases and end few centuries later, Macedonian some say as early as X but most likely XII - XVI/XVII and Bulgarian in the XIV-XVIII/XIX(They are still slowly loosing some its not over bro)
so the difference between Serbian / Macedonian / Bulgarian at that time .... basically non existent , definitely not like today


Not trying to be Balkan but i am and what can i doo.... but for me (A DEFINITIVE NON EXPERT IN ALL OF THE SCIENTIFIC ARTS(im a plumber ... not a good one)....jk im not a plumber i don't have a job or a profession it hard out there especially out here) for me the ,,eastern south Slavic language group,, only exists so they can group the Bulgarian and Macedonian language together and more easily explain why and how they lost their grammatical cases, even though it happened at different times in different places, and ended up differently. They are just being hyper specific and pushing back the boundaries, it was way more fun back in the day when everyone that didn't speak perfect Serbian and everyone who spoke any Fed up variety of a Slavic language to be classified Bulgarian.

The second question was abaout this part:

But yes, thank you for a more detailed insight into South Slavic cultures.

 

[milance]

As i said its the Chakavian and since it was much more represented in the eastern islands and more north in Croatia in the past, and for gameplay reasons they deserve a bigger territory , i just didnt want to cut in Croatia's territory so i screwed the Slovenes , why not they were historically a bit more north Koruska and stuff.

It was not for you its for the devs i dont like you like that :*

 

[Inzano]

As i said its the Chakavian and since it was much more represented in the eastern islands and more north in Croatia in the past, and for gameplay reasons they deserve a bigger territory , i just didnt want to cut in Croatia's territory so i screwed the Slovenes , why not they were historically a bit more north Koruska and stuff.

It was not for you its for the devs i dont like you like that :*

If in some places they give very small minorities as their culture, which cannot even be seen on the map, they could also realistically show the South Slavic cultural borders. In my proposal, I gave a much more detailed proposal for Inner Austria, in which I also included Istria and Rijeka. We could just change the Croatian culture to Otocan and we would have the same colorful cultures in Istria as it was.

 

[Ispil]

Anyone have a good source on the various Orthodox episkopies of Serbia, Bulgaria, and the Byzantines in this period? I can find locations of the churches themselves, but not good estimates as to what would appropriately be each's jurisdiction.

Someone provided a lovely one for Georgia/Armenia, but I've found no equivalent for Greece and the Balkans.

 

[Cigan1330]

Why would the Muzakas be a Byzantine vassal? I haven't read anything to suggest they served the Byzantines in 1337; sure, they were recognised by the Roman court, but from what I've read both the Muzakas and Thopias both pretty clearly pledged at least alliance but according to some sources they kept up being de jure vassals of the Angevins.

According to Wikipedia:
Alliance with Albanian leaders was also crucial to the safety of the Kingdom of Albania, especially during the 1320s and 1330s. Most prominent among these leaders were the Thopias, ruling in an area between the rivers Mat and Shkumbin,[35] and the Muzaka family in the territory between the rivers Shkumbin and Vlorë.[36] They saw the Angevins as protectors of their domains and made alliances. During 1336–1337 Charles had various successes against Serb forces in central Albania.[37]

As soon as Andrea II Muzaka had obtained the title of despot, he endorsed an anti-Byzantine revolt (1335-1341) in his domains, and also formed an alliance with the Anjou from Naples on 30 December 1336, whereas he was recognized as a vassal of Robert, Prince of Taranto. As proof of his fidelity to the Capetian House of Anjou, Andrea II Muzaka had to leave one of his sons as hostage in Durazzo.[12]

Andrea II Muzaka: "He was recognized Despot of the Kingdom of Albania and as Marshal of Albania by the Angevin Kingdom of Albania in 1336-37"

So it seems to me that in this time period he (Andrea II) was acting as a vassal to the Angevins

Andrea II Muzaka did fight along Byzantines and he menaged to beat one Serbian unit on mountain Pelester for what he was given a honor from Byzantine court.
But I get your point, he was defacto independent and he switched allegence to who benefited him the most, so I proposed a vassal type that would be completely nominal and would more allign as a alliance.
And seems that you are right, Muzaka county would be a nominal vassal of Angevins.

 

[Cigan1330]

towns and cities mapmode, Bulgaria has lots of towns
View attachment 1196682

Interesting mapmode, but some towns are missing:

1. Serres was one of largest cities in ERE at the startdate, very important fortification. Fall of Serres in September 1345 was a massive victory for Stefan Dusan.

Serres - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

2. Trikala was town in Thessaly.

Trikala - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

3. Skadar should be a town as well.

Shkodër - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

4. Pristina should be a town.

5. Velbazd should be a town.

6. Bobovac could be depicted as a town as well.

Bobovac - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

7, Prilep was important town in the region. Dusan had built court there.

 

[domagoj222]

As i said its the Chakavian and since it was much more represented in the eastern islands and more north in Croatia in the past, and for gameplay reasons they deserve a bigger territory , i just didnt want to cut in Croatia's territory so i screwed the Slovenes , why not they were historically a bit more north Koruska and stuff.

It was not for you its for the devs i dont like you like that :*

look at the map, but keep in mind that at the end of the 13th century the proces of replacement of Chakavian language with Shtokavian started and the map is from the 16th century ( basically western shtokavian replaced chakavian)
You can trace Croatian naming practice that spreads on parts of todays Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, and parts of Montenegro before heavy slavenization of language ( names of places, mountains, water bodies and even surnames.. that ends on AC, EC, AN, EN, AR, IN, NA ...).

 

[Inzano]

look at the map, but keep in mind that at the end of the 13th century the proces of replacement of Chakavian language with Shtokavian started and the map is from the 16th century ( basically western shtokavian replaced chakavian)
You can trace Croatian naming practice that spreads on parts of todays Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, and parts of Montenegro before heavy slavenization of language ( names of places, mountains, water bodies and even surnames.. that ends on AC, EC, AN, EN, AR, IN, NA ...).

I'll just upgrade your map.

A - Čabar or Čeber (a local and Slovenian name) was part of Slovenian culture for a long time, later due to the strong Croatian politics in the 19th century, they defined themselves as Croats and officially defined them as having a Kaikavian dialect.

B - The wider area of Delnice was geographically Čakavian, because in the 17th century the Zrinjski noble family settled this area with the Čabar Slovenes, so the Kajkavian dialect prevailed in this part. That is why even Vrbovsko still speaks the Čakavian dialect to this day, like an island that was not inhabited by the Čabaran people.

C - Žumberak or Gorjanci were Slovenian until the 16th century, then in 1578 they became part of the Croatian War Region. In order to flee from the Turks, the Štokavian Croats settled in this area and assimilated the Slovenes.

 

[domagoj222]

I'll just upgrade your map.

A - Čabar or Čeber (a local and Slovenian name) was part of Slovenian culture for a long time, later due to the strong Croatian politics in the 19th century, they defined themselves as Croats and officially defined them as having a Kaikavian dialect.

B - The wider area of Delnice was geographically Čakavian, because in the 17th century the Zrinjski noble family settled this area with the Čabar Slovenes, so the Kajkavian dialect prevailed in this part. That is why even Vrbovsko still speaks the Čakavian dialect to this day, like an island that was not inhabited by the Čabaran people.

C - Žumberak or Gorjanci were Slovenian until the 16th century, then in 1578 they became part of the Croatian War Region. In order to flee from the Turks, the Štokavian Croats settled in this area and assimilated the Slovenes.

View attachment 1199256

View attachment 1199252

A - first known feudal rulers of (gorski kotar) were Frankopans, who already in the 14th century established trade routes and rest stations that became settlements. Čabar ( slovenian) already existed as a settlement, and it started assimilating into Croatian culture at that time (14th century). And i agree that they were slovenian.
B - I also agree that people from Čabar settled the wider area of Delnice in the 17th century (at that time they already considered themselves Croats) and that is why Kajkavian is spoken in that area today.
C - I also agree
Your map shows what is left from chakavian language today.

 

[Cigan1330]

Some more flag suggestions:

 

[matfer13]

Some more flag suggestions:

View attachment 1199315

It seems like they are using flags and banners where they can(they used the flag with horizontal stripes for Aragon in the last saturday building) instead coat of arms so I'm pretty sure these:

The second one is Bulgaria also they are gonna use the coat of armse for dynasties though

 

[milance]

If in some places they give very small minorities as their culture, which cannot even be seen on the map, they could also realistically show the South Slavic cultural borders. In my proposal, I gave a much more detailed proposal for Inner Austria, in which I also included Istria and Rijeka. We could just change the Croatian culture to Otocan and we would have the same colorful cultures in Istria as it was.

damnn bro ... are you crazy ?
Delete this ... you giving it away for free , they should be paying you for this .. like 5 bucks per province or 1 DLC per region .. know your worth king

Also you guys reeealy go into dept with these , i was just giving a solution to what looked like a prob to me
As for the Otocani ofc we could i added them last just to make the map more colorful , also some buffer zone between the Croats and Slovens(Since i cant really split them) or more lovingly put a culture that they can bond over <3

 

[Cigan1330]

As I made this suggestion about a Rila location, I noticed, the current map does not allow acces to it from Bulgaria, since the Monastery is only accessible through Stob (currently named anachronistically Blagoevgrad in the game map).

I then looked at sources for the border and found the research of Professor Toma Tomov called "On the topic of the Velbuzhd Battle". He researched local legends and monastery archives and managed to describe the following Border with Serbia after the Battle:

View attachment 1160028

He found sources for the north part of the Border up to Dolna Dikanya after which he drops the Border almost straight down, which I find unrealistic. If you look south of Dolna Dikanya - the only sensible Border is to follow the Topolnitsa and Dzherman River upstream to Struma river, which wold place Stob and the access to Rila inside Bulgarian borders , but consequently also most of Dupnitsa (then called Dubnitsa) inside of Bulgaria. His research shows that the fields inside modern Radomir (most of Zemengrad location) was inside Bulgaria and the Border passes on the fortress of Zemen.

I painted on google maps to explain what I mean with clear topography:
View attachment 1160031

Yellow border is the Bulgarian border according to Professor Toma Tomov (only researched in the north to Dolna Dikanya in pink)
The orange Border follows the rivers Topolnitsa and Dzherman to the south of Dolna Dikanya down to Stob.
Red is the Border of Rila Monastery location, only accessible from the west.
Purple is Dupnitsa (Dubnitsa back then). The Dupnitsa location would be mostly inside Bulgaria if you follow the Rivers as a border.
Blue is Velbazhd (Today Kyustendil). Inside Serbia
Green is Zemengrad (showing most of the province inside Bulgaria according to Toma Tomov).

The northern part of the Border seems to be very plausible, which shines a light on the fact, that there is no reason for Pirot to be inside Serbia in 1337, nor a reason for the western locations of Bdin Province to be in Serbia.

So this is how the most plausible border according to Toma Tomov research and considering an access to Rila would look like in game (painted in yellow):

View attachment 1160096

Rila Monastery in 1337 was in hands of Serbian noble Hrelja who later defected to Byzantines while Dusan was seriously ill in 1340.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrelja

So Rila monastery, Strumitsa and Stip should be depicted as part of Serbian Kingdom.

 

[Antimonum]

Rila Monastery in 1337 was in hands of Serbian noble Hrelja who later defected to Byzantines while Dusan was seriously ill in 1340.

View attachment 1199619

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrelja

View attachment 1199620

So Rila monastery, Strumitsa and Stip should be depicted as part of Serbian Kingdom.

Yes indeed Hrelyo was involved with construction of the tower of the Monastery. A number of Bulgarian Tsars also donated money to the Mount Atos Monasteries, which never were inside Bulgaria. If Rila was in Serbia in 1337 I wonder, how was Ivan Shishman in possession of the lands around the Monastery, to hand them to the monastery with a charter in 1378. As far as I know, there were no wars between Bulgaria and Serbia after 1330.

 

[ST_Peter]

I know I'm very late to this map, but you should consider adding as a location in-game Didymoteichon, which was an important fortress for John VI during the Byzantine Civil War of this period, and it was where he was initially proclaimed emperor by his men in 1341. It was a very important place for John VI, as it served as his main stronghold in Thrace for the civil war.

Thank you.