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Tinto Maps #9 - 5th of July 2024 - Carpathia and the Balkans

Greetings, and welcome to another Tinto Maps! This week we will be taking a look at Carpathia and the Balkans! It will most likely be an interesting region to take a look at, with a lot of passion involved… So I’ll just make an initial friendly reminder to keep a civil discussion, as in the latest Tinto Maps, as that’s the easiest way for us to read and gather your feedback, and improve the region in a future iteration. And now, let’s start with the maps!

Countries:
Countries.png

Carpathia and the Balkans start in a very interesting situation. The Kingdom of Hungary probably stands as the most powerful country in 1337, but that only happened after the recovery of the royal power enforced by Charles I Robert of the House of Anjou, who reined in the powerful Hungarian nobility. To the south, the power that is on the rise is the Kingdom of Serbia, ruled by Stefan Uroš IV Dušan, who has set his eyes on his neighbors to expand his power. The Byzantine Empire, meanwhile, is in a difficult position, as internal struggles ended in Andronikos III being crowned sole emperor, at the cost of dividing the realm; both Serbia and Bulgaria have in the past pressed over the bordering lands, while the Ottomans have very recently conquered Nicomedia. The control over the Southern Balkans is also very fractioned, with a branch of the Anjou ruling over Albania, the Despotate of Epirus under the nominal rule of Byzantium as a vassal, Athens, Neopatria and Salona as vassals of the Aragonese Kings of Sicily, Anjou protectorates over Achaia and Naxos, and only nominal Byzantine control over Southern Morea. It’s also noticeable the presence of the Republics of Venice and Genoa, which control several outposts over the Adriatic and Aegean Seas. A final note: in previous maps, Moldavia was shown in the map, but we’ve removed it from it, and it will most likely spawn through a chain of events in the 1340s.

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The House of Anjou rules over Naples, Hungary, Albania, Achaia, and Cephalonia; they’re truly invested in their push for supremacy over the region. Apart from that, each country is ruled by different dynasties, except for Athens and Neopatria, ruled by the House of Aragón-Barcelona.

Locations:
Locations 1.png

Locations 2.png

Locations 3.png

Locations 4.png
This week we’re posting the general map of the region, along with some more detailed maps, that can be seen if you click on the spoiler button. A starting comment is that the location density of Hungary is noticeably not very high; the reason is that it was one of the first European maps that we made, and we based it upon the historical counties. Therefore, I’m already saying in advance that this will be an area that we want to give more density when we do the review of the region; any help regarding that is welcome. Apart from that, you may notice on the more detailed maps that Crete appears in one, while not being present in the previous one; because of the zooming, the island will appear next week along with Cyprus, but I wanted to make an early sneak peek of the locations, given that is possible with this closer zoom level. Apart from that, I’m also saying in advance that we will make an important review of the Aegean Islands, so do not take them as a reference for anything, please.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

Provinces! Nothing outstanding to be commented on here; as usual, we’re open to any feedback regarding them.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain! The climate of the region is mostly divided between Continental and Mediterranean, with some warmer and some colder regions. Regarding the topography, the Carpathian mountains are famously important and strategic, while the Balkans are a quite hilly and mountainous region, which is also greatly covered by woods and forests.

Cultures:
Cultures.png

Here comes the fun part of the DD: The cultural division of the Balkans! A few comments:
  1. Hungary is full of different minorities. Transylvania, especially, is an interesting place: there we have a mix of ‘Hungarians’, ‘Transylvanians’ (which are the Romanian-speaking inhabitants of the region), ‘Transylvanian Germans’, and ‘Szekely’ people.
  2. We have divided the Southern Slavic-speaking region into their dialectal families of Slovene, Croatian, Bosnian, and Serbian.
  3. The Southern Balkans are mostly divided among Bulgarian, Albanian, and Greek cultures.
  4. We’re also portraying plenty of other cultures, such as Dalmatians, Aromanians, Sclavenes, Arvanites, Cumans, Jasz, or Ashkenazi and Romanyoti Jews.

Religions:
Religion.png

This one is also interesting. Apart from the divide between Western Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, we have the Krstjani in Bosnia, Bogomils (the pink stripes both in Bosnia and Macedonia), and Paulicians in Thrace. The Jewish populations do not pass the threshold percentage to appear on the map, but there are plenty of communities across the region.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.png

The materials of the region. Something very noticeable is the richness of minerals, with plenty of Iron, Copper, Tin, Lead, Gold, and Silver. Specifically, Slovakia is very rich, and you definitely want more settlers to migrate to the region, and exploit its resources. The region is also very rich in agricultural resources, as you can see.

Markets:
Markets.png

The region is mostly divided among four markets: Venice, Pest, Ragusa and Constantinople.

Country and Location population:
Population 1.png

Population 2.png

Population 3.png

Population 4.png
Country and location population (which I’ve also sub-divided, and is under the Spoiler button).

And that’s all of today! I hope that you find the region interesting; we certainly think that it is. Next week we will go further south, and we will take a look at the Syrian Levant and Egypt. Cheers!
 
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@Pavía , will we have autonomously administered regions represented in this game?

The whole concept came to my mind reading the subject/Hungarian-Transylvania debate, but I think we would make use of it in many more cases.

In my perception, Transylvania was clearly not a vassal of Hungary, as its ruler the Voivode was neither a hereditary nor a locally elected lord, but appointed by the king - like a governor. However, we also can’t say that the region was a fully integral part of Hungary, not the same as for example Pest county.

For such states, I recommend the introduction of some kind of autonomy. I guess in the moment it’s just low control, but I think there could be a decision to make an autonomous area out of some locations/provinces thus making the low control permanent. It could have a permanent negative control gain modifier or a control cap, in hand of some other related maluses. It would of course make some positive effects as well. To revoke it, you would have to push it through the local estates, otherwise count with some unrest, rebellions.

I think this system could be made great use of by any country in the later, “enlightened” phase of the game, as well as the scripted feudal-type autonomies and freedoms in the early phase. I don’t know the English-Welsh history, but I know there was also a thread/debate regarding that, and maybe it could be used for that and lather the UK or French appanages to list some examples.
This, but not only for Transylvania, but also the Banates (such as the Banate of Macsó/Mačva, Slavonia, etc.), which were also royally appointed, but still autonomous governorates
 
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I think it would be better if there were horses in the location of Postojan instead of Wool because it is the home of the Lipizzaner horses, and in the Völkermarkt, it should be lead because the Mežica Lead and Zinc Mine was there at that time. Maribor should be a flatland since most of the location lies in the Pannonian Basin.
 
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No, they're not, Mani is the middle peninsula. The green thing on the western peninsula is Venetian.

That being said, Mani was basically an independent pirate republic at the time, I'd love to have it portrayed as thus.

I'm sure I've got a book about their history, will probably look up the 14th-15th century stuff during the weekend.
Yeah...I admit that I missed which "green" country we were talking about. Just looked at the map, saw the venetian greenish blue color contrasting the purple and locked to it instead of the obvious green tags near the Attica region. I guess I'm dumb sometimes :I
 
The good thing about the granularity of this game is that it has made the job easier for the future development of HoI5, CK4, and Victoria 4 as they can just use the same location names with some changes.
 
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That being said, Mani was basically an independent pirate republic at the time, I'd love to have it portrayed as thus.

I'm sure I've got a book about their history, will probably look up the 14th-15th century stuff during the weekend.

It's apparantly available online (with free login), pp 57-65 about the history, mainly the part below pp 59-60 about the time period in question
1720191206825.png

1720191236496.png
 
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Will there be dynamic names for locations? If so consider the following:
From Wikipedia - Kutmichevitsa was an administrative region of the Bulgarian Empire during 9th-11th cent., corresponding roughly with the northwestern part of the modern region of Macedonia and the southern part of Albania, broadly taken to be the area included in the triangle Saloniki-Skopje-Vlora.

I've added a map with the historic bulgarian names of different cities from the period when they were part of the medieval bulgarian empire. I've placed the map from wikipedia for comparison, but not all of the localization suggestions (in red) appear on it as I have added additional ones based on historic and modern bulgarian names for these cities.
 

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This, but not only for Transylvania, but also the Banates (such as the Banate of Macsó/Mačva, Slavonia, etc.), which were also royally appointed, but still autonomous governorates
At game start also the Székely, the Saxons (Transylvanian and Carpathian separately), and the Kuns
 
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A few things I noticed regarding locations in modern Serbia borders, from north to south:

1. Change Zenta to Subotica (don't know the Hungarian name), Subotica is more important and one of the bigger cities in Vojvodina
2. Can't read the location name above Kovin, west of Timisoara, what is it?
3. Kovin is even today a small town, not bigger than 10k inhabitants, better to change it to Pančevo (wiki link - Pančevo was first mentioned in 1153 and was described as an important mercantile place)
4. Debrc is a small village south of the Sava, only known because of a medieval church and nothing else. The location should either be changed to Novi Sad, or Srem (Syrmia, Szerem), as Srem is geographically right in between Sava and Danube
5. Instead of Jagodina (not sure if it is, but looks like it), place Kragujevac, it was a settlement already settled by the end of 12th century
6. Ravno - first time hearing of this, Zaječar much better suited, 3 Roman emperors were born there
7. Trgovište - not to be confused with Romanian Targoviste, Ras or Raška would be much much better
8. Peč should be Peć
9. Glubočica can be Leskovac instead, Leskovac is just center of the area. If not, then Dubočica is most commonly used

Provinces:

1. Donji-Kraji sounds very unnatural, maybe just Krajina?
2. Usora and Soli - Slavonija?

4. As per the current locations - Syrmia - existing + Debrc, Mačva - Krupanj, Valjevo, Gradac, Belgrad, Šumadija - Smederevo, Rudnik, Jagodina, Žiča, Braničevo - existing + Stalać, Niš - existing + Kruševac, Toplica can be scrapped
5. Podrinje can be renamed to Hercegovina
6. Serbian / Slavic version of Illyria is Ilirija
The stuff that I marked in orange I completely disagree with.

1. Donji Kraji was the name of that province for over 600 years, and was used in titulage as "Lord of Donji Kraji" by the King of Bosnia as well as Grand Dukes for centures even after the Ottoman conquest during the Hungarian/Croatian rule over Donji Kraji.

2. Usora and Soli is also a historicaly 100% accurate term for the region, Slavonija is not even remotely accurate as Slavonia is the region in Croatia not in Bosnia. Usora and Soli is refered to as Posavina today due to being close to the Sava river. Soli literaly means salt as there is a large salt mine in the region that is being mined even to this day, it was renamed to Tuzla after the Ottoman conquest which also means salt and is named that today as well. Usora and Soli were both Duchies and at one point even elevated to Kingdom by the Hungarian King.

5. Podrinje should not be renamed Hercegovina, it has nothing to do with Hercegovina. Hum is Hercegovina, though it would get that name during the mid 1400s and not earlier than that, until then it was called either Hum or Zahumlje, so that is also correctly named.


Since these were related to Bosnian provinces I had to correct, as for Serbia I don't know much about the localisation there so I will leave to people more familiar with Serbia to correct or agree with the stuff you mentioned.
 
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Excellent work in the balkans, really.... but... Where is my gold mine in Kosovo that I love in EU4? At this time, did Athens have a larger population than Constantinople? Thessaloniki was also important, they produced clothing...in Morea the courts were known for their chivalry at the time...will this be reflected in the game? Where is the purple dye extracted from the gill glands of the murex snail Bolinus brandaris that the Byzantines loved so much represented on the map?
 
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On Moldavia and Wallachia:

Culture:
Why is Romanian culture called Wallachian? Transylvanian is it's own culture for some reason but Moldavian doesn't exist?
It should either be Moldavian, Wallachian and Transylvanian. Or since Aromanian exists it should just be called Romanian (Transylvanians, Wallachians and Moldavians that speak Romanian)

Also as it stands in 1337 in the Moldavia region there should probably be a lot more Tatars to the east of the Prut river and Bulgarians in Southern Bessarabia.

Locations:
Campulung Moldovenesc is the name of a city, the original name was Campulung and the Moldovenesc part was added during the communist period.
That Location was called Ocolul Campulungului during the middle ages

(The first written mention of the village of Câmpulung Moldovenesc dates back to April 14, 1411. At that time, the ruling prince of Moldavia was Alexandru cel Bun. Dimitrie Cantemir, in his well-known work Descriptio Moldaviae, mentions Ocolul Câmpulung, an autonomous region in northern Moldavia that has its own rules and leaders. This region consisted of 15 villages. During the late Middle Ages, as the medieval town of Suceava and other neighbouring towns in the region of Moldavia, Câmpulung Moldovenesc operated under the Magdeburg law (German: Das Mageburger Recht).[3])

Orasul de Floci should probably be called Targul de Floci since it translates to "The Wool Market"
Using the Romanian Wiki for this one: https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Târgu_de_Floci

Transylvania should probably have mostly Hungarian names if the land if owned by the Kingdom of Hungary, not sure why there's random modern Romanian names there.

Dynasty:
Not sure why it's Basarabs when it should probably Basarab

Goods:
The hills and mountainous regions in Moldavia should probably have a mix of lumber and wool/livestock...
Hungary and Transylvania should probably have more wine provinces than they currently have
Tulcea should have fish, not wool.

I hope other people will point out more thigs I've missed.
 
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Will there be dynamic names for locations? If so consider the following:
From Wikipedia - Kutmichevitsa was an administrative region of the Bulgarian Empire during 9th-11th cent., corresponding roughly with the northwestern part of the modern region of Macedonia and the southern part of Albania, broadly taken to be the area included in the triangle Saloniki-Skopje-Vlora.

I've added a map with the historic bulgarian names of different cities from the period when they were part of the medieval bulgarian empire. I've placed the map from wikipedia for comparison, but not all of the localization suggestions (in red) appear on it as I have added additional ones based on historic and modern bulgarian names for these cities.
I can't seem to add links since the website thinks its spam just type kutmichevitsa wikipedia for the source of the map I used
 
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Next week we will go further south, and we will take a look at the Syrian Levant and Egypt.
Finally, somewhere outside Europe again. (after Anatolia)
 
Baia de ArieșAranyosbánya
Baia MareNagybánya
Banská BystricaBesztercebánya
BästertsBeszterce
BeiușBelényes
BelgradNándorfehérvár
BelmuraMuraszombat
BeregovoBeregszász
BjelovarBelovár
ČakovecCsáktornya
CaransebeșKaránsebes
CuheaIzakonyha
DebrcDebrec/Deberceg (it's made up, because the hungarian name is also Debrecen)
DejDés
FăgărașFogaras
Gradiški BrodGradiska
GyörGyőr
HärmenschtatNagyszeben
HategHátszeg
HlohovecGalgóc
HolíčHolics/Fehéregyház
HumennéHomonna
IlakÚjlak
Jakeb-SzállásaJakabszállás
KaraševoKrassóvár
KoprivnicaKapronca
KorosbanyaKörösbánya
KovinKevevára
KruhnenBrassó
LeibitzLeibic
LevočaLőcse
Liptovský MikulášLiptószentmiklós
LugojLugos
MedweschMedgyes
MelnbachSzászsebes
MyhaldMiháld
NagyszölösNagyszőlős
Oravský PodzámokÁrvaváralja
PakracPakrác
PetrinjaPetrinya
PožegaPozsega
PrešovEperjes
PreßburgPozsony
RegenSzászrégen
Rimavská SobotaRimaszombat
SajógömörGömör
SchäsbrichSegesvár
SlunjSzluin
Sremska MitrovicaSzávaszentdemeter
TrenčínTrencsén
Turčiansky Svätý MartinTurócszentmárton
UžhorodUngvár
VaraždinVarasd
ViroviticaVerőce
VukovarValkóvár
YasineKörösmező
ZagrebZágráb
ZalăuZilah
 
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There were also small groups of German miners in Kosovo and Bulgaria. Not many, but they greatly boosted the local economies.
There are also Transylvanian Germans in Srebrenica, Budimlja, Mitrovica, and Novo Brdo.
 
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