Tinto Maps Special Edition - 6th of January 2025 - The World

[WorrapsnehtroN2707]

Development in East Anglia area looks too low. There are about 1.2M people in the area.

 

[Kvesir]

If the devs end up removing the terrain testing rectangle I will personally make a mod that restores it to its full glory

 

[GeneralNoob]

Quoted from the tinto talks on dev:

"in Project Caesar development represents how cultivated the land is, and how much it is used by the pops living there. The higher the development, the more people can live there, and the more it can be exploited."

I am well aware what they wrote, but that doesnt explain anything.

What is "how cultivated the land is" and how does that translate to urban centres or major agrarian places being less developed than a literal desert or the middle of the forest/junggle?

Their own explanation is a contradiction to their own map.

So it is how much of the land is used for agriculture. It is not wealth, nor population, nor technically urbanization nor infrastructure.

So why is the area around the Gobi desert green/yellow? What agriculture do you have there? What agriculture do you have on the alpine mountains? What agriculture do you have in the city of Budapest?

You really think people learned agriculture from the Europeans in pre-colonial americans?

 

[zeruosi]

If the devs end up removing the terrain testing rectangle I will personally make a mod that restores it to its full glory

I hope you can name it Mu Continent

 

[nyetflix2]

I am well aware what they wrote, but that doesnt explain anything.

What is "how cultivated the land is" and how does that translate to urban centres or major agrarian places being less developed than a literal desert or the middle of the forest/junggle?

Their own explanation is a contradiction to their own map.


So why is the area around the Gobi desert green/yellow? What agriculture do you have there? What agriculture do you have on the alpine mountains? What agriculture do you have in the city of Budapest?

You really think people learned agriculture from the Europeans in pre-colonial americans?

I agree lol

 

[TheBoozehammer]

Looking at the government map, I am struck by how few tribal governments there are. What is your criteria for making a government a tribe vs a monarchy or SoP? Have you considered adding more tribes to the Americas, South/Southeast Asia, Africa, or other places?

 

[Liam1234]

I worry this'll nerf the heck out of Scotland. Now Scotland was and is very rural, but I believe today it has around a third-a quarter the population of England, don't know if that's quite the same as in the 1300's. But Scotland throughout the history of the British Isles was never successfully subjugated by force, I believe at game start you are modeling the Scottish War of Independence, but even that was more the result of a marriage alliance. And when Scotland finally did come under English rule it was due to a personal union Scotland had led, and then a giant debt crisis that caused the Act of Union to be signed. Anyway- point being I want to be sure that Scotland is very hard for an English player to conquer, and that it's not impossible for Scotland to not get immediately eaten every game.

Scotland has a tenth of the population of England today, which is a similar proportion to what was shown in the Britain Tinto Maps.

 

[karasis65]

I remember Dev said they would give a second look for development, especially for china. Is it the new version in the pictures?

Also Levant seems to have no ports. I'm no expert on that but it feels like there should be some

 

[Pls fix HRE]

Is this the current state of the map or did you choose something from November/December and used that as a basis for the screenshot.

 

[LinovaA]

Not sure if this is the right place to put this, but I have the teeny tiniest suggestion from when I was looking at Atlantic Canada.

The location of Saint John should probably be/have a natural harbour. Lots of shipbuilding came outta there and with a decent history of exported timber/lumber/etc.

 

[Urdnot_scott]

I worry this'll nerf the heck out of Scotland. Now Scotland was and is very rural, but I believe today it has around a third-a quarter the population of England, don't know if that's quite the same as in the 1300's. But Scotland throughout the history of the British Isles was never successfully subjugated by force, I believe at game start you are modeling the Scottish War of Independence, but even that was more the result of a marriage alliance. And when Scotland finally did come under English rule it was due to a personal union Scotland had led, and then a giant debt crisis that caused the Act of Union to be signed. Anyway- point being I want to be sure that Scotland is very hard for an English player to conquer, and that it's not impossible for Scotland to not get immediately eaten every game.

Scotland is like a tenth of the population of England - there are more people in London alone than in Scotland.

 

[Bluehunter]

Wasn't Karlskrona an important harbour for Sweden? I would give that place a bit of a natural harbor since it's protected by islands and such

 

[Pondar]

Why is the court language not Chinese in Korea and Vietnam?

 

[Rhaegar1]

I'm still not sure about the development situation in Greece and Anatolia. I can totally see why Europe itself is less developed then Large parts of India and China. At this day and age that seems pretty reasonable. For the heartland of the former Byzantine empire which in a very short period will form the heartland of the mighty Ottomans I just feel there's to little development spread around to really make that logical. Western Europes ascension will take a while so it stands to reason that their development is still lacking but from this starting point it seems weird that the Ottomans will be able to turn into the major power in the region (or even world) in a century or so.

 

[Ekyman]

It is actually realistic, though? Mayan artifacts are found across the East Coast all the time that got traded there... Am I incorrect about this?

And there are Islamic artifacts in Scandinavia, it doesn't mean they were in the same market in game mechanic terms.

That said it's just a function of distance by sea being way cheaper than distance through unowned locations and sea locations being generally bigger. In an ideal world they'd probably be in the Cahokia market but since there aren't any playable countries on the east coast right now it probably doesn't really matter.

 

[Zerodv]

I'm still not sure about the development situation in Greece and Anatolia. I can totally see why Europe itself is less developed then Large parts of India and China. At this day and age that seems pretty reasonable. For the heartland of the former Byzantine empire which in a very short period will form the heartland of the mighty Ottomans I just feel there's to little development spread around to really make that logical. Western Europes ascension will take a while so it stands to reason that their development is still lacking but from this starting point it seems weird that the Ottomans will be able to turn into the major power in the region (or even world) in a century or so.

Anatolia has been the battleground between Greeks, Crusaders, Armenian, Arabs and Turks for centuries by this point and one sizeable wave of conquest just ended

 

[ArVass]

Not sure I agree about the language part, at least on the basis of "mutually intelligible in 1337". Proto-Polynesian seems to have been spoken around 1000 BCE.

A three-way split into Tongan, Samoan and East Polynesian could make sense, as well as a two-way one to Tongan and Nuclear Polynesian; however, there still is a significant level of mutual intelligibility between these branches. The Nuclear Polynesians however diverged much later.

Either way, I don't think the way Māori, Hawaiian, Tahitian, Rapa Nui and the other Eastern Polynesians are different languages AND different religions makes sense at all.

 

[Atromb]

Two things, why is Cádiz not a good natural harbour?
2- I see Granada's borders haven't change, I made a post in the Iberia feedback about how the current borders aren't accurate for 1337, are Granada's borders final?

 

[EuropeChef]

They weren't created fairly recently, they were organically built up by literate people during the early modern period. But what do you think happened when a Lombard went to Tuscany? Did he had to speak in Latin? Or have to formally learn Tuscan? The reality is that these languages are a construct to both represent the fact these languages are related and fairly intelligible and also the fact that the literate classes of these regions organically agreed upon one standard without political unity, which has to account for something even if it's anacronistically put back in time.

The Standard Italian language which it looks like the map is referencing was only spoken by 2.5% of the population in 1861. And with fairly recently I meant around the unification periods. So I don't think the statement that it was fairly recently created is entirely incorrect. But I'm not sure about Italian or Italian mutual intelligibility.

With the Germanic region I am fairly confident in saying that a random person/peasant from Emmen would not be able to communicate with someone from Vienna. So if they wanted to move to Vienna they would have to learn a new language/way of speech. Now I'm not saying that it certainly means that these 2 are different languages as languages and dialects are a subject of debate and there was a dialect continuum.
The main point I was making is that using modern standardized language names makes it seem like those people back in the day were speaking modern standard Italian or German. I am just afraid that people do not understand that these people back in the day were not speaking that, sorta absorbing those histories and languages into 1 German or Italian blob. So again in my eyes it would be a lot better to use more neutral terms, protecting the people from the trap that its all connected to the modern states/languages.

Another example of the unfair/weird way Paradox has done this is the "Scandinavian" language. It would be the same as if they went to the map and renamed it Swedish or Danish. It would hand pick 1 descendant language of that and call all previous versions of that language by the modern hand picked name. It just does not make sense. But they did do it the correct way in my eyes, they used a neutral term for it, not going back and renaming it after Swedish or Danish but choosing a term that all modern Scandinavian peoples can agree upon as it is not picking favorites. So why can't Paradox do the same with the Germanic or Italian regions?

 

[Atromb]

Also: Portugal shouldn't be a single area. You should at least split it in half.