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Tinto Talks #10 - 1st of May 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the final of four on the economy system for our secret game with the code name “Project Caesar”.

Today we will talk about all the things related to trade, including markets, merchants and trades. This talk is heavy on tooltip screenshots, and a lot of concepts to digest, so I recommend checking it through multiple times.

Markets
Let's start with the markets themselves. These are dynamic and will change through the playthrough, as countries can create new markets and disband their old if they so desire.

Each market has a center in a location, and the owner of that location is in control over that market.

Every location and coastal seazone will belong to the most fitting market, which depends on the market attraction of the market, the distance between the location and the market center, diplomatic factors, and more.

IND8u3KEluhwiu85x22WKoYosHcca0_GsOSQ4X3fkAUkxE5HJCluAOPf7Ndp1AOWs3SVq7COQGwn1pqsALYsFUh-JlKW2BQotToqtBQxdVQ_8qTRUrqrkEuG-tpOFKXY3jY2HcqGPDmkFV9dvc6vECg

The Riga market has control over much of the Baltic region in the start..

A market has merchants, who have a power depending on buildings and maritime presence in the market, and a merchant capacity which depends on the infrastructure for trade that country has in that market. The Merchant Power impacts in which order exports from a market are executed, as there is not an endless supply of goods in a market. The Merchant Capacity impacts how much goods the merchants can ship.

DmG80vDbiHg8Lz7za7ZygAL03fx0xES5mMUIPqvzcxicW20awRNeO77099TOeRNkoYxwYrsaiRThpDn_XPNE_mq3uP_Zz8YA5JbLICIemjYwsGEPRf3de9P8CXNI1JGpztSAT1PAPYjSUzinUKaVEQQ

This is the source of the Hanseatic League’s merchant capacity in Riga.



As you can see in the market screenshot, every good has a local price, and a supply vs demand value as well, let's take a look at the beer price in the next tooltip.

J88wyLaCAImVXdvbW7e4YTks4qTitOU--vFt8_SKhlFVS3LRU8H1uSurnqo-L28kbzZXSFTBoz23S9TT49UkpqMVps6KBNUSfw1TCRW2Wh8UIurvvmkxz0ufWPA3ZRugdLJtv2cRUSbrmOkyJ2NdojE

Cheap beer, must be paradise…

Prices change every month towards the Target Price, which depends on the supply and demand of the goods in the market, and the current price stability. Price stability can change through the ages as well.

Supply & Demand
The supply of each good in a market depends on several factors.
  • The output from RGO’s
  • The output from buildings
  • Base Production
  • Burgher Trades

So what is ‘Base Production’? Some goods like clay, lumber, sand and stone are produced in every market, without the need for specific RGO’s, even if an RGO with that raw material can produce much more, and there are buildings that can be built to provide these as well.

Also, your burghers will trade on their own, if they have the capacity for it. They will attempt to address needs within the market, and can trade in a slightly shorter range, thus enriching their estate. There are laws and privileges that impact them, like the “Trade Monopolies” estate privilege that the Hanseatic League has granted in the earlier screenshot, which reduces their own merchant capacity by 25% to increase the capacity of the burghers by 100%

So what about demand? This is primarily from the maintenance, input, and construction of buildings, recruiting and maintaining armies and navies, and the demands of the population, but there are more sources as well.

Of course, trades themselves impact supply and demand as well.

Trade
You can use your merchant capacity in a market to either export a good from that market, or import a good from another market. Of course that market needs to be within your trade range, which is not world-spanning in 1337.

A trade is a variable amount of goods shipped from one market to another market, purchasing it for the local price in the exporting market. The longer the distance between the markets, the more capacity each good will require to ship, and higher the maintenance costs will be.

Trades have an impact on the last land location they are in before leaving the market, and the first one they enter in the importing market, giving boosts in development to them over time. A trade always has to trace a path on the map.

N_IzZLynmh-xb_S63dKE5-bOopZ1LQo18PP8xrozl4i5Dpt78lHd2Z0gmu1gKrXelHOvD0weruSAlJYpUfks5RKKNw-U3J-mxFMV1XX88ULIXpfadMP6VBcm3FU70pb9pbyNOCxC_ewWSFWkOQcm3As

Our merchant power makes us get the amount of goods we want in Riga.

There are also the Sound Tolls, if you pass through Öresund or the Bosphorus to consider.

Diplomacy and Trade
There are many diplomatic factors that impact the trade and market mechanics of Project Caesar.

First of all, you can “Deny Market Access” to a nation owning a market, which will reduce the attraction of their markets on your locations, but also make anyone with merchants in those markets upset with you.

You can also request and/or offer market access preference making it likelier for a country’s locations to belong in a certain market.

If you dislike paying Sound Tolls, you can always try to ask for exemption for it through diplomacy with the country controlling the strait.

Some countries have isolated themselves completely, so you need to negotiate a specific exception to allow you to export or import from their markets.

There is also the possibility to embargo a country, which would block the merchants from that country to trade in your markets, and also to not be allowed to move through your country. Of course, this a legit casus belli, so use with care.

Other aspects to Trade
Each market can have specific goods banned for export or import, with one common example being that muslim markets will ban import and export of wine, beer and liquor.

We mentioned in an earlier Tinto Talks that Markets will have stockpiles, so that surplus can be stored for a rainy day. There are buildings that will increase the amount that can be stored.

There is also food in the markets, with prices adapting to the supply and demand of food as well.

ZZti8FBtbpZfZ0U5VjmqbP2fguK-coTm8FO0nn0aMPPpb0wJThjX2_XmvKwD-rJ4ru22FZWqQgQ55P1QfzDdqjx5C_mknn5KpbaG_9TLc3RRBXLDsVz9Q6oUe3zZNSNmbb2OI6gk3JlumV6vPoukAWE

Västra Götaland är Sveriges Kornbod!

There are also automation options where you can assign trading completely to the AI. You can also lock some trades so that the AI will not interfere with them.

Stay tuned, next week we’ll be talking about mercenaries, levies and regulars!
 
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Given that there is a trade range, does that mean that some goods, like silk, will be moving from market to market to get to end purchasers? If markets 'in between' are disrupted, or trade links interrupted, will good 'try to find' alternate routes to end markets?

Each trade is between 2 markets, on a path.
 
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@Johan

Will the diplomacy option "Sound Tolls Exception" be available in peace deals for a certain period of time?

Also, if I am the Ottomans and control the Bosphorus, can I increase / decrease Sound Tolls overall? For certain goods?
 
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If you own a province can you manually transfer the market that it is in or does that all happen dynamically? For example as Austria could you manually make all your provinces in the same market so that your homeland isn't split between markets? Or could you just create your own market in say Vienna, and what would be the process to do that?
 
OMG, Zeeland is indeed islands. You made my day, sir
 

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yes, you can manually move your market to another location you own inside that market. That will impact what locations will belong to it.. so if you move from Lübeck to Hamburg, you are likely to get reduced access in Norway and Sweden, but MAY get a bit further into the Low lands..
But what about if Lübeck is owned by the Hansa and Hamburg is for example an independent Fee City (different tag). Is there any way to compete with Lübeck other than simply starting your own separate market or conquering Lübeck?

I'm trying to imagine whether a commercial league will have depth, with multiple smaller tags wanting to be a trade leader in an area (Genoa, Pisa, Florence... in a region, Venice, Ragusa, Trieste... in other, Hamburg, Lubeck, Rostock... in other, Pskov, Novgorod and Ingria in other and so on) or there will a preferred path of "always create your own market as soon as you can".

I guess that splitting an area between too many markets will dilute the resource access but it feels like having competition between maritime republics would require too much military conquest if you need to control the existing market to move or disband it. For example, in the map you shared a trade oriented Florence will need to create their own market (losing access to more Genoa oriented locations) or military conquer Genoa to become the new trade center for nortwestern Italy. It kinda feels that if you have a lot of burguers and a lot of trade-related buildings there should be an alternate way to get the market seat transferred by outcompiting the genoese.
 
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But could Ösel also found their own tiny market if they wanted? And presumably cut themselves off from almost everything they don't produce themselves?

yes they could, and then they'd realise it was the worst investment of gold ever..
 
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yes ofc.. you can have as many markets as you want.

its usually beneficial to have a significantly sized one that provides you with enough of the resources you need so you only need to import a percentage of what you lack.
If England establish colonies on the American East coast, would these be part of the London market or would they form their own market?
 
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but food supply and trading seems to be its own mechanic distinct from markets
Provincial food supply is linked to markets. If on a provincial level you have a food surplus, it gets stored in the market, and if you have a lack of food, you try to buy it from the market the province belongs to.
 
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Is Aquitaine its own polity? It has a different flag than England, at least. Maybe it's portrayed as a vassal.
 
Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the final of four on the economy system for our secret game with the code name “Project Caesar”.

Today we will talk about all the things related to trade, including markets, merchants and trades. This talk is heavy on tooltip screenshots, and a lot of concepts to digest, so I recommend checking it through multiple times.

Markets
Let's start with the markets themselves. These are dynamic and will change through the playthrough, as countries can create new markets and disband their old if they so desire.

Each market has a center in a location, and the owner of that location is in control over that market.

Every location and coastal seazone will belong to the most fitting market, which depends on the market attraction of the market, the distance between the location and the market center, diplomatic factors, and more.

IND8u3KEluhwiu85x22WKoYosHcca0_GsOSQ4X3fkAUkxE5HJCluAOPf7Ndp1AOWs3SVq7COQGwn1pqsALYsFUh-JlKW2BQotToqtBQxdVQ_8qTRUrqrkEuG-tpOFKXY3jY2HcqGPDmkFV9dvc6vECg

The Riga market has control over much of the Baltic region in the start..

A market has merchants, who have a power depending on buildings and maritime presence in the market, and a merchant capacity which depends on the infrastructure for trade that country has in that market. The Merchant Power impacts in which order exports from a market are executed, as there is not an endless supply of goods in a market. The Merchant Capacity impacts how much goods the merchants can ship.

DmG80vDbiHg8Lz7za7ZygAL03fx0xES5mMUIPqvzcxicW20awRNeO77099TOeRNkoYxwYrsaiRThpDn_XPNE_mq3uP_Zz8YA5JbLICIemjYwsGEPRf3de9P8CXNI1JGpztSAT1PAPYjSUzinUKaVEQQ

This is the source of the Hanseatic League’s merchant capacity in Riga.



As you can see in the market screenshot, every good has a local price, and a supply vs demand value as well, let's take a look at the beer price in the next tooltip.

J88wyLaCAImVXdvbW7e4YTks4qTitOU--vFt8_SKhlFVS3LRU8H1uSurnqo-L28kbzZXSFTBoz23S9TT49UkpqMVps6KBNUSfw1TCRW2Wh8UIurvvmkxz0ufWPA3ZRugdLJtv2cRUSbrmOkyJ2NdojE

Cheap beer, must be paradise…

Prices change every month towards the Target Price, which depends on the supply and demand of the goods in the market, and the current price stability. Price stability can change through the ages as well.

Supply & Demand
The supply of each good in a market depends on several factors.
  • The output from RGO’s
  • The output from buildings
  • Base Production
  • Burgher Trades

So what is ‘Base Production’? Some goods like clay, lumber, sand and stone are produced in every market, without the need for specific RGO’s, even if an RGO with that raw material can produce much more, and there are buildings that can be built to provide these as well.

Also, your burghers will trade on their own, if they have the capacity for it. They will attempt to address needs within the market, and can trade in a slightly shorter range, thus enriching their estate. There are laws and privileges that impact them, like the “Trade Monopolies” estate privilege that the Hanseatic League has granted in the earlier screenshot, which reduces their own merchant capacity by 25% to increase the capacity of the burghers by 100%

So what about demand? This is primarily from the maintenance, input, and construction of buildings, recruiting and maintaining armies and navies, and the demands of the population, but there are more sources as well.

Of course, trades themselves impact supply and demand as well.

Trade
You can use your merchant capacity in a market to either export a good from that market, or import a good from another market. Of course that market needs to be within your trade range, which is not world-spanning in 1337.

A trade is a variable amount of goods shipped from one market to another market, purchasing it for the local price in the exporting market. The longer the distance between the markets, the more capacity each good will require to ship, and higher the maintenance costs will be.

Trades have an impact on the last land location they are in before leaving the market, and the first one they enter in the importing market, giving boosts in development to them over time. A trade always has to trace a path on the map.

N_IzZLynmh-xb_S63dKE5-bOopZ1LQo18PP8xrozl4i5Dpt78lHd2Z0gmu1gKrXelHOvD0weruSAlJYpUfks5RKKNw-U3J-mxFMV1XX88ULIXpfadMP6VBcm3FU70pb9pbyNOCxC_ewWSFWkOQcm3As

Our merchant power makes us get the amount of goods we want in Riga.

There are also the Sound Tolls, if you pass through Öresund or the Bosphorus to consider.

Diplomacy and Trade
There are many diplomatic factors that impact the trade and market mechanics of Project Caesar.

First of all, you can “Deny Market Access” to a nation owning a market, which will reduce the attraction of their markets on your locations, but also make anyone with merchants in those markets upset with you.

You can also request and/or offer market access preference making it likelier for a country’s locations to belong in a certain market.

If you dislike paying Sound Tolls, you can always try to ask for exemption for it through diplomacy with the country controlling the strait.

Some countries have isolated themselves completely, so you need to negotiate a specific exception to allow you to export or import from their markets.

There is also the possibility to embargo a country, which would block the merchants from that country to trade in your markets, and also to not be allowed to move through your country. Of course, this a legit casus belli, so use with care.

Other aspects to Trade
Each market can have specific goods banned for export or import, with one common example being that muslim markets will ban import and export of wine, beer and liquor.

We mentioned in an earlier Tinto Talks that Markets will have stockpiles, so that surplus can be stored for a rainy day. There are buildings that will increase the amount that can be stored.

There is also food in the markets, with prices adapting to the supply and demand of food as well.

ZZti8FBtbpZfZ0U5VjmqbP2fguK-coTm8FO0nn0aMPPpb0wJThjX2_XmvKwD-rJ4ru22FZWqQgQ55P1QfzDdqjx5C_mknn5KpbaG_9TLc3RRBXLDsVz9Q6oUe3zZNSNmbb2OI6gk3JlumV6vPoukAWE

Västra Götaland är Sveriges Kornbod!

There are also automation options where you can assign trading completely to the AI. You can also lock some trades so that the AI will not interfere with them.

Stay tuned, next week we’ll be talking about mercenaries, levies and regulars!
We see that there's a civil war in Scotland? As these games tend to focus on the player being the 'state' does that mean we can allow the rival faction in a civil war to win and we can choose to swap to them? Or does it end our game?
 
Do you manually draw a custom path on the map when creating a trade?

If so, is there anything stopping you from making an absurd path such as circling around Australia multiple times?
 
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Somewhat disappointed, although understandable, that there isn’t a transport cost. It would’ve been a good way to make invasions harder since you need to move tons of goods deep into enemy territory.

Also, this probably should’ve been asked in a previous tinto talk, but how will the game live up to its name when India and China each have more people than Europe?

Edit: I got the impression that each country will have a capped merchant capacity with a negligible maintenance since the cost was only .07 from Riga to London which is a fair distance. Is this correct, or will the maintenance get more significant with longer or inland routes?
 
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We see that there's a civil war in Scotland? As these games tend to focus on the player being the 'state' does that mean we can allow the rival faction in a civil war to win and we can choose to swap to them? Or does it end our game?
If a civil war happens in your country you'll probably have the choice to either stay who you are or switch to the rebels.
 
Do you manually draw a custom path on the map when creating a trade?

If so, is there anything stopping you from making an absurd path such as circling around Australia multiple times?
Surely the only thing you control is the initial location, and then the map adjusts according to control and other modifiers. I kind of remember it looking that way in EU3.
 
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Ships and/or Caravans, ie the merchant capacity you built.

You need to build up infrastructure to get that in a market.
So I do not need to control the other markets the good theoretically moves through? Would wars etc in markets my goods move through impact my trade? Also do I need to pay taxes on markets I move through that I do not control.

Lastly will trade routes exist, like shipping lanes etc.
 
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