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Tinto Talks #10 - 1st of May 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the final of four on the economy system for our secret game with the code name “Project Caesar”.

Today we will talk about all the things related to trade, including markets, merchants and trades. This talk is heavy on tooltip screenshots, and a lot of concepts to digest, so I recommend checking it through multiple times.

Markets
Let's start with the markets themselves. These are dynamic and will change through the playthrough, as countries can create new markets and disband their old if they so desire.

Each market has a center in a location, and the owner of that location is in control over that market.

Every location and coastal seazone will belong to the most fitting market, which depends on the market attraction of the market, the distance between the location and the market center, diplomatic factors, and more.

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The Riga market has control over much of the Baltic region in the start..

A market has merchants, who have a power depending on buildings and maritime presence in the market, and a merchant capacity which depends on the infrastructure for trade that country has in that market. The Merchant Power impacts in which order exports from a market are executed, as there is not an endless supply of goods in a market. The Merchant Capacity impacts how much goods the merchants can ship.

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This is the source of the Hanseatic League’s merchant capacity in Riga.



As you can see in the market screenshot, every good has a local price, and a supply vs demand value as well, let's take a look at the beer price in the next tooltip.

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Cheap beer, must be paradise…

Prices change every month towards the Target Price, which depends on the supply and demand of the goods in the market, and the current price stability. Price stability can change through the ages as well.

Supply & Demand
The supply of each good in a market depends on several factors.
  • The output from RGO’s
  • The output from buildings
  • Base Production
  • Burgher Trades

So what is ‘Base Production’? Some goods like clay, lumber, sand and stone are produced in every market, without the need for specific RGO’s, even if an RGO with that raw material can produce much more, and there are buildings that can be built to provide these as well.

Also, your burghers will trade on their own, if they have the capacity for it. They will attempt to address needs within the market, and can trade in a slightly shorter range, thus enriching their estate. There are laws and privileges that impact them, like the “Trade Monopolies” estate privilege that the Hanseatic League has granted in the earlier screenshot, which reduces their own merchant capacity by 25% to increase the capacity of the burghers by 100%

So what about demand? This is primarily from the maintenance, input, and construction of buildings, recruiting and maintaining armies and navies, and the demands of the population, but there are more sources as well.

Of course, trades themselves impact supply and demand as well.

Trade
You can use your merchant capacity in a market to either export a good from that market, or import a good from another market. Of course that market needs to be within your trade range, which is not world-spanning in 1337.

A trade is a variable amount of goods shipped from one market to another market, purchasing it for the local price in the exporting market. The longer the distance between the markets, the more capacity each good will require to ship, and higher the maintenance costs will be.

Trades have an impact on the last land location they are in before leaving the market, and the first one they enter in the importing market, giving boosts in development to them over time. A trade always has to trace a path on the map.

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Our merchant power makes us get the amount of goods we want in Riga.

There are also the Sound Tolls, if you pass through Öresund or the Bosphorus to consider.

Diplomacy and Trade
There are many diplomatic factors that impact the trade and market mechanics of Project Caesar.

First of all, you can “Deny Market Access” to a nation owning a market, which will reduce the attraction of their markets on your locations, but also make anyone with merchants in those markets upset with you.

You can also request and/or offer market access preference making it likelier for a country’s locations to belong in a certain market.

If you dislike paying Sound Tolls, you can always try to ask for exemption for it through diplomacy with the country controlling the strait.

Some countries have isolated themselves completely, so you need to negotiate a specific exception to allow you to export or import from their markets.

There is also the possibility to embargo a country, which would block the merchants from that country to trade in your markets, and also to not be allowed to move through your country. Of course, this a legit casus belli, so use with care.

Other aspects to Trade
Each market can have specific goods banned for export or import, with one common example being that muslim markets will ban import and export of wine, beer and liquor.

We mentioned in an earlier Tinto Talks that Markets will have stockpiles, so that surplus can be stored for a rainy day. There are buildings that will increase the amount that can be stored.

There is also food in the markets, with prices adapting to the supply and demand of food as well.

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Västra Götaland är Sveriges Kornbod!

There are also automation options where you can assign trading completely to the AI. You can also lock some trades so that the AI will not interfere with them.

Stay tuned, next week we’ll be talking about mercenaries, levies and regulars!
 
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"Of course that market needs to be within your trade range, which is not world-spanning in 1337."

Portugal had a presence in the flanders market since the late 14th century.

I assume that the range won't be locked to your regional neighbours if you have a coastal nation?
 
By the late game would having less or one major market in an area be more feasible to do or will it still be necessary to partition the markets somewhat?
 
Unless you make your country into a trader nation, you don't need to care all that much about trade.

Some players run with fully automated trade.
Some do depending on country and situation, as you can automate most and just lock certain specific trades to not be ai controlled.
Some love the manual micromanaging.
The fact the AI can do it for me makes me love this system it makes it really feel as an option of how much I want to engage which a deep system like this really meeds
 
yes it does
In that case, why do certain parts of England that are equidistant from London have different accessibility, is this due to the existence of large Towns/Cities like Norwich and Edinburgh, buildings, roads, or terrain? It would be great if you could give us a couple of case study of how the accessibility works for different provinces to allow us to understand this a bit better.
 
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Also will rice be separate from sturdy grain?

In theory beer shouldn’t be able to travel far as it wasn’t until the adding of extra hops for the EIC (the IPA) that long voyages for beer became feasible. Maybe it could be attached to a technology level?
 
How can new markets be established is it just a decision? Also what decides which city is my market capital, since we can have multiple markets in a nation I assume it isn't always our political center.
 
We're going absolutely nuts with the economic engine here. First comment on the map of Europe, Wow that HRE, Italy, Russia and France! Looks like Krakow is eating some of the Praha market, I'm sure more could be said on this, but want to keep my analysis a little short
Markets
...
So so so so happy to see dynamic market. I wonder what the advantages of having multiple markets in a country are. Seems like something you can create and destroy as a player as described. But what happens if I just try to take every market center and nothing else, how easily would it be to set up a rival market?

Merchant power and capacity is a little confusing to me. It seems like power defines a rank ordering, capacity how much you can take from a market. So if you are the most powerful merchant in the node, and have enough capacity to absorb all of the goods in a market nobody else will get anything. The bonuses described for Hansa are impressive, trading nations could be *strong* in this game, and I sense some fun ways to exploit markets. I suspect the Hanseatic league is a Trade League led by Lubeck, hence the flag. The Kontor might be a unique building to them.
Supply & Demand
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Surprised the engine can handle a supply/demand system for 70+ items. Really hope this doesn't slow down the game too much, well known that Victoria 2 had issues keeping the economic gears spinning. Victoria 3 slows down a lot towards end game too. Burghers addressing trade within the market is interesting. Would like to know more. How does distance from a market center impact price, if at all?
Trade
...
So a "trade" is something you can set up yourself. I'm a little confused if it's on a per-good basis. You say variable amount of goods, but the image shows trade just for Tar. This also confirms dynamic trade routes, very happy to see. You mention "tracing a path on the map" is that something you set up yourself as a player? can you choose to bypass certain trade nodes? Can an army intercept trade?
Diplomacy and Trade
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All this is glorious. Play as an isolated Japan and let trade happen through a single country through a single port. Trade access, embargoing merchants. Trade seems much more "real" in this game than in EU4, so I could see going to war over market access.
Stay tuned, next week we’ll be talking about mercenaries, levies and regulars!
Getting into the warfare aspect of the game next? hype
 
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In that case, why do certain parts of England that are equidistant from London have different accessibility, is this due to the existence of large Towns/Cities like Norwich and Edinburgh, buildings, roads, or terrain? It would be great if you could give us a couple of case study of how the accessibility works for different provinces to allow us to understand this a bit better.
Transportation Cost.. Roads, Water, Terrain etc impacts it
 
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1) Is saltpeter a trade good?

2) Similarly, can stockpiles go bad? Bread rots, metal rusts, powder goes wet?

3) Are there events that will affect stockpiles?
 
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How will army supplies work in this "project ceasar". Will it depend on the market, distance and terrain hostility or even all of them? And if it is gonna work like a supply train where you need clear and protected passages for the suplies to come throught completely or a tottaly different concept?

Another concept, but it interacts with markets a bit.
 
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One thing I'm wondering regarding cost for shipping goods: is there are significant difference between sea and land shipping?

Here's an example from the early period of the game (Hanseatic League):
A Cog was able to move 40 tons of goods with a crew of 12 men. To move that same amount over land, you needed 40 wagons, 40 men and 160 horses, which was obviously much more expensive.

Trade over sea should be noticeably more efficient than land trade, not just allow access to way more markets all over the world.

Thats abstracted into sea travel costing less capacity to go through
 
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Every location and coastal seazone will belong to the most fitting market, which depends on the market attraction of the market, the distance between the location and the market center, diplomatic factors, and more.
Is the "distance" proximity, or control also plays a role?
 
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