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Tinto Talks #12 - 15th of May

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, where we delve into the details of the most top-secret project ever made.

This week we talk about something that is rather new to our GSG, and that is the concept of international organizations. Now this may sound like an anachronistic term, and when you read further in this Tinto Talks, you’ll go “but you already have this in previous games”. Yes, we did have some hard-coded systems in previous games, like the Holy Roman Empire, but what we have here in Project Caesar is a completely dynamic system, 100% scriptable and extendable for modders, which allows for many of these, and with far more flavor.

What is an international organization? Well, at its heart is a group of countries that share some common things, and then quite a few attributes that can be defined for them. The instruction file right now is 140 lines long, and it will keep growing.

Some examples of things that an IO can have are the following.
  • If it has a leader or not, and if the leader is a character or a country.
  • If it's unique or there can be multiples of it.
  • If locations can be owned by it or not.
  • Member benefits or penalties.
  • Laws and Policies it can have.
  • Special statuses inside the organization
  • How members will behave during wars
  • And dozens more unique attributes.
Membership in some of these can take a diplomatic relations slot.

As we continue our development of this game, we keep adding more of these, adding more unique flavor to the game.

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We have “control-groups” like every PDS game has had since EU1, and Stellaris added icons for quick selects… The one for Project Caesar can be pretty much anything in the game, and if you start as a member of an organization, you get a control group for it from the start.

Common Organizations
Let's take a look at some of the generic ones, some of these have been hard-coded systems in previous GSGs, and these are not unique organizations in a campaign, but can exist in multiple instances.
Coalitions
These can be created, with a country as a target, when the target has an aggressive expansion beyond a certain threshold.
Unions
This is a sort of defensive alliance between countries that share the same ruler. They may or may not have different levels of integration.

There are a few others like this, including defensive leagues and tribal federations.


Religious Organizations

Catholic Church
Every country in the world that is part of the Catholic faith is a part of this organization. They have issues that the cardinals vote on, and being a member has implications and restrictions. Of course, this has the added benefit of having Catholic pops in Catholic countries paying a tithe to the Church, which eventually finds its way into the Papacy.

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One reason to go Lutheran?

Crusades & Jihads
These are temporary international organizations that will be created when a Crusade or Jihad is called. They have a target set and act like an alliance against that country.

Autocephalous Patriarchates
Meaning self-headed, an Autocephalous Patriarchate is a metropolitan bishop in the Eastern Christian confessions which acts independently and does not depend on or answer to any other hierarchically superior church authority. The different patriarchates then have their own synods of bishops to decide upon anything affecting their own religious jurisdiction.


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WiP grahics etc.

There are many of these, for Orthodox, Miaphysite, and other Eastern Christian confessions.

There are many more, some other religions have a central organization, and others have fragmented ones.


Specific Organization
There are also a fair amount of completely unique and flavorful organizations.

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What's this then?

Tatar Yoke
The Tatar Yoke consists of various principalities of Eastern Europe that are subject to Tatar Rule following their invasion in the 13th century. The most prominent of rulers is awarded the title of Grand Prince, and is tasked with collecting tribute from the other tributaries on behalf of the Golden Horde Khan.

Middle Kingdom
The Middle Kingdom is the meaning of China and has been considered the cultural center of East Asia since Antiquity.

This organization is led by the Huángdì, the Emperor of China, who has a number of Fēng Chén, akin to vassals or tributaries, that can be promoted to Celestial Governors, equivalent to the Secretariats that the Yuán dynasty used in the administrative organization of their empire. Its members have a unique societal value, Sinicized vs Unsinicized, and there’s a Tribute system that determines how much Celestial Authority the Huángdì gets, which is used to enforce Laws and Decrees.

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The Tribute system is a system where the Huángdì sends gold to the other nations in the Middle Kingdom, depending on their size.

Holy Roman Empire
The glory of the ancient Roman Empire lives in the memory of all in Europe, Charlemagne was crowned Roman Emperor, but it was not until the coronation of Otto the Great that the current Holy Roman Empire was born, once again recovering the ambitions of a revived and unified European Empire.

This organization, of course led by an Emperor, has different statuses for countries like secular and religious electors, secular princes, free cities, and imperial prelates. It has laws that impact the organization and its members, the most important at the early game being the Golden Bull, which is a must to get approved in order to further develop the institutions of the Empire.

There are others in the game at the moment, like the Shogunate, the High Kingship of Ireland, and many more, as the system is very flexible to use.

Next week we will talk about what Religions we have in the game.
 
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Would it be possible as a modder to, say, model the Catholic Church at an individual diocese level using this mechanic, with all of those sub-organizations eventually "feeding" into the Papacy?

pretty sure you could.
 
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Hi, I have two questions regarding IO:

1) Is it used to represent complexe feudal relations like vassals having vassals themselves or having multiple overlords (Aquitaine being English while in theory being a subject of France) ?

2) Will IO "own" locations regardless what country owns them? Like non HRE TAGs owning HRE locations.


If the second is true, the same feature could also being used to portray tribal lands in North American while migratory Native TAGs are just standing armies with no location proper. This would allow better colonization and makes their nomadic behaviours better than in EU4 (armies had options to interact with provinces, now they can hunt in locations then move on when those are depleted)
 
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A capacity system is better because of its flexibility. Under slots it's a binary whether something is free or takes up a full slot. Under capacity you can have a close vassal take up 4, membership in a tight organization be 6.5, a guarantee of independence on a minor country be 2... basically have a finer grained view of how much work the foreign ministry has from different relation types.

Yeah, but it is also less obvious to the player. This is the constant debate.
 
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So if for example Ottomans become very big (Or Byzantium in alternative timeline) and start threatening HRE and rest of the Europe, will European countries be able to form Order Of a Dragon or a Holy League to resist it?
 
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I see "diplomatic relations slot" and it makes me slightly worried. I truly do not wish to see this system return in Project Caesar. I would much rather diplomacy take a page out of the book of Vic3, with it's diplomatic capacity mechanic (think a similar concept to governing capacity, but for diplo relations). The reason is because I do not think it is immersive, nor game-balanced, to equate a variety of different diplomatic relations in terms of how demanding they are on a nation (or better put, on the diplomats/administrators of the nation). A defensive pact (e.g. a guarantee) should not cost the same, gameplay wise, as an alliance (with offensive wars allowed). This to me was the beauty of the diplomatic capacity system, because it allowed for this distinction by setting different costs to diplomatic capacity based on the type of relation. Ultimately, this provides a lot more flexibility to the player as well; whether they wish to spread wide with a larger number of weaker relations, or go tall with a few but powerful ones. Another advantage I could see this system offers is that it also presents a natural mechanism for diplomats (in the EU4 sense) to slot in. Since mana is set to disappear, the restriction on number of diplomats should also disappear, or at least be folded into another system that gives it a soft cap - and this is what diplomatic capacity provides. Each active diplomat/envoy/embassy etc. should cost some of this capacity, with there being scaling penalties should a nation choose to exceed it (like the penalty to admin efficiency in EU4, but instead we could have a penalty to diplo efficiency - weakening the effectiveness of diplomats/putting strain on existing relations etc.).

And why stop there, you could even introduce military capacity as well to round out the trifecta. This could include a combination of costs coming from your army/navy, forts, and generals/admins; which would do away with force limits and leader limits by folding them into one system.

So your administrative (governing), diplomatic and military capacities could then all be part of a macro system the player gets to fiddle around with: for instance, a player focused on diplomacy might prioritize his/her diplomatic capacity over the others, by shifting some of the capacity of the other two into the one of greater use. You could even have these capacities be tied to population size, education levels and so on. There is so much potential here, I just really don't want to see this game go down such a boring road when it comes to diplomacy.

I have other worries as well, when it comes to aggressive expansion for example, but I think I'll save those for when we get more information.
 
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If it costs 1 slot or 6.5 capacity doesn't matter in the end.. its a simple change, and we are not sure which one we want atm.
This has been discussed many times on this forum and other platforms, but the general consensus among the community is that different diplomatic actions/relations should have different costs. For example, guaranteeing independence of a minor nation is not the same an alliance between two powerful states.

 
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So Unions are defensive pacts headed by a person. Is there a path to integration or other ways to get Union partners to be more integrated? I assume you can still ally them and they operate as a normal ally for offensive wars but its just they are no longer obligated like EUIV.
 
WOW its insane for real, i was wondering, is the "Chinese Middle Kingdom" a system that can "change the orientation of your country" ? let me explain my self...

We all know China got a different name evry time "Tang Dynasty, Ming, Qing, Han... and so on

-Is this "promotion of administration system" can change in depth your country and is path, lets say you force some Manchou Tribes to sicinized with them a lot, that can slowly change your country to the Qing Dynasty without bein invade by Manchou ?

-Or is it a system that only (maybe only for NOW) is a tributary system with only payment in cash or ressources (i assume) and a (what i understand after reading) a RELIGIOUS and CULTURAL "Harmony system like the Confucianism rleigion or the Moghols System in EU4" ?
 
My main question is
Are international organizations also going to simulate autonomy within the game or countries that are a single TAG have another autonomy level mechanic within them?

Seeing the examples you have given of what an IO can have, I can imagine that International Organizations will be so dynamic that you can create an HRE, religious organizations, a British or Dutch style commercial company or (with a lot of imagination) an IO without any province nor TAG but with income, armies and international relations. The doubt arises with single TAG countries.

For example, will Spain exist as TAG? or will it be an IO that can have Catille, Aragon, Naples, New Spain...? Or both?

And this leads me to another question, will we be able to play as IO?
 
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