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Tinto Talks #12 - 15th of May

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, where we delve into the details of the most top-secret project ever made.

This week we talk about something that is rather new to our GSG, and that is the concept of international organizations. Now this may sound like an anachronistic term, and when you read further in this Tinto Talks, you’ll go “but you already have this in previous games”. Yes, we did have some hard-coded systems in previous games, like the Holy Roman Empire, but what we have here in Project Caesar is a completely dynamic system, 100% scriptable and extendable for modders, which allows for many of these, and with far more flavor.

What is an international organization? Well, at its heart is a group of countries that share some common things, and then quite a few attributes that can be defined for them. The instruction file right now is 140 lines long, and it will keep growing.

Some examples of things that an IO can have are the following.
  • If it has a leader or not, and if the leader is a character or a country.
  • If it's unique or there can be multiples of it.
  • If locations can be owned by it or not.
  • Member benefits or penalties.
  • Laws and Policies it can have.
  • Special statuses inside the organization
  • How members will behave during wars
  • And dozens more unique attributes.
Membership in some of these can take a diplomatic relations slot.

As we continue our development of this game, we keep adding more of these, adding more unique flavor to the game.

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We have “control-groups” like every PDS game has had since EU1, and Stellaris added icons for quick selects… The one for Project Caesar can be pretty much anything in the game, and if you start as a member of an organization, you get a control group for it from the start.

Common Organizations
Let's take a look at some of the generic ones, some of these have been hard-coded systems in previous GSGs, and these are not unique organizations in a campaign, but can exist in multiple instances.
Coalitions
These can be created, with a country as a target, when the target has an aggressive expansion beyond a certain threshold.
Unions
This is a sort of defensive alliance between countries that share the same ruler. They may or may not have different levels of integration.

There are a few others like this, including defensive leagues and tribal federations.


Religious Organizations

Catholic Church
Every country in the world that is part of the Catholic faith is a part of this organization. They have issues that the cardinals vote on, and being a member has implications and restrictions. Of course, this has the added benefit of having Catholic pops in Catholic countries paying a tithe to the Church, which eventually finds its way into the Papacy.

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One reason to go Lutheran?

Crusades & Jihads
These are temporary international organizations that will be created when a Crusade or Jihad is called. They have a target set and act like an alliance against that country.

Autocephalous Patriarchates
Meaning self-headed, an Autocephalous Patriarchate is a metropolitan bishop in the Eastern Christian confessions which acts independently and does not depend on or answer to any other hierarchically superior church authority. The different patriarchates then have their own synods of bishops to decide upon anything affecting their own religious jurisdiction.


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WiP grahics etc.

There are many of these, for Orthodox, Miaphysite, and other Eastern Christian confessions.

There are many more, some other religions have a central organization, and others have fragmented ones.


Specific Organization
There are also a fair amount of completely unique and flavorful organizations.

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What's this then?

Tatar Yoke
The Tatar Yoke consists of various principalities of Eastern Europe that are subject to Tatar Rule following their invasion in the 13th century. The most prominent of rulers is awarded the title of Grand Prince, and is tasked with collecting tribute from the other tributaries on behalf of the Golden Horde Khan.

Middle Kingdom
The Middle Kingdom is the meaning of China and has been considered the cultural center of East Asia since Antiquity.

This organization is led by the Huángdì, the Emperor of China, who has a number of Fēng Chén, akin to vassals or tributaries, that can be promoted to Celestial Governors, equivalent to the Secretariats that the Yuán dynasty used in the administrative organization of their empire. Its members have a unique societal value, Sinicized vs Unsinicized, and there’s a Tribute system that determines how much Celestial Authority the Huángdì gets, which is used to enforce Laws and Decrees.

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The Tribute system is a system where the Huángdì sends gold to the other nations in the Middle Kingdom, depending on their size.

Holy Roman Empire
The glory of the ancient Roman Empire lives in the memory of all in Europe, Charlemagne was crowned Roman Emperor, but it was not until the coronation of Otto the Great that the current Holy Roman Empire was born, once again recovering the ambitions of a revived and unified European Empire.

This organization, of course led by an Emperor, has different statuses for countries like secular and religious electors, secular princes, free cities, and imperial prelates. It has laws that impact the organization and its members, the most important at the early game being the Golden Bull, which is a must to get approved in order to further develop the institutions of the Empire.

There are others in the game at the moment, like the Shogunate, the High Kingship of Ireland, and many more, as the system is very flexible to use.

Next week we will talk about what Religions we have in the game.
 
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Could be yes, but its unique per IO if the content designer has designed it that way.
I'm looking forward to the mod that changes that to a strong YES. Not that it would make sense or be good for gameplay, but coalitions, jihads, churches etc. materializing and then ending up in the most odd places is something I want to see.
 
Does the black part of the map at the east mean that we get progressive map unveiling once more ?

(i'm comparing to CK3, VK3 and Imperator which lacked this system)

yes
 
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Is the Shogunate an IO?

(FWIW, I like the overarching feature title of IO - people are probably gonna refer to the individual orgs more often. Might be better in a font with serifs, though.)
 
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Are there any unique organizations that form later in the game?

Can a country create their own custom organization If the right conditions come up? Like, could a dominant Peru become the China of south america?
 
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when will you talk about diplomatic agreements?

And can you give a sneak peek at whether the "eternal" alliances of EU4 are a thing of the past? (Not that they have to be impossible, looking at you portugal - england)
 
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However, I think it should work the following way..

An alliance between France and Ulm should cost MORE for Ulm than France.
If diplomatic capacity represents the number of diplomats a nation has at its availability, and if larger nations have more diplomats because they have more people to pull from (i.e. greater likelihood of finding talent, more money to provide training etc.), then this cost is already baked into the system, but it is more of an opportunity cost, rather than a strict cost difference such as France needing 5 diplomats while Ulm needs 10. In other words, if alliances cost 5 but Ulm has a capacity of 15, whereas France has a capacity of 30, the relative cost remains the same as Ulm is using twice its available capacity proportionally compared to France to maintain the relation (i.e one third versus one sixth).
 
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I’m really excited to see this IO system in action, hopefully it provides the more nuanced take on the relationships between nations which EU4 desperately lacked in places.

I, along with many others on the forum, would love to see the player given the opportunity to assemble their own IOs. It could provide new roleplaying opportunities, as well as potentially giving the player an alternative to war and conquest as their only means of expanding power.

Im a huge fan of the idea of growing a nation through diplomatic means, the trade system was very exciting to me in this regard. Will there be an emphasis placed, through the IO system or otherwise, for players to achieve their ends through diplomacy?
 
However, I think it should work the following way..

An alliance between France and Ulm should cost MORE for Ulm than France.
I'd also argue that a very lopsided alliance like the example should carry great risk of complete loss of autonomy for the smaller nation. Yeah France may protect you, but they also expect you to conform to their wishes.
 
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Then keep the numbers whole and have each point of capacity represent one diplomatic worker (sourced from the nobility estate or wherever).
I agree. I think numbers in general should not be shown to such high degrees of precision. It just clutters the UI with useless significant figures. Maybe at a glance they should be rounded, with the option to view the precise value in a dropdown or popup or something?
 
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