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Tinto Talks #12 - 15th of May

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, where we delve into the details of the most top-secret project ever made.

This week we talk about something that is rather new to our GSG, and that is the concept of international organizations. Now this may sound like an anachronistic term, and when you read further in this Tinto Talks, you’ll go “but you already have this in previous games”. Yes, we did have some hard-coded systems in previous games, like the Holy Roman Empire, but what we have here in Project Caesar is a completely dynamic system, 100% scriptable and extendable for modders, which allows for many of these, and with far more flavor.

What is an international organization? Well, at its heart is a group of countries that share some common things, and then quite a few attributes that can be defined for them. The instruction file right now is 140 lines long, and it will keep growing.

Some examples of things that an IO can have are the following.
  • If it has a leader or not, and if the leader is a character or a country.
  • If it's unique or there can be multiples of it.
  • If locations can be owned by it or not.
  • Member benefits or penalties.
  • Laws and Policies it can have.
  • Special statuses inside the organization
  • How members will behave during wars
  • And dozens more unique attributes.
Membership in some of these can take a diplomatic relations slot.

As we continue our development of this game, we keep adding more of these, adding more unique flavor to the game.

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We have “control-groups” like every PDS game has had since EU1, and Stellaris added icons for quick selects… The one for Project Caesar can be pretty much anything in the game, and if you start as a member of an organization, you get a control group for it from the start.

Common Organizations
Let's take a look at some of the generic ones, some of these have been hard-coded systems in previous GSGs, and these are not unique organizations in a campaign, but can exist in multiple instances.
Coalitions
These can be created, with a country as a target, when the target has an aggressive expansion beyond a certain threshold.
Unions
This is a sort of defensive alliance between countries that share the same ruler. They may or may not have different levels of integration.

There are a few others like this, including defensive leagues and tribal federations.


Religious Organizations

Catholic Church
Every country in the world that is part of the Catholic faith is a part of this organization. They have issues that the cardinals vote on, and being a member has implications and restrictions. Of course, this has the added benefit of having Catholic pops in Catholic countries paying a tithe to the Church, which eventually finds its way into the Papacy.

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One reason to go Lutheran?

Crusades & Jihads
These are temporary international organizations that will be created when a Crusade or Jihad is called. They have a target set and act like an alliance against that country.

Autocephalous Patriarchates
Meaning self-headed, an Autocephalous Patriarchate is a metropolitan bishop in the Eastern Christian confessions which acts independently and does not depend on or answer to any other hierarchically superior church authority. The different patriarchates then have their own synods of bishops to decide upon anything affecting their own religious jurisdiction.


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WiP grahics etc.

There are many of these, for Orthodox, Miaphysite, and other Eastern Christian confessions.

There are many more, some other religions have a central organization, and others have fragmented ones.


Specific Organization
There are also a fair amount of completely unique and flavorful organizations.

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What's this then?

Tatar Yoke
The Tatar Yoke consists of various principalities of Eastern Europe that are subject to Tatar Rule following their invasion in the 13th century. The most prominent of rulers is awarded the title of Grand Prince, and is tasked with collecting tribute from the other tributaries on behalf of the Golden Horde Khan.

Middle Kingdom
The Middle Kingdom is the meaning of China and has been considered the cultural center of East Asia since Antiquity.

This organization is led by the Huángdì, the Emperor of China, who has a number of Fēng Chén, akin to vassals or tributaries, that can be promoted to Celestial Governors, equivalent to the Secretariats that the Yuán dynasty used in the administrative organization of their empire. Its members have a unique societal value, Sinicized vs Unsinicized, and there’s a Tribute system that determines how much Celestial Authority the Huángdì gets, which is used to enforce Laws and Decrees.

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The Tribute system is a system where the Huángdì sends gold to the other nations in the Middle Kingdom, depending on their size.

Holy Roman Empire
The glory of the ancient Roman Empire lives in the memory of all in Europe, Charlemagne was crowned Roman Emperor, but it was not until the coronation of Otto the Great that the current Holy Roman Empire was born, once again recovering the ambitions of a revived and unified European Empire.

This organization, of course led by an Emperor, has different statuses for countries like secular and religious electors, secular princes, free cities, and imperial prelates. It has laws that impact the organization and its members, the most important at the early game being the Golden Bull, which is a must to get approved in order to further develop the institutions of the Empire.

There are others in the game at the moment, like the Shogunate, the High Kingship of Ireland, and many more, as the system is very flexible to use.

Next week we will talk about what Religions we have in the game.
 
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Just on the tribute system in China, Yuan is the "payer" and the tributaries are its "payees" (change this word to recipients maybe?) -- how does this benefit Yuan? İ thought tribute would be demanded from the subjects, not offered to them..
There's research thatd disagrees with the view that the Chinese tribute system was designed to benefit China at the expense of its tributees. Instead, Chinese tributaries and China benefitted from the relationship. One of those aspects involved China sending money to fund its tributaires' missions to China, which I believe is what is portrayed in that relationship, with Yuan sending money to its tributaries. I don't remember exactly the dynamics, but as far as I know it is accurate for the tributaires to benefit from China's overlordship
 
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1. Can a ruler who rules two countries in a pu name one heir the heir for one country and a diffrent heir the heir for his second country? I.e if i rule poland and lithuania can i make one child prince of poland and second prince of lithuania? So that the union dissolves after the kings death?
2. You mentioned that a pu is a defensive allience at "best" would that mean that getting a pu might be a negative in project ceasar?
3. While on topic of rulers can we get a slightly better heir system then in (for example) eu4? Currently your heir cannot have children unless they are a king themselves or the fact that the game acts like onece you have an heir you dont have any other children so if you disown one kid you need to wait for another. So could we get a slight family tree that gets created in the backround (ofc no need for scale of ck3)?
 
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Wow, great that there will now be more non-state actors in game!

Will the Congress of Vienna and later Congress of Europe (Or something similar, but more dynamicly created) be included as international organisations? Those would be systems with incredible flavour potential!

Also, perhaps this is asked somewhere already, but what about banks and religious orders? Are they also international organisations?
 
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No questions/issues with the main topic of today's TT, it looks great, one tiny suggestion though about the map:

Bez tytułu.png


I see Polish letters are implemented, there are "ę", "ł" and "ó" already, so this one should be "Żagań" instead of "Zagan", or "Zaháň" if Czech version will be default (or "Sagan" if German).
Same with Oels - that's a German name, Polish one is Oleśnica. It looks a bit strange since all other ones in the region (Legnica, Opole, Racibórz, Jawor etc.) are Polish.

Also Poland:

plakaty-ogryzek.png
 
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EU5 Project Caesar is impressing me more with every dev diary that comes out. It's like Tinto is adding every feature I wish was in recent Paradox GSGs but isn't. Huge kudos to Johan and Tinto for making a game with this level of mechanical depth, especially since it would've been all too easy to follow up EU4 with another "streamlined" map painter instead of a next-level immersive strategy game.
 
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This is genuinely amazing.

I'm going to revive my question from the Tinto Maps thread and ask "about LARPing an early Netherlands by establishing a personal union over all of the land, forming something like "The United Dutch Principalities" where I am head of state of all/most of the subdivisions but maybe Utrecht is incorporated as a state but remains theocratic."

From what you have said, the PU established would create an IO, but could my vassals join it? So if one of us vassalises Utrecht could they join? Could I also establish a parliament for my IO?

Regarding the latter point, several New World colonies break free together and all decide to team up. Maybe 13 of them? Can they establish an Internal Organisation (The United States has a night ring to it) and elect a leader, a president if you will, between themselves? Could they also perhaps create territories held by this IO which can later become states in their own right?
 
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So frigging cool! Is this how trade leagues like the hansa or the banking countries work? Through this IO mechanic?

they have other mechanics..

It would be better to ask when those mechanics are revealed, but still: What was the reasoning behind making them differ from these other 'international organisations'?

The name international organisation would communicate to me that it also includes them, since those are also in the game. Was this possible confusion considered?
Still very happy both are included at all!

On a related note, are there national organisations besides estates, such as guilds? If so, would they be able to become international organisations?
 
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Its not yet, but its something we want to do.
Uri and Shwyz are depicted here as separate countries. If a CH isn’t planned for release, then is there a reason the continuent members from 1291 are depicted as independent? Relatedly, it looks like Bern is geographically the largest free city, as it was historically. Is this because the ‘location’ it occupies is very large, or can free cities now own additional territory?
 
Will language have an influane in IOs?
Like the German States can probaly work better together than Hungary and Serbia
 
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You could call it bloc like in Victoria 3.

Then for each purpose have it change dynamically:

Political bloc
Trade/Economic bloc
Religious bloc
Imperial bloc
Shogunate bloc
Etc…
 
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The Tribute system is a system where the Huángdì sends gold to the other nations in the Middle Kingdom, depending on their size.
I am quite impressed with this system. It is pretty accurate. Just one thing though - do the tributary states give tributes to the emperor such as exotic goods?
 
Its called "Coalition"
Will the AI understand the use of coalitions in countering strong nations that threaten them and then join the player in countering said strong nations? Or will they end up like coalitions in EU4 where they're only ever used against the player expanding too much, but is very rarely, if ever, able to be used against an AI nation alongside other ai nations?
 
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Will religious organization have their own reforms and/or have different mechanics ?
If they do will you be able to pass a reform and for exemple enable a mechanic like the defender of faith where the leader of the religious organization would be tasked with defending its members ?
 
So what is the mechanical difference between being led by a country or a character? Currently if feels like a distinction without a difference.

Countries does not ALWAYS have a ruler.

and if its character, if that character dies, a new leader has to be picked etc..

In real life.. USA is always the leader of NATO, even though the ruler of USA has switched quite a few times since 1945
 
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