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Tinto Talks #12 - 15th of May

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, where we delve into the details of the most top-secret project ever made.

This week we talk about something that is rather new to our GSG, and that is the concept of international organizations. Now this may sound like an anachronistic term, and when you read further in this Tinto Talks, you’ll go “but you already have this in previous games”. Yes, we did have some hard-coded systems in previous games, like the Holy Roman Empire, but what we have here in Project Caesar is a completely dynamic system, 100% scriptable and extendable for modders, which allows for many of these, and with far more flavor.

What is an international organization? Well, at its heart is a group of countries that share some common things, and then quite a few attributes that can be defined for them. The instruction file right now is 140 lines long, and it will keep growing.

Some examples of things that an IO can have are the following.
  • If it has a leader or not, and if the leader is a character or a country.
  • If it's unique or there can be multiples of it.
  • If locations can be owned by it or not.
  • Member benefits or penalties.
  • Laws and Policies it can have.
  • Special statuses inside the organization
  • How members will behave during wars
  • And dozens more unique attributes.
Membership in some of these can take a diplomatic relations slot.

As we continue our development of this game, we keep adding more of these, adding more unique flavor to the game.

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We have “control-groups” like every PDS game has had since EU1, and Stellaris added icons for quick selects… The one for Project Caesar can be pretty much anything in the game, and if you start as a member of an organization, you get a control group for it from the start.

Common Organizations
Let's take a look at some of the generic ones, some of these have been hard-coded systems in previous GSGs, and these are not unique organizations in a campaign, but can exist in multiple instances.
Coalitions
These can be created, with a country as a target, when the target has an aggressive expansion beyond a certain threshold.
Unions
This is a sort of defensive alliance between countries that share the same ruler. They may or may not have different levels of integration.

There are a few others like this, including defensive leagues and tribal federations.


Religious Organizations

Catholic Church
Every country in the world that is part of the Catholic faith is a part of this organization. They have issues that the cardinals vote on, and being a member has implications and restrictions. Of course, this has the added benefit of having Catholic pops in Catholic countries paying a tithe to the Church, which eventually finds its way into the Papacy.

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One reason to go Lutheran?

Crusades & Jihads
These are temporary international organizations that will be created when a Crusade or Jihad is called. They have a target set and act like an alliance against that country.

Autocephalous Patriarchates
Meaning self-headed, an Autocephalous Patriarchate is a metropolitan bishop in the Eastern Christian confessions which acts independently and does not depend on or answer to any other hierarchically superior church authority. The different patriarchates then have their own synods of bishops to decide upon anything affecting their own religious jurisdiction.


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WiP grahics etc.

There are many of these, for Orthodox, Miaphysite, and other Eastern Christian confessions.

There are many more, some other religions have a central organization, and others have fragmented ones.


Specific Organization
There are also a fair amount of completely unique and flavorful organizations.

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What's this then?

Tatar Yoke
The Tatar Yoke consists of various principalities of Eastern Europe that are subject to Tatar Rule following their invasion in the 13th century. The most prominent of rulers is awarded the title of Grand Prince, and is tasked with collecting tribute from the other tributaries on behalf of the Golden Horde Khan.

Middle Kingdom
The Middle Kingdom is the meaning of China and has been considered the cultural center of East Asia since Antiquity.

This organization is led by the Huángdì, the Emperor of China, who has a number of Fēng Chén, akin to vassals or tributaries, that can be promoted to Celestial Governors, equivalent to the Secretariats that the Yuán dynasty used in the administrative organization of their empire. Its members have a unique societal value, Sinicized vs Unsinicized, and there’s a Tribute system that determines how much Celestial Authority the Huángdì gets, which is used to enforce Laws and Decrees.

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The Tribute system is a system where the Huángdì sends gold to the other nations in the Middle Kingdom, depending on their size.

Holy Roman Empire
The glory of the ancient Roman Empire lives in the memory of all in Europe, Charlemagne was crowned Roman Emperor, but it was not until the coronation of Otto the Great that the current Holy Roman Empire was born, once again recovering the ambitions of a revived and unified European Empire.

This organization, of course led by an Emperor, has different statuses for countries like secular and religious electors, secular princes, free cities, and imperial prelates. It has laws that impact the organization and its members, the most important at the early game being the Golden Bull, which is a must to get approved in order to further develop the institutions of the Empire.

There are others in the game at the moment, like the Shogunate, the High Kingship of Ireland, and many more, as the system is very flexible to use.

Next week we will talk about what Religions we have in the game.
 
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It should be possible for a OI to be part of a OI. For example we could have the OI of the kingdom of Italy, which is historically accurate, although it was only honorary and didn't have any real power, but that could be a mechanich: for example Austria, the emperor, nominates a king of Italy, like Milan with the goal of letting it assert the empire control over northen Italy, but the kingdom of Italy itself should have internal mechanichs, maybe republics could become "kings" too (not at the start obviously) and maybe the kingdom could slowly become more integrated and become a single TAG in the HRE or become indepenedent. A modern time example could be France, in the EU and the EU in ONU.
 
Are the "Teutonic Order" and the "Livonian Order" also in an International Organisation ("The State of the Teutonic Order")? It would make a lot of sense to represent the relationship between the two, and is indeed probably one of the best mechanics for this?

This IO could even have a third member, the (for gameplay reasons) landless "German Branch" that would represent the Teutonic Order in the Netherlands and central HRE.
 
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Kind of.. You can belong to multiple ones, and they can be related.

Pretty sure Guelphs is one, and so if Ghibellines, and they are only for HRE members.
PLEASE HEAR ME OUT!
You might be missing an incredible opportunity.
It's one thing to be able to be part of multiple IO (which was already possible in a completely unrelated game like EUIV), it's another HUGE thing to be able to have an IO which is part of another IO itself, not its members.
For example: Playing as Florence, create the IO of Tuscany. Tuscany - not Florence - could be part of the IO of Italy! Or the HRE!
Another example: Iberican IO, which is part of the EU.
A modern example: France is part of the EU, which is part of United Nations Organization!!

A detail: in the first example. Florence could be part of Italy IO too, but with a secondary role. While Tuscany (of which Florence is part) could have a primary role (such as electors in the HRE in contrast to normal members).
I might be dumb or something but I think this would add soooo much to the game and you shouldn't miss this train, please think about it and let me know!
 
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IO = multiple countries.
Tready = bilateral only.

And yes, our treaties are entirely new and unique as well..
Then make the IO a creatable thing! Why only have bilateral treaty??? That's what I hate about EU4, I have to conquer stuff in the end.. I want to be able to unify italy peacefully as a federation, starting from a multilateral alliance or treaty like Peace Of Lodi (historical)
 
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Don't expect a reply to this, but I've just been thinking about Switzerland and Austrian Swabia. Obviously, the Swabian wars were a thing, and the Swiss went to war with Austria a few times and made some gains but never really displaced Austria. If we get Switzerland being an IO, I don't think it makes a lot of sense for all of their Swabian lands to be eaten up by cantons which happen to border Austria. I think we have confirmation of customisable subjects in PC, so I hope that confederations like Switzerland have a peace option to release locations as a canton to join the confederation. I'm not sure exactly how to make that work, because sometimes the cantons should be able to grow in war too, but I hope it is somehow possible.
 
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As you can see on the map, many of the lands that became Chinese territories in the 15th century or even further into the future still had their own regimes in the 14th century. The Chinese emperor first used a lot of gifts to make other regimes recognize the emperor as their monarch, and then used various means to strengthen this relationship, either diplomatically, militarily, or both. Only regimes that could withstand this influence were able to remain independent,Regimes that could not resist this influence would find that their internal politics were increasingly interfered with by the emperor, and their lands increasingly became the real lands of the emperor. In this process, some of these local regimes were abolished by the emperor in ancient times and subsequently managed by Chinese bureaucrats. Dali in the map is an example. Some continued until the weakening of the Qing Empire in the 19th century. These survivors either completely severed ties with China under the influence of the great powers (such as Vietnam, Korea and Mongolia), or were subsequently recovered by the Chinese Communist Party and eventually became part of modern China (such as Tibet).
Just on the tribute system in China, Yuan is the "payer" and the tributaries are its "payees" (change this word to recipients maybe?) -- how does this benefit Yuan? İ thought tribute would be demanded from the subjects, not offered to them..
 
So, despite starting united, Georgian Patriarchate has actually four entities under it. Does this mean that Countries will actually have CK style internal subdivisions and autonomous entities, or are those flags something else?
 
Don't expect a reply to this, or for this to be implemented if not already, but can IOs interact with IOs?

Specifically, I have an idea for a very cursed mod inspired by one of my favourite CK3 playthroughs, Rurik -> Slavia. I want to make a system where we have an IO called the Slavic Empire which is an elective monarchy which has internal kingdom-level divisions which are also elective monarchies, where each kingdom is also an IO and all members of the IO are valid electors and eligible for Kingship. I would then have it that the kings for each elective kingdom are the electors and the candidates for the title of Emperor of the Slavs.

This is very much, what would the nightmare of Voltaire's nightmare look like, but some of us find that fun.
 
The Autocephalous Patriarchate of... Sofia? Pretty sure you mean the Tarnovo Patriarchate... of Tarnovo... obviously. Also, going through that list, it should be the Church of Cyprus (not led by any patriarch), the Georgian Orthodox Church (you misspelled *Tbilisi*, by the way) and the Armenian Apostolic Church (headquartered in Sis and led by a catholicos, which is a position superior to a patriarch in that church).

Is the Maronite Church an IO?

The IOs created by calling a crusade should be called *Holy Leagues*.

Can you establish the Livonian Confederation as an IO?

I believe one IO you should add at the starting date should be the Kingdom of France. This would better simulate the political dynamics of the 14th and 15th century, in which France in the political sense would encompass lands owned by the king, by his friends, and even by his foes. Ambitious rulers (the King of England, the Duke of Burgundy) would seek to avoid paying homage to a foreign sovereign for their French lands. Whoever sits on the throne would have a natural sphere of interests, for having a hostile Burgundy would be politically more damaging than a hostile Brabant- they are both foreign powers, but only one is also a foreign land. And that natural sphere of interests can set the boundaries for expansionist aims. Ultimately, if the country whose ruler sits on the French throne can become dominant within the IO by means of conquest or vassalage, then the Kingdom of France will transform into a full-fledged country.

(Edited the last paragraph slightly because the initial formulation was a bit clumsy.)
 
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