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Tinto Talks #12 - 15th of May

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, where we delve into the details of the most top-secret project ever made.

This week we talk about something that is rather new to our GSG, and that is the concept of international organizations. Now this may sound like an anachronistic term, and when you read further in this Tinto Talks, you’ll go “but you already have this in previous games”. Yes, we did have some hard-coded systems in previous games, like the Holy Roman Empire, but what we have here in Project Caesar is a completely dynamic system, 100% scriptable and extendable for modders, which allows for many of these, and with far more flavor.

What is an international organization? Well, at its heart is a group of countries that share some common things, and then quite a few attributes that can be defined for them. The instruction file right now is 140 lines long, and it will keep growing.

Some examples of things that an IO can have are the following.
  • If it has a leader or not, and if the leader is a character or a country.
  • If it's unique or there can be multiples of it.
  • If locations can be owned by it or not.
  • Member benefits or penalties.
  • Laws and Policies it can have.
  • Special statuses inside the organization
  • How members will behave during wars
  • And dozens more unique attributes.
Membership in some of these can take a diplomatic relations slot.

As we continue our development of this game, we keep adding more of these, adding more unique flavor to the game.

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We have “control-groups” like every PDS game has had since EU1, and Stellaris added icons for quick selects… The one for Project Caesar can be pretty much anything in the game, and if you start as a member of an organization, you get a control group for it from the start.

Common Organizations
Let's take a look at some of the generic ones, some of these have been hard-coded systems in previous GSGs, and these are not unique organizations in a campaign, but can exist in multiple instances.
Coalitions
These can be created, with a country as a target, when the target has an aggressive expansion beyond a certain threshold.
Unions
This is a sort of defensive alliance between countries that share the same ruler. They may or may not have different levels of integration.

There are a few others like this, including defensive leagues and tribal federations.


Religious Organizations

Catholic Church
Every country in the world that is part of the Catholic faith is a part of this organization. They have issues that the cardinals vote on, and being a member has implications and restrictions. Of course, this has the added benefit of having Catholic pops in Catholic countries paying a tithe to the Church, which eventually finds its way into the Papacy.

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One reason to go Lutheran?

Crusades & Jihads
These are temporary international organizations that will be created when a Crusade or Jihad is called. They have a target set and act like an alliance against that country.

Autocephalous Patriarchates
Meaning self-headed, an Autocephalous Patriarchate is a metropolitan bishop in the Eastern Christian confessions which acts independently and does not depend on or answer to any other hierarchically superior church authority. The different patriarchates then have their own synods of bishops to decide upon anything affecting their own religious jurisdiction.


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WiP grahics etc.

There are many of these, for Orthodox, Miaphysite, and other Eastern Christian confessions.

There are many more, some other religions have a central organization, and others have fragmented ones.


Specific Organization
There are also a fair amount of completely unique and flavorful organizations.

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What's this then?

Tatar Yoke
The Tatar Yoke consists of various principalities of Eastern Europe that are subject to Tatar Rule following their invasion in the 13th century. The most prominent of rulers is awarded the title of Grand Prince, and is tasked with collecting tribute from the other tributaries on behalf of the Golden Horde Khan.

Middle Kingdom
The Middle Kingdom is the meaning of China and has been considered the cultural center of East Asia since Antiquity.

This organization is led by the Huángdì, the Emperor of China, who has a number of Fēng Chén, akin to vassals or tributaries, that can be promoted to Celestial Governors, equivalent to the Secretariats that the Yuán dynasty used in the administrative organization of their empire. Its members have a unique societal value, Sinicized vs Unsinicized, and there’s a Tribute system that determines how much Celestial Authority the Huángdì gets, which is used to enforce Laws and Decrees.

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The Tribute system is a system where the Huángdì sends gold to the other nations in the Middle Kingdom, depending on their size.

Holy Roman Empire
The glory of the ancient Roman Empire lives in the memory of all in Europe, Charlemagne was crowned Roman Emperor, but it was not until the coronation of Otto the Great that the current Holy Roman Empire was born, once again recovering the ambitions of a revived and unified European Empire.

This organization, of course led by an Emperor, has different statuses for countries like secular and religious electors, secular princes, free cities, and imperial prelates. It has laws that impact the organization and its members, the most important at the early game being the Golden Bull, which is a must to get approved in order to further develop the institutions of the Empire.

There are others in the game at the moment, like the Shogunate, the High Kingship of Ireland, and many more, as the system is very flexible to use.

Next week we will talk about what Religions we have in the game.
 
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More accurately, it should be any country that claims to be Emperor, as even the relatively tiny and short-lived Xi dynasty called itself Great Xi. Countries whose title of Emperor of China is undisputed should be called Unified Great X instead, in the model of 大明一統 (Unified Great Ming) and 大清一統 (Unified Great Qing)

This only became a thing with the Yuan Dynasty, they were the first to have Great in their national title. The subsequent Ming and Qing borrowed that.

I dont know why you insist on unified..., that was never a thing, national titles have always been one or two chinese characters
 
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I am not aware if this has been addressed under this thread already, but the autocephalous patriarchate in Bulgaria was based in Tarnovo/Tarnovgrad (today Veliko Tarnovo) which was the capital of the Second Bulgarian Tsardom, not in Sofia. Provided are several sources that bares mention of the Tarnovo patriarchate/patriarchs:

Korogodina, Maria V. Patriarch Germanus II of Constantinople and the Slavic World.
Marie-Hélène Blanchet. Metropolitan Ignatius of Tarnovo and the Union of Florence.
Ilieva, Tatyana, To The Question of the Lexical Richness in the Works of Euthymius the Patriarch of Tarnovo.

Additionally, I find the (political) map of Bulgaria to have several inaccuracies, notably in the areas of the Rhodope mountains, Mesemvria (today Nessebar) and the Western Balkan mountains. I am attaching a website that focuses on tracking the territorial evolution of the Second Bulgarian Tsardom by making use of the existing literature on the topic (it is in Bulgarian however). - spatium.bg

Hopefully this aids in the development process of building a map that is as accurate as possible. I love what we have seen so far.
 
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Incredible! We could have a IO based on financial domination, for Venice, Florence (Medici) etc... Level of control on the borrowers which can be slowly integrated as they get more financially depended on the lender.
 
I have a suggestion which I believe would be AWESOME: make it possible to create an IO for uniting country, I'm especially talking about Italy, but maybe we could do for Germany too. For example I think about the Peace Of Lodi in the 15th century... It was a kind of italian alliance based on the diplomatic skills of Lorenzo il Magnifico. Something like that should be a starting point to create an IO and gradually unite Italy peacefully. It would really be great, I Hate that in a completely unrelated game like EUIV I had to conquer almost every province, it would be awesome to be able to make alliances in Italy and finally stop being dominated by foreign powers. It would make peacetime gameplay really interesting, but it would have to be really really difficult and slow, otherwise it would be boring. Filled with texture and flavour. Also it should be very customizable: one could work to unite it under the king of Naples, but I would say it should be more difficult than uniting it under a republic in which all parties are represented and valued. It should be possible that they don't even elect a leader or a country leader, but just an integrated organization of cooperation where everyone reamins autonomous. Thanks for the attention, I would really love this and please take it into consideration cause people get bored of waging war all the time and peacetime really needs to be entarteining and hard!!
 
I am not aware if this has been addressed under this thread already, but the autocephalous patriarchate in Bulgaria was based in Tarnovo/Tarnovgrad (today Veliko Tarnovo)
Yes, and apparently solved already (there's a button too right to filter on dev comments)

Additionally, I find the (political) map of Bulgaria to have several inaccuracies,
I look forward to the longest thread in pdx forum history in a few weeks, Tinto map Balkans :)
 
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View attachment 1135609

I am not aware if this has been addressed under this thread already, but the autocephalous patriarchate in Bulgaria was based in Tarnovo/Tarnovgrad (today Veliko Tarnovo) which was the capital of the Second Bulgarian Tsardom, not in Sofia. Provided are several sources that bares mention of the Tarnovo patriarchate/patriarchs:

Korogodina, Maria V. Patriarch Germanus II of Constantinople and the Slavic World.
Marie-Hélène Blanchet. Metropolitan Ignatius of Tarnovo and the Union of Florence.
Ilieva, Tatyana, To The Question of the Lexical Richness in the Works of Euthymius the Patriarch of Tarnovo.

Additionally, I find the (political) map of Bulgaria to have several inaccuracies, notably in the areas of the Rhodope mountains, Mesemvria (today Nessebar) and the Western Balkan mountains. I am attaching a website that focuses on tracking the territorial evolution of the Second Bulgarian Tsardom by making use of the existing literature on the topic (it is in Bulgarian however). - spatium.bg

Hopefully this aids in the development process of building a map that is as accurate as possible. I love what we have seen so far.
There's a Johan post buried somewhere that says that it has been corrected.
 
yeah, we have been trying to figure out a better name for this for the last 2.5 years we've had the system.
Yeah, I think the "issue" comes down to trying to be too definitive with it with words like "international." Generally people prefer the sound of a simple noun for things and when it's not available they'll try to reduce it to something like a simple noun, e.g. "one province minor" and the more colloquial "OPM."

If you are dead set against "organizations" for the name and would prefer something more descriptive you could try "Affiliations" for the term. Thesaurus dot com describes it as "in association with an organization" which feels like a good fit and puts it as synonymous with "alliance," "coalition," "league," and "union" which describe some of the organizations within the original post. Within the game when looking at something like the Diplomacy screen it might say something like "Affiliated with the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople; the Tatar Yoke; etc."
 
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International Organizations are not eternal and can disappear for a variety of reasons. Some will fail as soon as there is no valid leader country, whereas others are more aspirational or cultural in nature and don't necessarily need a leader to still exist in the minds of its members.

The High Kingship of Ireland falls under the latter; membership (and therefore leadership) is limited to specific kinds of country with a capital in Ireland and it will persist as long as it has members.

So England can theoretically become the High King if it manages to jump through hoops to become a valid member beforehand, but if it doesn't then the International Organization will simply fall out of existence once all its member countries become extinct.

That said its exact features are still in development so the rules are subject to change.
1333 is not long after Edward Bruce's abortive attempt at being a high king of Ireland or, for that matter, after Haakon IV was offered the High-Kingship to expel the English from Ireland.

It would be fantastic if in certain circumstances, non-Irish foreign kings or princes (or family members) could be offered the High-Kingship in return for defeating the English and banishing them from the country.
 
Hope I'm not to late for Feedback/Questions for this area/map, specifically I wanna ask about North Frisia. While the area isn't completly visable in the map, the borders seem to be the modern ones after the 1362 Flood, prior to which the coastline extended much further into what is today sea. Has this been something thats already been adressed? If not, and if the design of the map in that area is not yet final maybe the map in that area could change to the modern borders in an event after the 1362 flood

If the game starts before 1362 that is
 
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Johan, you spoke about PU integration and there being no Junior or Senior Partners. However, how does the game choose which country to inherit the lands, and which country gets integrated if there is no Junior or Senior Partner?
 
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Yes.

Fixed now, thanks for feedback.

I am not aware if this has been addressed under this thread already, but the autocephalous patriarchate in Bulgaria was based in Tarnovo/Tarnovgrad (today Veliko Tarnovo) which was the capital of the Second Bulgarian Tsardom, not in Sofia. Provided are several sources that bares mention of the Tarnovo patriarchate/patriarchs:
This has indeed been addressed
 
Will Nepalese minor also have confederacy like the baisse rajya((22 principalities) and chaubise rajya(24 principalities) .It would be great if the Himalayas get some flavor .They almost always get overlooked in paradox games even having weird and incorrect borders.
 
It looks like part of Basel is switched with Neuchatel, as Basel is including the city of Neuchatel and bordering its namesake lake, whereas Neuchatel is placed in the Jura, which was a long-time holding of the bishops of Basel.
 
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but they looks so nice when they wave in the game
Will there be triangular flags for the countries having so like the maratha empire,sikh empire and the nepalese minors.Trianguar flags were prominent especially among the hindu kingdoms but were slowly displaced by modern rectangular flags .Today only Nepal retains the triangular flag.
 
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