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Tinto Talks #12 - 15th of May

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, where we delve into the details of the most top-secret project ever made.

This week we talk about something that is rather new to our GSG, and that is the concept of international organizations. Now this may sound like an anachronistic term, and when you read further in this Tinto Talks, you’ll go “but you already have this in previous games”. Yes, we did have some hard-coded systems in previous games, like the Holy Roman Empire, but what we have here in Project Caesar is a completely dynamic system, 100% scriptable and extendable for modders, which allows for many of these, and with far more flavor.

What is an international organization? Well, at its heart is a group of countries that share some common things, and then quite a few attributes that can be defined for them. The instruction file right now is 140 lines long, and it will keep growing.

Some examples of things that an IO can have are the following.
  • If it has a leader or not, and if the leader is a character or a country.
  • If it's unique or there can be multiples of it.
  • If locations can be owned by it or not.
  • Member benefits or penalties.
  • Laws and Policies it can have.
  • Special statuses inside the organization
  • How members will behave during wars
  • And dozens more unique attributes.
Membership in some of these can take a diplomatic relations slot.

As we continue our development of this game, we keep adding more of these, adding more unique flavor to the game.

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We have “control-groups” like every PDS game has had since EU1, and Stellaris added icons for quick selects… The one for Project Caesar can be pretty much anything in the game, and if you start as a member of an organization, you get a control group for it from the start.

Common Organizations
Let's take a look at some of the generic ones, some of these have been hard-coded systems in previous GSGs, and these are not unique organizations in a campaign, but can exist in multiple instances.
Coalitions
These can be created, with a country as a target, when the target has an aggressive expansion beyond a certain threshold.
Unions
This is a sort of defensive alliance between countries that share the same ruler. They may or may not have different levels of integration.

There are a few others like this, including defensive leagues and tribal federations.


Religious Organizations

Catholic Church
Every country in the world that is part of the Catholic faith is a part of this organization. They have issues that the cardinals vote on, and being a member has implications and restrictions. Of course, this has the added benefit of having Catholic pops in Catholic countries paying a tithe to the Church, which eventually finds its way into the Papacy.

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One reason to go Lutheran?

Crusades & Jihads
These are temporary international organizations that will be created when a Crusade or Jihad is called. They have a target set and act like an alliance against that country.

Autocephalous Patriarchates
Meaning self-headed, an Autocephalous Patriarchate is a metropolitan bishop in the Eastern Christian confessions which acts independently and does not depend on or answer to any other hierarchically superior church authority. The different patriarchates then have their own synods of bishops to decide upon anything affecting their own religious jurisdiction.


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WiP grahics etc.

There are many of these, for Orthodox, Miaphysite, and other Eastern Christian confessions.

There are many more, some other religions have a central organization, and others have fragmented ones.


Specific Organization
There are also a fair amount of completely unique and flavorful organizations.

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What's this then?

Tatar Yoke
The Tatar Yoke consists of various principalities of Eastern Europe that are subject to Tatar Rule following their invasion in the 13th century. The most prominent of rulers is awarded the title of Grand Prince, and is tasked with collecting tribute from the other tributaries on behalf of the Golden Horde Khan.

Middle Kingdom
The Middle Kingdom is the meaning of China and has been considered the cultural center of East Asia since Antiquity.

This organization is led by the Huángdì, the Emperor of China, who has a number of Fēng Chén, akin to vassals or tributaries, that can be promoted to Celestial Governors, equivalent to the Secretariats that the Yuán dynasty used in the administrative organization of their empire. Its members have a unique societal value, Sinicized vs Unsinicized, and there’s a Tribute system that determines how much Celestial Authority the Huángdì gets, which is used to enforce Laws and Decrees.

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The Tribute system is a system where the Huángdì sends gold to the other nations in the Middle Kingdom, depending on their size.

Holy Roman Empire
The glory of the ancient Roman Empire lives in the memory of all in Europe, Charlemagne was crowned Roman Emperor, but it was not until the coronation of Otto the Great that the current Holy Roman Empire was born, once again recovering the ambitions of a revived and unified European Empire.

This organization, of course led by an Emperor, has different statuses for countries like secular and religious electors, secular princes, free cities, and imperial prelates. It has laws that impact the organization and its members, the most important at the early game being the Golden Bull, which is a must to get approved in order to further develop the institutions of the Empire.

There are others in the game at the moment, like the Shogunate, the High Kingship of Ireland, and many more, as the system is very flexible to use.

Next week we will talk about what Religions we have in the game.
 
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And yet the catalyst for Luther to go and start his little thing was Albert of Brandenburg, Archbishop of Mainz (i.e. Luther's Archbishop), who spent large sums on art, fine clothing and buildings, which he funded through the sale of indulgences.
So no, money for the church didn't all just go directly to the Papal State.
It's been what I'm saying: we need the whole hierarchy. Diocese ran by bishops, vassals of archbishops, sometimes vassals of patriarchs, all vassals of the Pope (maybe IO instead of vassal? Might make more sense that way so that each bishop/archbishop/primate/patriarch can have easy reorganization of their structures as the borders of the corresponding countries change). Use an IO to represent the territory of each diocese, landless bishopric titles to own each of them (or landed; prince-bishops are still bishops), and then just funnel the money upward from there. All those bishops/archbishops/patriarchs/Pope can then build churches and the like anywhere they want in their territory, with a preference towards the specific diocese they control.

Day one mod, from me. Been looking to do this sorta thing in one of these Paradox games for years now but CK2 didn't allow it, CK3 absolutely neutered the idea, and like hell if it'd ever work in EU4 in a way that isn't pulling teeth. It's finally possible in PC; like hell if I don't get on that immediately.

I've got the name for it ready already: "Ecclesiastical Hierarchy"
 
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What do they even spend all this income on?

I would have expected the tithe to go to some abstract church funds that could be spent on different things like building churches, funding universities, charity, crusades, funding bishoprics or siphoned to the Papal States to advance their worldly ambitions - each option upsetting someone else, leading to conflicts from antipopes to reformation.

But in the screenshots it looks like it just goes directly to the Papal States and gives them a surplus of over 170 gold which seems crazy?
Perhaps buildings like churches would be invested by Paple State directly?
 
Croatian borders (albeit within the Hungarian crown) seem to be a little too small - especially the Slavonian part seems missing of Croatian crownlands - and part of the Croatian sabor.
Slavonia was a completely separate entity from Croatia. The the two banates did share the same appointed Ban quite a few times though, especially in this time period, that much is correct.

I agree that Slavonia needs to be represented though. If one of Hungary's subdivisions with certain status is already a starter tag (Croatia), then the same should apply to the other subdivisions that had similar status too.

On another not, the map you attached incorrectly includes Valkó, Pozsega and Verőce counties (and even part of Baranya county) in this arbitrarily combined Croatia+Slavonia.
 
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yeah, we have been trying to figure out a better name for this for the last 2.5 years we've had the system.
If you are still wanting to rename it, you should give it a good-old, euro-centric, latin name with a lot of weight.
Like Agenda. ("Things that ought to be done.")
Or Societas.

Who wouldn't want to be part of an Agenda?!
"The Catholic Agenda"! Poetry!

Disclaimer: This naming suggestion was prompted by Ludi et Historia.

Edit: Sleeping about it, I think Agenda does indeed make the most sense.
"The Agenda of Catholicism" is no alliance or union, but at a very basic level it is a set of rules being superimposed on the members: A set of "things that ought to be done", right?! Same as a crusade, a tributary system, a personal union: Sets of rules being superimposed on the members. Rules that can change. Rules that have a goal in mind. An Agenda.

Plus it just sounds amazing!
I can't repeat it often enough, haha.
 
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They get their celestial authority by showing how much money they can waste on their tributaries.
Please do not use the idea of desktop games to create these regional organizations
In history, the Chinese Empire's desire for authority did exist, but it was reflected by obtaining items from exotic cultures.

In order to obtain these exotic items, the Chinese Empire would set a very low purchase price for these items and pay high priced items in exchange. However, these high priced items did not have much value in the Chinese region, but could be sold at a high price within the tribute country.

For example, when a Southeast Asian country tribute one ton of pepper to the Ming Dynasty, the Ming Dynasty would price these peppers at 6.25 wen per kilogram for acceptance, and then sell them in the domestic market at a price of 1000 wen per kilogram!

When giving back 1000 pieces of porcelain from Southeast Asian countries, the Ming Dynasty would declare that the price of each porcelain is 6250 wen! But in reality, when it comes to market sales, a high-quality porcelain is only priced at 300 wen!
 
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It can be seen that the most suitable tribute mechanism is actually the Chinese Empire in the Jade Dragon.
Tribute states offer a variety of items, including money, handicrafts, and population, to the emperor to obtain his favor, and the emperor will also have his own preferences and dislikes. Therefore, the tribute mechanism cannot be settled with money, which is too simplistic.
 
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Why is your assumption the absence of non-vanity advantages to the Chinese system, which we know very little about?
Probably because that it's a common sense under ther perspective general collective rationality.

That guy was offensive because that they took Johan's joke seriously. This misunderstanding is common in areas like forums where there is insufficient exchange of information.

EDIT: I guess that Johan was joking about some AI behaviors in test result: perhaps in some test run, Yuan AI just collected a lot of money and then wasted them all.
 
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1. If I understood right, a player can't create their custom IO in-game, but they can easily mod one. What is the design decision behind this?

2. Can a player create a mod which consists of a custom IO mid-game?, or will the game break? as custom IOs may be very situational and gamesave-unique.

3. Wouldn't it be counterproductive, in a multiplayer game, roleplay-wise, not letting players create their own IO/"factions"? as, in this case, modding one into the game couldn't be an option, specially mid-game.

4. Since a lot of us will be modding our own IOs, will players still be able to get achievements with mods?
 
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1. If I understood right, a player can't create their custom IO in-game, but they can easily mod one. What is the design decision behind this?
The same one that allows players to create their own buildings through mods but not create them in the game. I'm not sure of what you're asking here since it really isn't even a 'design decision'.
 
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In Sinicized vs Unsinicized does it means if you lets say go full S your Mongolian culture transfer to Han or however you call it while if you go full U you pretty much stay Mongol Altaic?

Also for a bit of context about my question in the case of culture transfer I mean full Sinocized = Mongol Han (Not Sino-Altaic) while full Unsinocized Mongol Altaic.
We have no idea whether this "Sinicized" is limited to culture or not. Johan has said that the Confucianism works completely differently in PjCsr, so this Sinicized might be a kind of rulingship, including confucianism (hope that it's a kind of ideology or government reform), language (what "culture" refered to in PDS games) and many things like that. It's a trait of subjects, so it might have something to do with this Hua–Yi distinction.
 
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@Johan I don't think this has been answered (apologies for pinking you if it has!), but I was wondering with Personal Unions being an International Organisation, and only via greater centralisation of the IO can the PU be integrated, what if you have multiple PUs? Can you create separate IOs?

For example, if I am the King of England, Scotland and also the Duke of Tuscany, I might want to bring Scotland and England into real union, but leave Tuscany out because it doesn't make geopolitical sense to unite with Tuscany like that. Can we do that or do we need to unite all of our PUs or none at all?
 
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Ok, I am super pumped about a very minor detail. But I think it deserves to be mentioned even though it is so small. Squeezed between Milan, the Montferrat and the Alps, I can see a tag abbreviated as Can., which I assume stands for Canavese, which is the area I'm from.

During the time frame of the game it took place one of the most significant historical events for the area. The time frame is also more or less the same of the much more famous Ciompi Revolt in Florence. I'm talking about the Tuchini revolt, in which the local communities rose against local nobles and even showed the ability to involve higher rank nobles into settling disputes (both Savoy and Milan had to intervene).

Nobles in Canavese inherited their possessions in a weird way that did not concentrate everything to the first male born, but rather fractured titles and lands into very small pieces that were often shared among several of them. You could for example have several Counts of Castellamonte at the same time. This resulted in relatively poor nobles, unable and unwilling to lift fedual obbligations that at the time were being removed in other areas around. The local population thus organised, appealed to higher ranked nobles and finally, starting from the small mountain village of Brosso (nice iron mines there!), revolted.

Today, this event is remembered every year in the Ivrea carnival, in which people have three days of fake battle between paesants and nobles throwing oranges at eachother.

I know it is a suuuper minor event, but it would be so cool if there was even just an event mentioning it and allowing Canavese to switch to a Paesant Republic.

At the moment I'm unable to find any good source in english about the event, but there is a reasonable amount of scholarship in italian about it, and if needed I can provide references and/or help with translation!
 
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are finno ugric peoples except for estonia / finland / karelia appear at all? in eu4 there were none like they somehow all assimilated into slavs. there should atleast be some of their nations and if not that you should be able to make them maybe by some kind of expulsion of peoples
 
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In a paradox world where more and more things are getting modelled on a very detailed level, why do you still planning on having "diplo relation slots"? In vic3 you found a (imo) good solution using diplo capacity, are there thoughts of implementing something comparable here?
 
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In a paradox world where more and more things are getting modelled on a very detailed level, why do you still planning on having "diplo relation slots"? In vic3 you found a (imo) good solution using diplo capacity, are there thoughts of implementing something comparable here?
There was a separate thread about this. They hadn't decided between slots or capacity yet. But they are currently leaning to capacity as it allows more granularity (as long as they don't end up with "3.697 capacity" required [lots of decimal places make it look bad] )