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Tinto Talks #12 - 15th of May

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, where we delve into the details of the most top-secret project ever made.

This week we talk about something that is rather new to our GSG, and that is the concept of international organizations. Now this may sound like an anachronistic term, and when you read further in this Tinto Talks, you’ll go “but you already have this in previous games”. Yes, we did have some hard-coded systems in previous games, like the Holy Roman Empire, but what we have here in Project Caesar is a completely dynamic system, 100% scriptable and extendable for modders, which allows for many of these, and with far more flavor.

What is an international organization? Well, at its heart is a group of countries that share some common things, and then quite a few attributes that can be defined for them. The instruction file right now is 140 lines long, and it will keep growing.

Some examples of things that an IO can have are the following.
  • If it has a leader or not, and if the leader is a character or a country.
  • If it's unique or there can be multiples of it.
  • If locations can be owned by it or not.
  • Member benefits or penalties.
  • Laws and Policies it can have.
  • Special statuses inside the organization
  • How members will behave during wars
  • And dozens more unique attributes.
Membership in some of these can take a diplomatic relations slot.

As we continue our development of this game, we keep adding more of these, adding more unique flavor to the game.

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We have “control-groups” like every PDS game has had since EU1, and Stellaris added icons for quick selects… The one for Project Caesar can be pretty much anything in the game, and if you start as a member of an organization, you get a control group for it from the start.

Common Organizations
Let's take a look at some of the generic ones, some of these have been hard-coded systems in previous GSGs, and these are not unique organizations in a campaign, but can exist in multiple instances.
Coalitions
These can be created, with a country as a target, when the target has an aggressive expansion beyond a certain threshold.
Unions
This is a sort of defensive alliance between countries that share the same ruler. They may or may not have different levels of integration.

There are a few others like this, including defensive leagues and tribal federations.


Religious Organizations

Catholic Church
Every country in the world that is part of the Catholic faith is a part of this organization. They have issues that the cardinals vote on, and being a member has implications and restrictions. Of course, this has the added benefit of having Catholic pops in Catholic countries paying a tithe to the Church, which eventually finds its way into the Papacy.

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One reason to go Lutheran?

Crusades & Jihads
These are temporary international organizations that will be created when a Crusade or Jihad is called. They have a target set and act like an alliance against that country.

Autocephalous Patriarchates
Meaning self-headed, an Autocephalous Patriarchate is a metropolitan bishop in the Eastern Christian confessions which acts independently and does not depend on or answer to any other hierarchically superior church authority. The different patriarchates then have their own synods of bishops to decide upon anything affecting their own religious jurisdiction.


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WiP grahics etc.

There are many of these, for Orthodox, Miaphysite, and other Eastern Christian confessions.

There are many more, some other religions have a central organization, and others have fragmented ones.


Specific Organization
There are also a fair amount of completely unique and flavorful organizations.

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What's this then?

Tatar Yoke
The Tatar Yoke consists of various principalities of Eastern Europe that are subject to Tatar Rule following their invasion in the 13th century. The most prominent of rulers is awarded the title of Grand Prince, and is tasked with collecting tribute from the other tributaries on behalf of the Golden Horde Khan.

Middle Kingdom
The Middle Kingdom is the meaning of China and has been considered the cultural center of East Asia since Antiquity.

This organization is led by the Huángdì, the Emperor of China, who has a number of Fēng Chén, akin to vassals or tributaries, that can be promoted to Celestial Governors, equivalent to the Secretariats that the Yuán dynasty used in the administrative organization of their empire. Its members have a unique societal value, Sinicized vs Unsinicized, and there’s a Tribute system that determines how much Celestial Authority the Huángdì gets, which is used to enforce Laws and Decrees.

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The Tribute system is a system where the Huángdì sends gold to the other nations in the Middle Kingdom, depending on their size.

Holy Roman Empire
The glory of the ancient Roman Empire lives in the memory of all in Europe, Charlemagne was crowned Roman Emperor, but it was not until the coronation of Otto the Great that the current Holy Roman Empire was born, once again recovering the ambitions of a revived and unified European Empire.

This organization, of course led by an Emperor, has different statuses for countries like secular and religious electors, secular princes, free cities, and imperial prelates. It has laws that impact the organization and its members, the most important at the early game being the Golden Bull, which is a must to get approved in order to further develop the institutions of the Empire.

There are others in the game at the moment, like the Shogunate, the High Kingship of Ireland, and many more, as the system is very flexible to use.

Next week we will talk about what Religions we have in the game.
 
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Croatian borders (albeit within the Hungarian crown) seem to be a little too small - especially the Slavonian part seems missing of Croatian crownlands - and part of the Croatian sabor.

Drava is one of the oldest borders in Europe (in this case between Hunfgary and Croatia)
You may be interested in this:
Ban of Slavonia

According to this, we may see a Hungarian Slavonia soon in the upcoming ck3 1178 dlc, which would be much earlier than PjCsr.
 
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I feel like Hungary is way too centralised. After all, Transylvania was quite autonomous at this point in time. Is this a matter of balance, perhaps?
Remained WIP for a planned DLC (x

Well, considering that we players always forget how many contents are prepared in 1.0 release, it’s fair to utilize this so called “long tail” (if my memory does not cheat me) things to manage for a longer development cycle.

BTW, France, HRE and Poland are so fragmented, that makes those one big piece countries (Iberian, English, Hungarian) look like starving Mongols……
 
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A lot of AI is still hardcoded for performance reasons,.
Have u guys tried to train any generative AI for game? I do not know this much, but I think that it might be a good way to get a template to design hardcoded behaving patterns for AI…?

Considering that PjCsr would probably be a game developed from 2026 to 2036, it might be suitable to remain some space for some potential radical move - like what u did to Victoria: Revolutions and CK2. XD

You have already done this isn’t it? Pops, IOs and 30k locations, the development might be based on the expected performance of Intel products in 2026 zzz

Well…… generally it needs more reflexive control over the process I think, or it might be a disaster like csl2 - its minimum configuration requirement is a thing other than our era for now.
 
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I wonder how that would work, since Catholic patriarchs are not autocephalous.

I know they aren't autocephalous but the dynamism within the Catholic religion would create for some really fun possbile mechanics, with the patriarch of Aquilea playing such an important role as a parralell power to the pope in Rome (on top of the antipopes) as well as their ongoing recognition between the patriarch of grado/venice while the Partriarchs of Jerusalem (in exile in cyprus at the start of the game), Antioch (in exile in Rome at the start of the game) and Alexandria which became a somewhat titular role were constantly a constant source of, lets crusade here to get our land back in the holy land, is the pope worth his title and various inter-bishop fun.

As well as this the Patriach of Lisbon was important in their role in establishing the church in the new world as well as the possibility for christian patriarchs being established abroad on very special occasions (like the west indies and east indies)

Basically I just hope its included somehow, if you're paying 200g to the pope in papal tithes you better have some alternatives to buddy up to and legitimise alternative investitures to love and have as your pet bishop.

As well as this a lot of these patriarchs are posing as valid alternatives to power to the orthodox patriarchs in some of the key areas where orthodoxy is far more prominent, they could I guess theoretically be involved in some kind of mend the schism fun alternate history path

In short MORE PATRIARCHS MORE FUN
 
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I know they aren't autocephalous but the dynamism within the Catholic religion would create for some really fun possbile mechanics, with the patriarch of Aquilea playing such an important role as a parralell power to the pope in Rome (on top of the antipopes) as well as their ongoing recognition between the patriarch of grado/venice while the Partriarchs of Jerusalem (in exile in cyprus at the start of the game), Antioch (in exile in Rome at the start of the game) and Alexandria which became a somewhat titular role were constantly a constant source of, lets crusade here to get our land back in the holy land, is the pope worth his title and various inter-bishop fun.

As well as this the Patriach of Lisbon was important in their role in establishing the church in the new world as well as the possibility for christian patriarchs being established abroad on very special occasions (like the west indies and east indies)

Basically I just hope its included somehow, if you're paying 200g to the pope in papal tithes you better have some alternatives to buddy up to and legitimise alternative investitures to love and have as your pet bishop.

As well as this a lot of these patriarchs are posing as valid alternatives to power to the orthodox patriarchs in some of the key areas where orthodoxy is far more prominent, they could I guess theoretically be involved in some kind of mend the schism fun alternate history path

In short MORE PATRIARCHS MORE FUN
I feel like this is something that'll have to come from a mod, rather than something that'll be in the base game.

Not to say I'm not totally willing to make that mod (as per earlier discussions in this thread), but it'd need a bit more complexity than just copying the autocephalous patriarch system that we saw in this TT as well (which itself needs some work; I've got complaints there too).
 
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Can this mean a possibility of for example Knightly orders having holdings or influence in certain locations providing certain modifiers?
 
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What's this then?

Tatar Yoke
The Tatar Yoke consists of various principalities of Eastern Europe that are subject to Tatar Rule following their invasion in the 13th century. The most prominent of rulers is awarded the title of Grand Prince, and is tasked with collecting tribute from the other tributaries on behalf of the Golden Horde Khan.
Why only half of russian states are part of Tatar yoke? Prince of Nizhny Novgorod was elected by Uzbeg Khan in 1341. I think they had control even before that.
 
Hi Johan, why is the Bulgarian autocephalous Patriarchate based in Sofia? Historically it was based in the capital of Tarnovo between 1235, when it was confirmed as a Patriarchate and 1393 when after the siege of Tarnovo it was disbanded. Fun fact, the defense of this siege was led not by the Tsar but by patriarch Evtimiy. I hope there is a place or two for some flavored events around that
 
Hey did you guys combine the Sundgau and Mulhouse area under "Austria"? Sundgow with its seat in Ferrette used to be part of the Habsburg territory, but Mulhouse was a free city at that time. I understand that you can't put EVERY possible entity, but the dynamics of the region were not insignificant. I have a map at home from the 1500s, and it clearly shows Sundgow with Mulhouse as a separate entity. Mulhouse would later become a Swiss exclave, so showing it as a separate tag/location would be interesting.
Also, are we going to see splits between cities and the countryside creating a political division, particularly when the reformation comes along? I'm thinking of, for example, the split between Baselstadt and Baselland.

Finally, how tall are you expecting people to be able to play? Single location possible?

You guessed it, I'm intimately familiar with the region. I grew up there. Awesome stuff. Looking forward for more.
 
While non-human players are called AI, they are not 'really' intelligent, they are just programmed to do certain things, whether it's code in the game or scripted AI mods.
A lot of AI behavior in these games works by assessing the best choices to make, e.g. what is the best way to spend my money, which is the best building to build, where do I siege first, what do I colonize first, who do I ally with, etc.
A lot of this can be exposed in script so modders can fine tune the AI's preferences (and make it more aggressive for example), but when it comes to things like moving your armies around, I'd imagine the code can get very complicated and it wouldn't make sense to make that scriptable.

Johan's response means it's likely that most things that you would interpret as the AI being more or less intelligent (like its tactical ability in warfare) will be hardcoded.
In EU4 you besiege Istanbul and the Ottoman army passes by and reconquers a fort in Moldova or Bulgaria... while you besiege its capital!

I have never seen AI take good advantage of state edicts, such as manpower, etc.
The barbarian AI in AOE2 is incredible the decisions it makes.
 
yeah, we have been trying to figure out a better name for this for the last 2.5 years we've had the system.

Hi,

Just adding my two cents here but maybe "a polity" is a term broad enough and it can encompass a lot of the differents types of those IO (HRE, coalition, trade league,...) while being still usable if in the future someone being either modders/paradox staff wants to implement the mechanics on national level (civil war factions for example).
 
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Disappointed that there's no County of Pallars Sobirà, I can't find English-language sources but if there's someone who speaks Catalan on the team there's a couple that I could see referenced on the Catalan Wikipedia article, and I've seen it in multiple maps of the time period, it was bigger than Andorra so I would have expected to see it lol
I can't post links in this post either but I thought it would be good to mention
 
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One reason to go Lutheran?
What do they even spend all this income on?

I would have expected the tithe to go to some abstract church funds that could be spent on different things like building churches, funding universities, charity, crusades, funding bishoprics or siphoned to the Papal States to advance their worldly ambitions - each option upsetting someone else, leading to conflicts from antipopes to reformation.

But in the screenshots it looks like it just goes directly to the Papal States and gives them a surplus of over 170 gold which seems crazy?
 
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Welcome to history
And yet the catalyst for Luther to go and start his little thing was Albert of Brandenburg, Archbishop of Mainz (i.e. Luther's Archbishop), who spent large sums on art, fine clothing and buildings, which he funded through the sale of indulgences.
So no, money for the church didn't all just go directly to the Papal State.
 
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Is there an option for the "Tartar Yoke" Russians to make a great stand on the Ugra River if the Tartars ever lose enough power/influence to enforce their tributary regime?

Different levels of integration for unions are fine. And when someone became ruler of a richer nation, they might have made that nation the centre of their administration (so, for instance, England should arguably de facto be the senior partner of Scotland, the Netherlands, and Hanover should things go historically, despite in all three cases the ruler having originally come from said junior partner). That said, unions being limited to defencive alliances is kind of undervaluing what a union was. The monarch was head of both countries. If he declared war on someone, all his domains were at war with them. That and not all personal unions were really "equals" per se. In fact, it was arguably more common for them to not be (and certainly, over time, the monarch would tend to spend more time in one or the other as his home base).
 
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