• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Tinto Talks #12 - 15th of May

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, where we delve into the details of the most top-secret project ever made.

This week we talk about something that is rather new to our GSG, and that is the concept of international organizations. Now this may sound like an anachronistic term, and when you read further in this Tinto Talks, you’ll go “but you already have this in previous games”. Yes, we did have some hard-coded systems in previous games, like the Holy Roman Empire, but what we have here in Project Caesar is a completely dynamic system, 100% scriptable and extendable for modders, which allows for many of these, and with far more flavor.

What is an international organization? Well, at its heart is a group of countries that share some common things, and then quite a few attributes that can be defined for them. The instruction file right now is 140 lines long, and it will keep growing.

Some examples of things that an IO can have are the following.
  • If it has a leader or not, and if the leader is a character or a country.
  • If it's unique or there can be multiples of it.
  • If locations can be owned by it or not.
  • Member benefits or penalties.
  • Laws and Policies it can have.
  • Special statuses inside the organization
  • How members will behave during wars
  • And dozens more unique attributes.
Membership in some of these can take a diplomatic relations slot.

As we continue our development of this game, we keep adding more of these, adding more unique flavor to the game.

RZigoFT8pivs4RbsNFtBQGqaQMSB-NwC6Id9CgapPNKmxBGCqYjPrTK3TOWV2gHhSMNqWN8LmoatGHIChBBCxeV3T8wpOebRQqaXQ__zGeVTv6RXBXjvW0wVDL1ts4gwf3uw94JpH6PvJ8Jp54kpSwk

We have “control-groups” like every PDS game has had since EU1, and Stellaris added icons for quick selects… The one for Project Caesar can be pretty much anything in the game, and if you start as a member of an organization, you get a control group for it from the start.

Common Organizations
Let's take a look at some of the generic ones, some of these have been hard-coded systems in previous GSGs, and these are not unique organizations in a campaign, but can exist in multiple instances.
Coalitions
These can be created, with a country as a target, when the target has an aggressive expansion beyond a certain threshold.
Unions
This is a sort of defensive alliance between countries that share the same ruler. They may or may not have different levels of integration.

There are a few others like this, including defensive leagues and tribal federations.


Religious Organizations

Catholic Church
Every country in the world that is part of the Catholic faith is a part of this organization. They have issues that the cardinals vote on, and being a member has implications and restrictions. Of course, this has the added benefit of having Catholic pops in Catholic countries paying a tithe to the Church, which eventually finds its way into the Papacy.

K0EjskNKOL2OwVz04x2t5xOVyCmK0mzk8t8XeFwsSIy7rESL-CEGq8qG65XNw_FfRE5PKstXyKTtGOQFNveRFg5t-vcmzLLha4Kp9pkmODaOrvxKaq-IGqvmttz1uov0oP0XcPyUE2ZsLgjGOw3VvZM

One reason to go Lutheran?

Crusades & Jihads
These are temporary international organizations that will be created when a Crusade or Jihad is called. They have a target set and act like an alliance against that country.

Autocephalous Patriarchates
Meaning self-headed, an Autocephalous Patriarchate is a metropolitan bishop in the Eastern Christian confessions which acts independently and does not depend on or answer to any other hierarchically superior church authority. The different patriarchates then have their own synods of bishops to decide upon anything affecting their own religious jurisdiction.


kEMRia14Xe6l1V_1Y5CLGGuDbeIUGNi4SB5_wOBGkh0mTxM5Rcth9favURImtVsKOJcfpIA2a-MeoviF3s9vpQ4RKDRKhKUFaW0M18b5dbuMC09H4egQ2b3PX90r4he4fb19L4y4BYYgt7kK0va7TpA

WiP grahics etc.

There are many of these, for Orthodox, Miaphysite, and other Eastern Christian confessions.

There are many more, some other religions have a central organization, and others have fragmented ones.


Specific Organization
There are also a fair amount of completely unique and flavorful organizations.

4mf0wMwbK1PDnyD7thtnFC0Ls_LSxfxIFgj23kgR_C8dV4ZP8Zjt6KYKvj2HYU-7Ly8VfcPe_pX-bllJuV_4TM9I3soioW4WjLiF7Lg5Yt4ck9py5qUSgygF7eN7B2VCqK0PEdpUTnQUKg9ywFWgcp0

What's this then?

Tatar Yoke
The Tatar Yoke consists of various principalities of Eastern Europe that are subject to Tatar Rule following their invasion in the 13th century. The most prominent of rulers is awarded the title of Grand Prince, and is tasked with collecting tribute from the other tributaries on behalf of the Golden Horde Khan.

Middle Kingdom
The Middle Kingdom is the meaning of China and has been considered the cultural center of East Asia since Antiquity.

This organization is led by the Huángdì, the Emperor of China, who has a number of Fēng Chén, akin to vassals or tributaries, that can be promoted to Celestial Governors, equivalent to the Secretariats that the Yuán dynasty used in the administrative organization of their empire. Its members have a unique societal value, Sinicized vs Unsinicized, and there’s a Tribute system that determines how much Celestial Authority the Huángdì gets, which is used to enforce Laws and Decrees.

4ezK_ZgMOatMwil2PRhpl4s_ooVQwO_5N9yk9iOa2Rkm3vCaDjiSOz7PFIbTZg6wsKbsePwO8qnJpY9cJBV74_0MSrK_Nl_p4yUIrgh42-76Y0o7k8VWDhoSgHy0HxTnpZ-xZR9BUtd1FQ-LKfv9kL4

The Tribute system is a system where the Huángdì sends gold to the other nations in the Middle Kingdom, depending on their size.

Holy Roman Empire
The glory of the ancient Roman Empire lives in the memory of all in Europe, Charlemagne was crowned Roman Emperor, but it was not until the coronation of Otto the Great that the current Holy Roman Empire was born, once again recovering the ambitions of a revived and unified European Empire.

This organization, of course led by an Emperor, has different statuses for countries like secular and religious electors, secular princes, free cities, and imperial prelates. It has laws that impact the organization and its members, the most important at the early game being the Golden Bull, which is a must to get approved in order to further develop the institutions of the Empire.

There are others in the game at the moment, like the Shogunate, the High Kingship of Ireland, and many more, as the system is very flexible to use.

Next week we will talk about what Religions we have in the game.
 
  • 482Love
  • 179Like
  • 12
  • 12
  • 1Haha
Reactions:
Will indigenous things like the Haudenosaunee also be an example of an international organisation? When will we hear more about the Americas?
Agreed, I would like to hear more about indigenous content/gameplay. These parts of the world in EU4 and other Paradox GSGs are often treated as an afterthought despite a certain subsection of the community quite enjoying them.
 
  • 3Like
Reactions:
Autocephalous Patriarchates
Meaning self-headed, an Autocephalous Patriarchate is a metropolitan bishop in the Eastern Christian confessions which acts independently and does not depend on or answer to any other hierarchically superior church authority. The different patriarchates then have their own synods of bishops to decide upon anything affecting their own religious jurisdiction.

Will we get to see something similar for the catholic patriarchs? I would love to see a game finally accept that catholics have patriarchs too :)
 
Yes.

Fixed now, thanks for feedback.
How will it work for the patriarchates when the countries they belong to cease to exist. So when the ottomans conquer constantinople and byzantium/east rome cease to exist. In real the patriarchate continues to exist until today where it is still located in Istanbul. And the ottomans even interacted with the patriarchate as an official state entity.
And what about countries that change formally religion but the pops are in majority still orthodox. Like albania whos nobles changed to catholicism but the pops remained orthodox, will they be part of the patriarchate of constantinople?
 
A lot of AI is still hardcoded for performance reasons,.
Understandable, thank you for the response. Then, I hope that there will be a good way to incorporate community feedback on this matter.
I think the problems present in some of the calculations in EU4 (some of these have been fixed over the years, but a quite a few are still present) are a good indicator that this can be quite helpful. For example, reverse engineering the AI combat evaluation proved to be quite enlightening.
Building a new game from the ground up is obviously also very beneficial in this regard.
So there is no hard coded maximum price?

Does that mean there are fixed-point numbers of verying lenth or do we still get overflowing prices?
From the Tinto Talk on trade one can easily infer that the maximal price is calculated as (base price)/(price stability). It seems reasonable that price stability is at least modifiable in full percent units, i.e. the highest maximal price achievable is likely (at least!) 100 times the base price, probably even higher. How this affects the actual target price as a function of supply and demand is unclear though (we do not know yet/ have not seen enough examples to infer, if this is calculated by affine linear interpolation or something entirely different). Therefore, setting price stability very small might not lead to desirable outcomes.
 
its the "this is worth 3.223 capacity now"

Use bigger numbers to avoid decimals. If you have 100 capacity then it's easy to scale cost.
By the way, looking at the map in the OP, I have to say I'm not a fan of the abbreviations. Very much prefer the name to be hidden if it doesn't "fit" akin to EU4.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
View attachment 1133748

the hre map would look so much cleaner without the stripes, which seem to be covering just about everything. I'm sure they're useful, but would it be possible to substitute them for some other way of conveying their info - the elegance of the map without them would be off the charts
As the map mode would be for the HRE maybe instead of hashing all the land that is considered part of the HRE we find a way to deemphasize the areas that are not considered part of the HRE. I think that might be a better way to go about it.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
I hope this is the right place for this comment. Will the Rhine region be upgraded as a trading region? And related to that, will there be a playable city of Cologne? After the Battle of Worringen in 1288, the city of Cologne was de facto independent of the archbishop - from 1475 Cologne was officially made a free imperial city. As such, Cologne was an important and powerful trading city due to e.g. the stacking law and as a Hanseatic city. For example, at the beginning of the game, the city could be an autonomous city that is subordinate to the archbishop and can fight for independence through missions. I believe that the history of the city and the region justifies a little bit more content.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
I have the same concerns of this post. Not exactly sure why, but having a dynamic system that encompasses multiple unique characteristics, isn't very fun, at least to me, imho. It takes away the "uniqueness" of many traits / cultures. It's kinda weird, I can't explain it too well myself.

I guess to me I see IO as a container for misfit toys. All of them appear to still be unique. There is nothing stating that something (attribute, rule, etc) that is a part of a 'Personal Union' needs to be part of the 'Catholic Church'. All that it appears to me is a common language that was used to define them and a container to hold them. This isn't the CK3 all religions fit in this bucket and must fit in this bucket, but a container that holds bespoke mechanics.

If I am wrong about this I hope that a Dev will correct this thinking.

Also as I see IO only as a design object I don't see why it would need an in-game name.
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
I feel like Hungary is way too centralised. After all, Transylvania was quite autonomous at this point in time. Is this a matter of balance, perhaps?
I think it's fine either way (depending on how effective bailiffs are), however there needs to be consistency. If Croatia exist as a vassal tag, then so should Slavonia, Macho, Transylvania and others too. If the others aren't separate starter tags, then Croatia shouldn't be one either.
 
  • 4
  • 3Like
Reactions:
What about more binding unions, such as Poland-Lithuania? They had separate budget and military, true - but common foreign policy. They also participated in most of wars together.
 
Northern Italy is way too unified on this map.
HRE emperor Louis of Bavaria was carving it left, right, and centre and giving it to his best friends.

Quoting from Vita Caroli (autobiography of Charles of John of Luxemburg): “While my father stayed in Trident, the following towns in Lombardy were given to him: Brescia, Bergamo, Parma, Cremona, Pavia, Reggio and Modena; also Lucca, Tuscany, with all pertaining districts and counties.”

Further reading from Chronicles of Zbraslav (bohemian chronicler): “After the King [John of Luxemburg] had spent seven months in Lombardy, coping with many affairs in Germany and France, he confided the Lombard towns to his firstborn son whom he had called from Luxembourg, and having sent the messengers in advance, he decided to leave for Regensburg.”
 
  • 5Like
Reactions:
The autocephalous Patriarchate in Bulgaria should be in Tarnovo, as it was the capital of the second Bulgarian state, the palace of the patriarch can still be seen near the Palace of the Tsar of Tsarevets in today's Veliko Tarnovo.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: