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Tinto Talks #12 - 15th of May

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, where we delve into the details of the most top-secret project ever made.

This week we talk about something that is rather new to our GSG, and that is the concept of international organizations. Now this may sound like an anachronistic term, and when you read further in this Tinto Talks, you’ll go “but you already have this in previous games”. Yes, we did have some hard-coded systems in previous games, like the Holy Roman Empire, but what we have here in Project Caesar is a completely dynamic system, 100% scriptable and extendable for modders, which allows for many of these, and with far more flavor.

What is an international organization? Well, at its heart is a group of countries that share some common things, and then quite a few attributes that can be defined for them. The instruction file right now is 140 lines long, and it will keep growing.

Some examples of things that an IO can have are the following.
  • If it has a leader or not, and if the leader is a character or a country.
  • If it's unique or there can be multiples of it.
  • If locations can be owned by it or not.
  • Member benefits or penalties.
  • Laws and Policies it can have.
  • Special statuses inside the organization
  • How members will behave during wars
  • And dozens more unique attributes.
Membership in some of these can take a diplomatic relations slot.

As we continue our development of this game, we keep adding more of these, adding more unique flavor to the game.

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We have “control-groups” like every PDS game has had since EU1, and Stellaris added icons for quick selects… The one for Project Caesar can be pretty much anything in the game, and if you start as a member of an organization, you get a control group for it from the start.

Common Organizations
Let's take a look at some of the generic ones, some of these have been hard-coded systems in previous GSGs, and these are not unique organizations in a campaign, but can exist in multiple instances.
Coalitions
These can be created, with a country as a target, when the target has an aggressive expansion beyond a certain threshold.
Unions
This is a sort of defensive alliance between countries that share the same ruler. They may or may not have different levels of integration.

There are a few others like this, including defensive leagues and tribal federations.


Religious Organizations

Catholic Church
Every country in the world that is part of the Catholic faith is a part of this organization. They have issues that the cardinals vote on, and being a member has implications and restrictions. Of course, this has the added benefit of having Catholic pops in Catholic countries paying a tithe to the Church, which eventually finds its way into the Papacy.

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One reason to go Lutheran?

Crusades & Jihads
These are temporary international organizations that will be created when a Crusade or Jihad is called. They have a target set and act like an alliance against that country.

Autocephalous Patriarchates
Meaning self-headed, an Autocephalous Patriarchate is a metropolitan bishop in the Eastern Christian confessions which acts independently and does not depend on or answer to any other hierarchically superior church authority. The different patriarchates then have their own synods of bishops to decide upon anything affecting their own religious jurisdiction.


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WiP grahics etc.

There are many of these, for Orthodox, Miaphysite, and other Eastern Christian confessions.

There are many more, some other religions have a central organization, and others have fragmented ones.


Specific Organization
There are also a fair amount of completely unique and flavorful organizations.

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What's this then?

Tatar Yoke
The Tatar Yoke consists of various principalities of Eastern Europe that are subject to Tatar Rule following their invasion in the 13th century. The most prominent of rulers is awarded the title of Grand Prince, and is tasked with collecting tribute from the other tributaries on behalf of the Golden Horde Khan.

Middle Kingdom
The Middle Kingdom is the meaning of China and has been considered the cultural center of East Asia since Antiquity.

This organization is led by the Huángdì, the Emperor of China, who has a number of Fēng Chén, akin to vassals or tributaries, that can be promoted to Celestial Governors, equivalent to the Secretariats that the Yuán dynasty used in the administrative organization of their empire. Its members have a unique societal value, Sinicized vs Unsinicized, and there’s a Tribute system that determines how much Celestial Authority the Huángdì gets, which is used to enforce Laws and Decrees.

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The Tribute system is a system where the Huángdì sends gold to the other nations in the Middle Kingdom, depending on their size.

Holy Roman Empire
The glory of the ancient Roman Empire lives in the memory of all in Europe, Charlemagne was crowned Roman Emperor, but it was not until the coronation of Otto the Great that the current Holy Roman Empire was born, once again recovering the ambitions of a revived and unified European Empire.

This organization, of course led by an Emperor, has different statuses for countries like secular and religious electors, secular princes, free cities, and imperial prelates. It has laws that impact the organization and its members, the most important at the early game being the Golden Bull, which is a must to get approved in order to further develop the institutions of the Empire.

There are others in the game at the moment, like the Shogunate, the High Kingship of Ireland, and many more, as the system is very flexible to use.

Next week we will talk about what Religions we have in the game.
 
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if a nation with a longer name gets land taken away so that they are an opm or something will their name be abbreviated and if say Dithmarschen or someone grows really big will their name no longer be abbreviated
Map labels change length dynamically like that, yes.

But countries will always have their full name shown in most places in the UI though, even if they are a ULM.
 
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Autocephalous Patriarchates
Meaning self-headed, an Autocephalous Patriarchate is a metropolitan bishop in the Eastern Christian confessions which acts independently and does not depend on or answer to any other hierarchically superior church authority. The different patriarchates then have their own synods of bishops to decide upon anything affecting their own religious jurisdiction.


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WiP grahics etc.

There are many of these, for Orthodox, Miaphysite, and other Eastern Christian confessions.

There are many more, some other religions have a central organization, and others have fragmented ones.

Two questions:
1) what are other easter christian confession, beside othodx and miaphysite? I can think only about nestorians
2) shouldn't there be TWO patriarchates of Alexandria? One for the Chalcedonian Orthodox and one for the Miaphysites. Here I only see the miaphysite one (it should be that considering that Ethiopia is the nation associated). Or is the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria not there because there is no nation subjected to it?
 
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i had a bad omen tonight... what happens if 2 countries get an equal status in an union, and both make the ruler to lead the army? :eek:

and also the question of Transylvanian vassal needs more attention :mad:
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voivode - a local ruler or governor, esp. the semi-independent rulers of Transylvania, Wallachia, or Moldavia
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Could be yes, but its unique per IO if the content designer has designed it that way.
Does that mean that vasals/states/provinces can form an IO against their ruler and afterwards (if the win the conflict) either disband the IO, stay unified as IO or unify this further into a country/nation. As an example, can after/during/before the Burgundian inheritance the Dutch states can/will form an IO that first remains an IO (federal republic) untill it unifies in a single nation?
 
On the topic of dynamic names, I'm not sure if it's feasible but perhaps the additional honorifics and titles like "Kingdom of..." or "Grand Duchy of..." could have an option to be displayed above the primary name of the country? It's always irked me how small and long it is normally with fitting a single long line of text inside of the blob that is a country.
 
Some comments regarding the Rus map. Here's a good map by late Viktor Temushev, a historical geographer from Belarus. It's from ~1380, but you can see some of the inaccuracies:

04_Rus_1380.jpg


What is the weird piece of Smolensk east of Vyazma? Is it Medyn?
Why does the whole principality of Vladimir belong to Muscovy? It was the most important part of the Yoke: whoever got the jarlig would get the lands as well, this was changed only after 1380
Why is Mologa in the wrong place? It looks like you gave Mologa itself to Yaroslavl, and marked the Novgorodian Bezhetsky Verh (taken by Moscow in late XIV century) as Mologa
Novosil wasn't part of the Yoke, but Dmitrov, Kostroma, Starodub, Kashin and Mologa were. If you're trying to represent the twin yoke where Suzdal-Nizhny Novgorod managed half of the tribute, it was formed only in 1341
Where is Chernigov? Bryansk was the capital in 1337 and the principality was on the decline at the time, but it wasn't *that* small.
 
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My CD Team has been doing some additional research for the Chinese subjects, and they think Zhū Hóu naming instead of Fēng Chén is a reasonable suggestion, so they're changing that today .
Using Zhūhóu instead of Zhū Hóu as an alternative plan is good too, considering that you have already deleted the space between Huáng and dì. For the name of a term, in grammar, deleting space within a word that's of collective meaning is kinda more proper - it's optional.
 
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Chinese vassals could indeed profit from the suzerain, but this was through tribute trade, not through the suzerain's wages. Especially in the Yuan and Ming dynasties, they were not friendly to vassals, Zhu Di simply repeatedly collected horse gunpowder from North Korea, so that the military strength of North Korea was greatly weakened, and it no longer to threaten the Ming Dynasty.
 
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So there is no hard coded maximum price?

Does that mean there are fixed-point numbers of verying lenth or do we still get overflowing prices?

in the unmodded game I think its a x50 max or so in the highest price instability atm.
 
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International Organizations are not eternal and can disappear for a variety of reasons. Some will fail as soon as there is no valid leader country, whereas others are more aspirational or cultural in nature and don't necessarily need a leader to still exist in the minds of its members.

The High Kingship of Ireland falls under the latter; membership (and therefore leadership) is limited to specific kinds of country with a capital in Ireland and it will persist as long as it has members.

So England can theoretically become the High King if it manages to jump through hoops to become a valid member beforehand, but if it doesn't then the International Organization will simply fall out of existence once all its member countries become extinct.

That said its exact features are still in development so the rules are subject to change.

Can international organisations that disappear be brought back under the right circumstances
 
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