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Tinto Talks #12 - 15th of May

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, where we delve into the details of the most top-secret project ever made.

This week we talk about something that is rather new to our GSG, and that is the concept of international organizations. Now this may sound like an anachronistic term, and when you read further in this Tinto Talks, you’ll go “but you already have this in previous games”. Yes, we did have some hard-coded systems in previous games, like the Holy Roman Empire, but what we have here in Project Caesar is a completely dynamic system, 100% scriptable and extendable for modders, which allows for many of these, and with far more flavor.

What is an international organization? Well, at its heart is a group of countries that share some common things, and then quite a few attributes that can be defined for them. The instruction file right now is 140 lines long, and it will keep growing.

Some examples of things that an IO can have are the following.
  • If it has a leader or not, and if the leader is a character or a country.
  • If it's unique or there can be multiples of it.
  • If locations can be owned by it or not.
  • Member benefits or penalties.
  • Laws and Policies it can have.
  • Special statuses inside the organization
  • How members will behave during wars
  • And dozens more unique attributes.
Membership in some of these can take a diplomatic relations slot.

As we continue our development of this game, we keep adding more of these, adding more unique flavor to the game.

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We have “control-groups” like every PDS game has had since EU1, and Stellaris added icons for quick selects… The one for Project Caesar can be pretty much anything in the game, and if you start as a member of an organization, you get a control group for it from the start.

Common Organizations
Let's take a look at some of the generic ones, some of these have been hard-coded systems in previous GSGs, and these are not unique organizations in a campaign, but can exist in multiple instances.
Coalitions
These can be created, with a country as a target, when the target has an aggressive expansion beyond a certain threshold.
Unions
This is a sort of defensive alliance between countries that share the same ruler. They may or may not have different levels of integration.

There are a few others like this, including defensive leagues and tribal federations.


Religious Organizations

Catholic Church
Every country in the world that is part of the Catholic faith is a part of this organization. They have issues that the cardinals vote on, and being a member has implications and restrictions. Of course, this has the added benefit of having Catholic pops in Catholic countries paying a tithe to the Church, which eventually finds its way into the Papacy.

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One reason to go Lutheran?

Crusades & Jihads
These are temporary international organizations that will be created when a Crusade or Jihad is called. They have a target set and act like an alliance against that country.

Autocephalous Patriarchates
Meaning self-headed, an Autocephalous Patriarchate is a metropolitan bishop in the Eastern Christian confessions which acts independently and does not depend on or answer to any other hierarchically superior church authority. The different patriarchates then have their own synods of bishops to decide upon anything affecting their own religious jurisdiction.


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WiP grahics etc.

There are many of these, for Orthodox, Miaphysite, and other Eastern Christian confessions.

There are many more, some other religions have a central organization, and others have fragmented ones.


Specific Organization
There are also a fair amount of completely unique and flavorful organizations.

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What's this then?

Tatar Yoke
The Tatar Yoke consists of various principalities of Eastern Europe that are subject to Tatar Rule following their invasion in the 13th century. The most prominent of rulers is awarded the title of Grand Prince, and is tasked with collecting tribute from the other tributaries on behalf of the Golden Horde Khan.

Middle Kingdom
The Middle Kingdom is the meaning of China and has been considered the cultural center of East Asia since Antiquity.

This organization is led by the Huángdì, the Emperor of China, who has a number of Fēng Chén, akin to vassals or tributaries, that can be promoted to Celestial Governors, equivalent to the Secretariats that the Yuán dynasty used in the administrative organization of their empire. Its members have a unique societal value, Sinicized vs Unsinicized, and there’s a Tribute system that determines how much Celestial Authority the Huángdì gets, which is used to enforce Laws and Decrees.

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The Tribute system is a system where the Huángdì sends gold to the other nations in the Middle Kingdom, depending on their size.

Holy Roman Empire
The glory of the ancient Roman Empire lives in the memory of all in Europe, Charlemagne was crowned Roman Emperor, but it was not until the coronation of Otto the Great that the current Holy Roman Empire was born, once again recovering the ambitions of a revived and unified European Empire.

This organization, of course led by an Emperor, has different statuses for countries like secular and religious electors, secular princes, free cities, and imperial prelates. It has laws that impact the organization and its members, the most important at the early game being the Golden Bull, which is a must to get approved in order to further develop the institutions of the Empire.

There are others in the game at the moment, like the Shogunate, the High Kingship of Ireland, and many more, as the system is very flexible to use.

Next week we will talk about what Religions we have in the game.
 
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International Organizations are not eternal and can disappear for a variety of reasons. Some will fail as soon as there is no valid leader country, whereas others are more aspirational or cultural in nature and don't necessarily need a leader to still exist in the minds of its members.

The High Kingship of Ireland falls under the latter; membership (and therefore leadership) is limited to specific kinds of country with a capital in Ireland and it will persist as long as it has members.

So England can theoretically become the High King if it manages to jump through hoops to become a valid member beforehand, but if it doesn't then the International Organization will simply fall out of existence once all its member countries become extinct.

That said its exact features are still in development so the rules are subject to change.
Will it be possible to ressurect dead IOs? If not the Irish thing then the others?

Let's say I invade Europe and persuade people there to convert to Islam, then the Catholic church would presumably cease to exist in the absence of Catholic tags/provinces?

Then, if through rebels or conversion another Catholic tags was to spring back to life, would they be able to ressurect the IO? Presumably also resurrect the papacy and all that?
 
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Will it be possible in Project Caesar, as a subject of a state, to pursue a completely independent policy, declare wars, and have vassals? I really want to cosplay as the British East India Company and personally, with the completely unleashed, subjugate the rajahs and trade in India, while formally remaining under the British crown.
 
yeah, we have been trying to figure out a better name for this for the last 2.5 years we've had the system.

You are using Latin for some other unrelated PDX games, so why not here? Ordo, consortio, even syndicatus would fit - and you do not need the second part really. But even if You have to "internationalis", "mundanae" or "nationum" sounds much more medieval...
 
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@Johan

Is it possible that we can see the borders of the HRE on the political map? Or at least optional? This would make it easier to see which country is in the HRE at any time, especially with so many countries.
 
Countries does not ALWAYS have a ruler.

and if its character, if that character dies, a new leader has to be picked etc..

In real life.. USA is always the leader of NATO, even though the ruler of USA has switched quite a few times since 1945
USA is not the leader of NATO, the fact that they contribute for the vast majority of the expenditures relates to influence and capability, not formal leadership.
 
International Organizations are not eternal and can disappear for a variety of reasons. Some will fail as soon as there is no valid leader country, whereas others are more aspirational or cultural in nature and don't necessarily need a leader to still exist in the minds of its members.

The High Kingship of Ireland falls under the latter; membership (and therefore leadership) is limited to specific kinds of country with a capital in Ireland and it will persist as long as it has members.

So England can theoretically become the High King if it manages to jump through hoops to become a valid member beforehand, but if it doesn't then the International Organization will simply fall out of existence once all its member countries become extinct.

That said its exact features are still in development so the rules are subject to change.
Will it also be possible to reinstate IO's after they have been dismantled?
 
"There are others in the game at the moment, like the Shogunate, the High Kingship of Ireland, and many more, as the system is very flexible to use."

Day 1 flavour for Ireland lets GOOOOO

Will there be unique units for Ireland as well like the Gallowglas infantry or light cavalry units? I am always sort of disappointed in the flavour for Ireland in your games and its a welcome edition to see some mention of it in a dev diary this early. Thanks for all your work Johan and team.
 
1. Is the number of electors secular and electors spiritual in the HRE fixed and are they tied to land?

I got the reply from my team now .


The number of both secular and ecclesiastical electors can be increased by approving further Imperial Laws. And they aren't fixed to land, which means that e.g. the Emperor might be able to replace the Electoral Palatinate of the Rhine with the Electorate of Bavaria by using Imperial Authority.
 
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This word is referred to the European feudal vassals VERY specifically. For Chinese feudalism or something like that, please consider Zhū Hóu.

My CD Team has been doing some additional research for the Chinese subjects, and they think Zhū Hóu naming instead of Fēng Chén is a reasonable suggestion, so they're changing that today .
 
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No. they are a country with some other fun special attributes
Hmm. In general I love the content of this TT, but this really surprises me. The Hanseatic League seems like the perfect case for an IO. And the Hanseatic League being called a country, really feels weird.
I understand it being a loose cooperation between cities makes it more difficult in a Nation-game, so perhaps there lies the fun speciality. But the Hanseatic League being a country sounds very weird to me.
 
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With how versatile international organisation are

Why not make it a broader Diplomatic Treaty, that would include Alliance,Garantee, Subjects for example as well with the IO mechanic? (Performace and ai?)

From my point of view, it's unclear why some relations would be IO or subjects.

What are the differences?

IO = multiple countries.
Tready = bilateral only.

And yes, our treaties are entirely new and unique as well..
 
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