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Tinto Talks #12 - 15th of May

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, where we delve into the details of the most top-secret project ever made.

This week we talk about something that is rather new to our GSG, and that is the concept of international organizations. Now this may sound like an anachronistic term, and when you read further in this Tinto Talks, you’ll go “but you already have this in previous games”. Yes, we did have some hard-coded systems in previous games, like the Holy Roman Empire, but what we have here in Project Caesar is a completely dynamic system, 100% scriptable and extendable for modders, which allows for many of these, and with far more flavor.

What is an international organization? Well, at its heart is a group of countries that share some common things, and then quite a few attributes that can be defined for them. The instruction file right now is 140 lines long, and it will keep growing.

Some examples of things that an IO can have are the following.
  • If it has a leader or not, and if the leader is a character or a country.
  • If it's unique or there can be multiples of it.
  • If locations can be owned by it or not.
  • Member benefits or penalties.
  • Laws and Policies it can have.
  • Special statuses inside the organization
  • How members will behave during wars
  • And dozens more unique attributes.
Membership in some of these can take a diplomatic relations slot.

As we continue our development of this game, we keep adding more of these, adding more unique flavor to the game.

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We have “control-groups” like every PDS game has had since EU1, and Stellaris added icons for quick selects… The one for Project Caesar can be pretty much anything in the game, and if you start as a member of an organization, you get a control group for it from the start.

Common Organizations
Let's take a look at some of the generic ones, some of these have been hard-coded systems in previous GSGs, and these are not unique organizations in a campaign, but can exist in multiple instances.
Coalitions
These can be created, with a country as a target, when the target has an aggressive expansion beyond a certain threshold.
Unions
This is a sort of defensive alliance between countries that share the same ruler. They may or may not have different levels of integration.

There are a few others like this, including defensive leagues and tribal federations.


Religious Organizations

Catholic Church
Every country in the world that is part of the Catholic faith is a part of this organization. They have issues that the cardinals vote on, and being a member has implications and restrictions. Of course, this has the added benefit of having Catholic pops in Catholic countries paying a tithe to the Church, which eventually finds its way into the Papacy.

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One reason to go Lutheran?

Crusades & Jihads
These are temporary international organizations that will be created when a Crusade or Jihad is called. They have a target set and act like an alliance against that country.

Autocephalous Patriarchates
Meaning self-headed, an Autocephalous Patriarchate is a metropolitan bishop in the Eastern Christian confessions which acts independently and does not depend on or answer to any other hierarchically superior church authority. The different patriarchates then have their own synods of bishops to decide upon anything affecting their own religious jurisdiction.


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WiP grahics etc.

There are many of these, for Orthodox, Miaphysite, and other Eastern Christian confessions.

There are many more, some other religions have a central organization, and others have fragmented ones.


Specific Organization
There are also a fair amount of completely unique and flavorful organizations.

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What's this then?

Tatar Yoke
The Tatar Yoke consists of various principalities of Eastern Europe that are subject to Tatar Rule following their invasion in the 13th century. The most prominent of rulers is awarded the title of Grand Prince, and is tasked with collecting tribute from the other tributaries on behalf of the Golden Horde Khan.

Middle Kingdom
The Middle Kingdom is the meaning of China and has been considered the cultural center of East Asia since Antiquity.

This organization is led by the Huángdì, the Emperor of China, who has a number of Fēng Chén, akin to vassals or tributaries, that can be promoted to Celestial Governors, equivalent to the Secretariats that the Yuán dynasty used in the administrative organization of their empire. Its members have a unique societal value, Sinicized vs Unsinicized, and there’s a Tribute system that determines how much Celestial Authority the Huángdì gets, which is used to enforce Laws and Decrees.

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The Tribute system is a system where the Huángdì sends gold to the other nations in the Middle Kingdom, depending on their size.

Holy Roman Empire
The glory of the ancient Roman Empire lives in the memory of all in Europe, Charlemagne was crowned Roman Emperor, but it was not until the coronation of Otto the Great that the current Holy Roman Empire was born, once again recovering the ambitions of a revived and unified European Empire.

This organization, of course led by an Emperor, has different statuses for countries like secular and religious electors, secular princes, free cities, and imperial prelates. It has laws that impact the organization and its members, the most important at the early game being the Golden Bull, which is a must to get approved in order to further develop the institutions of the Empire.

There are others in the game at the moment, like the Shogunate, the High Kingship of Ireland, and many more, as the system is very flexible to use.

Next week we will talk about what Religions we have in the game.
 
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They get their celestial authority by showing how much money they can waste on their tributaries.
This is definitely a terrible understanding. Only a few fools will spend a lot of money just to satisfy their vanity.
There is a lack of more interesting interaction between EU4's EoC and tributaries. I don't want the same thing to happen in the new game.

Overall, the number of gifts given is related to the level of the tribute country.
According to the explanation in this academic paper(Chinese):
http://qjip.tsinghuajournals.com/article/2017/2096-1545/101393D-2017-3-104.shtml
There are three levels of tribute:Closely related vassals, general tribute relationships, and only nominal tribute relationships.
Only the closest relationships can receive the most rewards, but the obligations of these countries are also the heaviest. They are often seen as the forefront of imperial defense to block the enemy.
Rights and obligations are consistent, and tributaries must bear more obligations in order to receive more rewards. The rulers of tributaries with closer relationships often have to be recognized by the Chinese emperor for their legitimacy. Sometimes they will take the initiative or be asked to provide troops to participate in the wars of the suzerain country. The relationship with the central empire determines whether the emperor will take military intervention against them.
Also, allowing tribute was also a form of "market access", and Toyotomi Hideyoshi's negotiation conditions to the Ming included the resumption of trade. Because these envoys not only give gifts to the emperor, but also can sell the goods they bring in the market.(Of course, the significance of this trade is based on the seaban policy)
 
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I have a question regarding map topography: what is the requirement for a location to be considered hills or mountains? Like is there a minimum height? Also, what are the requirement for a mountain chain to be portrayed as impassable land? @Johan
 
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There will be the possibility, for example:
- Reunify the Churches (End of the Great Eastern Schism) (And if it is possible to reunify with the other churches, Syriac, Coptic...)
- Reform the Catholic Church
 
Croatian borders (albeit within the Hungarian crown) seem to be a little too small - especially the Slavonian part seems missing of Croatian crownlands - and part of the Croatian sabor.

Drava is one of the oldest borders in Europe (in this case between Hunfgary and Croatia)
 

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Thanks for that info. A country being able to own an organization without being part of it is very interesting! (Though I think the owner should be indicated on the mapmode for clarity!) I hope we can create our own yokes if we build a steppe empire elsewhere.
That's necessary in order to make the HRE possible; the Emperor is the owner, but not necessarily a member
 
I don't know much about the Lombard League, and North Italy, but I do know it allowed Italian autonomy, and eventually independence, by around 1250. So North Italy should not be apart of the Holy Roman Empire.
 
My CD Team has been doing some additional research for the Chinese subjects, and they think Zhū Hóu naming instead of Fēng Chén is a reasonable suggestion, so they're changing that today .
We usually use the word "fān shǔ/藩属".
Why is your assumption the absence of non-vanity advantages to the Chinese system, which we know very little about?
"how much money they can waste", I don't think this is a joke. The design of the East Asian part of EU4 is still very poor until now.
Considering those bad experiences in the past, I think it's necessary to make things clear.
This sounds no different from obtaining "Mandate" currency in EU4. The only difference is that it requires spending money to maintain this relationship.
The tribute system is politically driven and not based on using money to maintain these relationships. Moreover, the game's start date in 1337 does not include the policy of "repaying guests with more gifts," which was introduced during the Ming Dynasty.
 
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If colonies successfully gain independence, will they have the option between uniting in a single country or staying independent in an International Organization? This would represent how the 13 colonies were initially organised under the Articles of Confederation (more akin to an IO) up till the Constitutional Convention of 1787. And I guess you could even model the US as an IO rather than a country in-game.

I think It depends on if there actually are 13 colonies, compared to one big colony like EU4. Unless it fragments on independence. But colonization is still a mystery.
 
Next week we will talk about what Religions we have in the game.
So minor question, are religions going to be static, or will we see more religions potentially pop up as the game progresses? Things like native religions, Protestant Sects, and the Sikh Faith? Or perhaps even custom faiths/denomyns as seen in Crusader Kings 3?
 
What kind of union does Zeeland have with Holland and Hainaut ?
 
We usually use the word "fān shǔ/藩属".
We for now have no idea on how would this work. I suggest to wait until some specialized TTs. We know too little about how would Yuan’s IO work.

I discussed with some friends earlier about the name Zhu Hou. Words above are our conclusion, but whatever Tinto picked, they are all better than Feng Chen.

For reference:
“Zhuhou” emphasizes on the agency of subects, while Fanshu emphasizes that they are vassals of the emperor. Zhuhou also implies that they are second to the emperor, but it can also exist while there’s no widely recognized emperor, which means that Zhuhou are appointed by the emperor, and can fight against each other, and the winner shall be the emperor, e. g. Warlords in HOI4 can be considered as a kind of Zhuhou (don’t use this word to call them directly because it is kinda a term for times before the modern) ; Fanshu can’t fight against each other, because this word means “autonomous vassals of the Middle Kingdom” - limited and controlled by the central regime - e. g. Outer Mongolian princes of Qing.
 
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So minor question, are religions going to be static, or will we see more religions potentially pop up as the game progresses? Things like native religions, Protestant Sects, and the Sikh Faith? Or perhaps even custom faiths/denomyns as seen in Crusader Kings 3?
I guess that we would have no Protestant anymore, instead of which, Lutheran probably, as what Johan has implied in this TT.

That should be cool, considering that we have only 4 Protestant religions in EUIV, two of which are specially designed for England and Czech. With IO, it’s possible to make the joint effort of Protestant religions more possible.

As for custom… Religious reform might be a good stage for it, and for it only, if this deserves such a mechanic…
 
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eventually independence
Please provide evidences or proofs for this. “Independence” as a word, when used with the lack of contextuality, is too far from exact.