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Tinto Talks #12 - 15th of May

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, where we delve into the details of the most top-secret project ever made.

This week we talk about something that is rather new to our GSG, and that is the concept of international organizations. Now this may sound like an anachronistic term, and when you read further in this Tinto Talks, you’ll go “but you already have this in previous games”. Yes, we did have some hard-coded systems in previous games, like the Holy Roman Empire, but what we have here in Project Caesar is a completely dynamic system, 100% scriptable and extendable for modders, which allows for many of these, and with far more flavor.

What is an international organization? Well, at its heart is a group of countries that share some common things, and then quite a few attributes that can be defined for them. The instruction file right now is 140 lines long, and it will keep growing.

Some examples of things that an IO can have are the following.
  • If it has a leader or not, and if the leader is a character or a country.
  • If it's unique or there can be multiples of it.
  • If locations can be owned by it or not.
  • Member benefits or penalties.
  • Laws and Policies it can have.
  • Special statuses inside the organization
  • How members will behave during wars
  • And dozens more unique attributes.
Membership in some of these can take a diplomatic relations slot.

As we continue our development of this game, we keep adding more of these, adding more unique flavor to the game.

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We have “control-groups” like every PDS game has had since EU1, and Stellaris added icons for quick selects… The one for Project Caesar can be pretty much anything in the game, and if you start as a member of an organization, you get a control group for it from the start.

Common Organizations
Let's take a look at some of the generic ones, some of these have been hard-coded systems in previous GSGs, and these are not unique organizations in a campaign, but can exist in multiple instances.
Coalitions
These can be created, with a country as a target, when the target has an aggressive expansion beyond a certain threshold.
Unions
This is a sort of defensive alliance between countries that share the same ruler. They may or may not have different levels of integration.

There are a few others like this, including defensive leagues and tribal federations.


Religious Organizations

Catholic Church
Every country in the world that is part of the Catholic faith is a part of this organization. They have issues that the cardinals vote on, and being a member has implications and restrictions. Of course, this has the added benefit of having Catholic pops in Catholic countries paying a tithe to the Church, which eventually finds its way into the Papacy.

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One reason to go Lutheran?

Crusades & Jihads
These are temporary international organizations that will be created when a Crusade or Jihad is called. They have a target set and act like an alliance against that country.

Autocephalous Patriarchates
Meaning self-headed, an Autocephalous Patriarchate is a metropolitan bishop in the Eastern Christian confessions which acts independently and does not depend on or answer to any other hierarchically superior church authority. The different patriarchates then have their own synods of bishops to decide upon anything affecting their own religious jurisdiction.


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WiP grahics etc.

There are many of these, for Orthodox, Miaphysite, and other Eastern Christian confessions.

There are many more, some other religions have a central organization, and others have fragmented ones.


Specific Organization
There are also a fair amount of completely unique and flavorful organizations.

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What's this then?

Tatar Yoke
The Tatar Yoke consists of various principalities of Eastern Europe that are subject to Tatar Rule following their invasion in the 13th century. The most prominent of rulers is awarded the title of Grand Prince, and is tasked with collecting tribute from the other tributaries on behalf of the Golden Horde Khan.

Middle Kingdom
The Middle Kingdom is the meaning of China and has been considered the cultural center of East Asia since Antiquity.

This organization is led by the Huángdì, the Emperor of China, who has a number of Fēng Chén, akin to vassals or tributaries, that can be promoted to Celestial Governors, equivalent to the Secretariats that the Yuán dynasty used in the administrative organization of their empire. Its members have a unique societal value, Sinicized vs Unsinicized, and there’s a Tribute system that determines how much Celestial Authority the Huángdì gets, which is used to enforce Laws and Decrees.

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The Tribute system is a system where the Huángdì sends gold to the other nations in the Middle Kingdom, depending on their size.

Holy Roman Empire
The glory of the ancient Roman Empire lives in the memory of all in Europe, Charlemagne was crowned Roman Emperor, but it was not until the coronation of Otto the Great that the current Holy Roman Empire was born, once again recovering the ambitions of a revived and unified European Empire.

This organization, of course led by an Emperor, has different statuses for countries like secular and religious electors, secular princes, free cities, and imperial prelates. It has laws that impact the organization and its members, the most important at the early game being the Golden Bull, which is a must to get approved in order to further develop the institutions of the Empire.

There are others in the game at the moment, like the Shogunate, the High Kingship of Ireland, and many more, as the system is very flexible to use.

Next week we will talk about what Religions we have in the game.
 
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If it costs 1 slot or 6.5 capacity doesn't matter in the end.. its a simple change, and we are not sure which one we want atm.
A capacity system is better because of its flexibility. Under slots it's a binary whether something is free or takes up a full slot. Under capacity you can have a close vassal take up 4, membership in a tight organization be 6.5, a guarantee of independence on a minor country be 2... basically have a finer grained view of how much work the foreign ministry has from different relation types.
 
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This is amazing, the HRE is quite bordergory and I like it, like Voltaire said, The HRE is Neither Holy, nor Roman nor an Empire and I may be jumping the gun but will we have Tinto talks about the AI in Project Caesar down the line in a near future?
 
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Interesting. I definitely see the value in uniformizing all those disparate mechanics, and creating new ones to fit with the period. Having the Catholic Church as an IO works wonders.

I hope, though, that it is possible, albeit unlikely, to make those organizations evolve beyond what they were historically. Unite the Catholics as the Pope could be an interesting play, for example. It's a bit sad that all those building blocks can't be used to create (or reform) our own organizations in-game, but at least coalitions and unions look like something that can be played directly with.
 
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Looking over the map, the amount of provinces which you are supposed to govern and the amount of trade goods one needs to manage I must admit that I am worried.

How exactly I am going to play this? I am very worried that after the very good iteration of EU4 we will once again have too much of a good thing. Like with HOI 3.
 
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Are The Knights, Teutonic Order, Livonian Order, and whatever else there may be, countries, international organizations, or something else?

Countries
 
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hre map mode i assume. with electors? with kingdoms?

and moldavia does exist apparently
Yeah that's something I am also quite confused about. Chronicles indicate that the principality got established in 1345 at the earliest.
In 1337 the would be ruler of Moldavia should be chilling in Maramures.
That area at the time would be most likely a patchwork of Romanian tags paying tribute to the Mongols, as the fact that the kingdom of Hungary had to fight the Mongols to establish the Moldavian Mark there implies some Mongol influence at the very least.
 
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Speaking of “but you already have this in previous games”. Will there be some stuff taken from previous games, such as March of the Eagles.
Like with the generals how they work for example, where you can have main in the mid/front flank, one in the right flank and one in the left flank?

Oh and with pop (before it goes too far away from that topic). Is there a way to make your people make more/less pop?
Or at least some conscription types, like how HOI4 has?
No. 1 general per army. (Johan confirmed)
 
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Hre Map.png

It's very odd that Wales is a subject of England, but the Isle of Mann is just a regular province, even though it was and still is extremely autonomous when compared to the rest of the British Crown. With the Isle of man still being under the same agreement as it had in 1337, that being an autonomous Crown Dependency which is distinctly separate from England, and later the UK. So I think that the Isle of Mann should be a vassal under the English, instead of just being owned directly by them. I also think that their should be an event if the English take Normandy for the Channel Islands get released as a vassal, as they have the same statues as the Isle of Mann, hopefully the event would also incentivise the player to release the Channel Islands, while the AI should just always release them from the event.
 
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You did not mention leagues like the Hansa I believe. Are those also organisations?

Additionally: Are some of these organisations directly playable?

Only countries are playable entities
 
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wonder if autocephalous patriarchates can survive under heathen religions? ottomans and all that yknow
Now imagine this being used to represent Eastern Catholic countries.
 
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What is an international organization? Well, at its heart is a group of countries that share some common things, and then quite a few attributes that can be defined for them. The instruction file right now is 140 lines long, and it will keep growing.

Some examples of things that an IO can have are the following.
  • If it has a leader or not, and if the leader is a character or a country.
  • If it's unique or there can be multiples of it.
  • If locations can be owned by it or not.
  • Member benefits or penalties.
  • Laws and Policies it can have.
  • Special statuses inside the organization
  • How members will behave during wars
  • And dozens more unique attributes.
Membership in some of these can take a diplomatic relations slot.
Planning on making a Fallout mod for Ceu5ar with some people since the game seems so fitting for it and Holy shi..Roman Empire this is going to be so useful for just about everything from the NCR to the BoS, Enclave, the Legion and any diplomatic regional unification really, like the Commonwealth Provisional Government. If the system is as malleable as it seems, and I have no reason to doubt that, this will just be a joy to mod with.

Praise be and Hogspeed.
 
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Will the son/daughter of the two rulers that compose the union IO inherit both countries once both his/her parents die and disband the union IO of the countries that compose it?

This way, abandoning the percentage chance system that is in previous EUs?
 
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Architecture like "units" existing in "locations" and belonging to "countries" is hardcoded, but almost all gamelogic is 100% scripted.. including MUCH of the diplomacy
Great! Does this also include AI logic and internal calculations? For example would one be able to modify the formulas by which the "Target Price" and the "Desired Amount to Trade" values from the Tinto Talk on trade are calculated? Or the formulas by which the AI decides to engage in a land/naval battle or decides whether its relative strength is sufficient to declare a war.

This would be a tremendous step forward compared to for example the EU4 modding capabilities, where such things are just sparsely accessible through defines.
 
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