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Tinto Talks #40 - 4th of December 2024

Hello everyone and welcome to another Tinto Talks, the Happy Wednesday when we talk more about our upcoming top secret game with the codename Project Caesar.

This week we will go into details about the government reforms and look into some specific ones that you may use or not.

Representing everything from ancient traditions to progressive amendments, Government Reforms outline the shape of governance in a country. Each one is unique, but they often give powerful trade-offs or open up unique play styles.

At the start of the game, countries are only allowed 2 government reforms, but in every Age there is at least one advance that unlocks another slot for reforms. Some specific reforms also add another slot, so they are essentially “free” for that country. On average in the final Age of the game, a country may have 7 or 8 reforms.

Common Government Reforms that are available to everyone are likely to have an Age requirement, spreading out their availability over the game.

Some reforms are major reforms, and a country may not have more than one major reform at the same time.

There will be a diverse selection of reforms in each age, with about 5 common new ones added each age, and another 2 per government type. The unique ones are far more plentiful, and diverse, with over 150 currently in the game.

In the User Interface, the government reforms exist in the Crown’s part of the Estates Screen, as the Crown does not really have any estate privileges…

french_estates.png
France can have 3 reforms, but are the current ones actually beneficial?



Removing a Government Reform currently costs 20 stability, which is a bit cheap, but that may change. Some reforms can not be removed at will though, and are locked until specific circumstances allow them to be removed.

Adding a new reform does not have a cost, but it takes up to 2 years before the benefits are fully implemented.



Common Reforms
Here are some examples of early government reforms that many nations have access to from the start.

Religious Tolerance
For when your country is populated by people who practice different beliefs and confessions. Therefore, it would be prudent to govern in a tolerant manner with them, ensuring their support for the government.

religious_tolerance.png

It will make your country a bit more communal though..

Diplomatic Traditions
From time immemorial our people have favored the word above the sword, giving us the ability to forge lasting relationships with our allies and friends and a reputation as honest and loyal.

diplomatic_traditions.png

For certain types of countries, this is rather important..


Military Order
This is a major reform that catholic theocracies have access to. It is one of the types of reforms that truly defines a country.

The Military Orders were created in the Middle Ages as a militant body of the Catholic Church. Its members are both warriors and monks who take religious vows and are destined to defend and expand Christianity.

military_order.png

Military Sponsorships are vitally important to a Holy Order!



Unique Government Reforms
So let's take a look at some of the more unique government reforms that we have in the game right now.

Family Sagas
This is a unique reform that anyone with the primary culture of Icelandic can get, which both Iceland and Greenland starts with.

Our ancient sagas passed orally through the generations tell of adventurous expeditions to a distant and wild land over the western sea. Perhaps one day we may follow in the footsteps of our old compatriots.

family_sagas.png

If only they had the population to exploit it..

Three Departments
This is available to any country that has Chinese or Korean as their court language.

The Three Departments System originates from the ancient Chinese empires and is the primary administrative structure of the state. All departments focus on several aspects of the process of drafting, establishing and revisiting state policies.

three_departments.png

If you want laws changed, this is the reform to have..

Magna Carta
This is a unique reform that England starts with, and is also possible for any country with the English primary culture, or if their overlord has this reform.

The 'Great Charter' is a constitutional law that distributes power away from the monarch and towards the barons. First signed in 1215, it is also one of the earliest documents to enshrine the idea of civil liberties, such as the right to a fair trial, and protection against illegal imprisonment.

magna_carta.png

It gives some power to the nobility, and shapes the country towards certain ideals.


Stay tuned, as next week we will look into all the different types of Parliaments, and how you interact with them...
 
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I gotta say, I never know how to feel about this. On one hand I have to recognise that vikings did set foot in Canada. On the other, it frustrates me to see this being put on the same level of ability as Iberian explorations, mechanics-wise. Even if it's held back by population, it just always feels like an ahistorical leg-up.

I can already tell it's not going to be a popular comment to make, but I just think that if the Icelandic or Norweagian really were specially prepared to be part of the colonial powers more than, let's say, the Bretons or the Irish or the Scots, we would have seen major colonies in the game period, as opposed to the Americas' colonisation being utterly dominated by Iberians for almost a century.

Not to mention that it's not the same thing to send your fleets sailing across the huge and empty middle of the Atlantic Oceans, and sending it from Iceland to Greenland to modern Canada. While the northern seas definitely aren't exactly safe, what Iberians pulled off was a lot more impressive AND it was a big step in sailing other huge empty oceans.

Vinland and Columbus' Expeditions only share the destination, NOTHING else was the same. They should not be equalized.
 
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no. but give me a few reasons why you'd want it.
I was speaking mostly out of curiosity, but I suppose it can help you specialize your vassal to serve the function you intend for them. For example, if you set up a vassal to serve as a sort of buffer state, a kind of March or Margravate, it makes sense to have it enact appropriate military reforms. On the other hand, if you set it up as a convenient money farm, it might make sense to force it to enact reforms that makes it tax their population more efficiently, for instance.
 
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Not to mention that it's not the same thing to send your fleets sailing across the huge and empty middle of the Atlantic Oceans, and sending it from Iceland to Greenland to modern Canada. While the northern seas definitely aren't exactly safe, what Iberians pulled off was a lot more impressive AND it was a big step in sailing other huge empty oceans.

Vinland and Columbus' Expeditions only share the destination, NOTHING else was the same. They should not be equalized.
but this doesn't give colonial range? What's the issue?

Like would you be against Polynesians having the ability to explore just because they didn't exactly travel from Iberia to the Americas? The ability to explore even in EU4 in of itself means nothing without colonial range.
 
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Also not a fan of the Family Sagas reform. Even though they may lack the population for large colonization efforts, it just seems like it'll result in a level of exploration and colonization by Iceland culture countries in every campaign that simply didn't happen historically in the game's period. Not saying that they didn't have any explorers, but let's be honest, most of the exploration of the world in the Early Modern Age was done by Iberians or those employed by the Iberians, and then later the English, Dutch, and French. Why does the Icelandic culture have such significant bonuses that will at least put them on par with those countries, if not much better?
 
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How moddable is all this?

I believe all government reforms should be at least a little difficult to change. Many (all?) should have requirements you need to meet before you can even attempt to change it, and there should be a significant backlash.
 
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Common Government Reforms that are available to everyone are likely to have an Age requirement, spreading out their availability over the game.

Some reforms are major reforms, and a country may not have more than one major reform at the same time.

There will be a diverse selection of reforms in each age, with about 5 common new ones added each age, and another 2 per government type. The unique ones are far more plentiful, and diverse, with over 150 currently in the game.

In the User Interface, the government reforms exist in the Crown’s part of the Estates Screen, as the Crown does not really have any estate privileges…


Removing a Government Reform currently costs 20 stability, which is a bit cheap, but that may change. Some reforms can not be removed at will though, and are locked until specific circumstances allow them to be removed.

Adding a new reform does not have a cost, but it takes up to 2 years before the benefits are fully implemented.
I think what should be added is: estate satisfaction penalty for adding and removing reforms. So adding reforms will be a minigame with estates(I need to please everyone so my nation wont explode while passing a reform)
 
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I know Magna Carta is has more prominence in the popular imagination but the less grandiose Charter of the Forest was more important for civil liberties for freemen than it.
 
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View attachment 1226108

I gotta say, I never know how to feel about this. On one hand I have to recognise that vikings did set foot in Canada. On the other, it frustrates me to see this being put on the same level of ability as Iberian explorations, mechanics-wise. Even if it's held back by population, it just always feels like an ahistorical leg-up.

I can already tell it's not going to be a popular comment to make, but I just think that if the Icelandic or Norweagian really were specially prepared to be part of the colonial powers more than, let's say, the Bretons or the Irish or the Scots, we would have seen major colonies in the game period, as opposed to the Americas' colonisation being utterly dominated by Iberians for almost a century.

Edit: I would be much more content if, instead of giving you exploration/settling bonuses, it gave you defence against native resistance on cold areas, for example. In other words, some kind of hygienic advantage on specific areas the Nords would be better at settling. But not direct benefits befitting of early colonial empires. That makes no sense to me.
Or it could have been a complete fluke that the iberians were so successful, pulling the metaphorical needle out of the haystack. Without being able to rerun history from 1337 on a few thousand times for a look at the distribution of events, it's a matter of subjective opinion.
 
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View attachment 1226072France can have 3 reforms, but are the current ones actually beneficial?
What are the two reforms that France has here? I assume one is Diplomatic Traditions

Three Departments
This is available to any country that has Chinese or Korean as their court language.

The Three Departments System originates from the ancient Chinese empires and is the primary administrative structure of the state. All departments focus on several aspects of the process of drafting, establishing and revisiting state policies.

View attachment 1226077
If you want laws changed, this is the reform to have..
I think this one would deserve a unique icon, maybe one showing three Chinese or Korean officials discussing something, each symbolizing one of the departments. I think that would look fun
 
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Can an estate force you to implement a government reform or could implementing a government reform be used to placate an estate? It would fit quite well with things similar to Magna Carta or Golden Liberty in PLC.
 
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@Makkasag @Fehervari etc. do you think the Golden Bull (of 1222) should be a reform or rather a unique policy like this one? Curious about your opinions
It already exists but as an Estate Privilege for the Nobility.

You may notice that our content categories are so flexible that we can hook historical content to a bunch of different ones(government reforms, laws & policies, estate privileges, advances, etc.). It is more a matter of preference regarding which category we think fits better.

We'll talk more in-depth about all the unique content in January when we start the new 'Tinto Flavor' series.
 
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Also not a fan of the Family Sagas reform. Even though they may lack the population for large colonization efforts, it just seems like it'll result in a level of exploration and colonization by Iceland culture countries in every campaign that simply didn't happen historically in the game's period. Not saying that they didn't have any explorers, but let's be honest, most of the exploration of the world in the Early Modern Age was done by Iberians or those employed by the Iberians, and then later the English, Dutch, and French. Why does the Icelandic culture have such significant bonuses that will at least put them on par with those countries, if not much better?
I would trust the devs on this one a bit more. I guess they will playtest this to make sure that Norse cultures don't dominate the colonial game if in the hands of the AI at least. And for the player, it could be fun to cause such an alternative history...
 
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Why, if their colonial efforts failed? Its not like Portugal was a massive population nexus, either.

If it really IS a matter of knowledge of how to colonise and explore, that is.

Portugal has 1.3M people at the start.

Iceland has 46k, and Greenland 1.5k.
 
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Or it could have been a complete fluke that the iberians were so successful, pulling the metaphorical needle out of the haystack. Without being able to rerun history from 1337 on a few thousand times for a look at the distribution of events, it's a matter of subjective opinion.
Well I think at a baseline the Icelanders and Greenlanders were semi-regularly sailing the open sea for 500-1500km to communicate and trade with each other and mainland Europe and they did so for 3 centuries, that has to account for something. Just saying they didn't discover the volta do mar or didn't invent the same ocean going ship doesn't mean much.

If the game ends up with Iceland colonizing Macaronesia or Vinland reappearing every other game then that's worthy of critique
 
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yeah sorry.. been a bit busy atm working on the game.
No worries mate, I didn't mean it as a complaint. End-of-the-year craziness and wanting things to wound down before the holidays is totally normal, and even though all of us are obviously overhyped about PC, you guys also deserve your slower days. Nobody can say you and your team haven't been passionately at it since you started Tinto up, all I can say is keep up the good work!
 
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Also not a fan of the Family Sagas reform. Even though they may lack the population for large colonization efforts, it just seems like it'll result in a level of exploration and colonization by Iceland culture countries in every campaign that simply didn't happen historically in the game's period. Not saying that they didn't have any explorers, but let's be honest, most of the exploration of the world in the Early Modern Age was done by Iberians or those employed by the Iberians, and then later the English, Dutch, and French. Why does the Icelandic culture have such significant bonuses that will at least put them on par with those countries, if not much better?
Having the ability to recruit explorers doesn't put Iceland at the same level as the Iberians, not even close. You need a good economic and population base to explore, let alone host a colonial empire. Iceland's basic situation is far more restrictive than whether or not they have this modifier.
 
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Maybe a better name would be "Governing Principles" and rename "Crown" to "Government"

1. Reform means it changed from A to B, and thus starting with a "reform" makes little sense
2. Crown makes no sense for countries that aren't monarchies - and many of countries in 1337 won't be. It's funny to think the famously republican Venetians will be using "Crown" to represent the power of the ruling oligarchy.


Other than the naming, I'm fine with the mechanic.
I absolutely prefer "Crown" rather than "Government" for monarchies though - surely that can change depending on the country?

But you're definitely right that "Principles" is a better fit here than "Reforms".
 
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