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Tinto Talks #48- 29th of January 2025

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, The Happy Wednesday where we give out some information about our entirely top secret game Project Caesar, and get great feedback!

This week we will talk about how Unions and Regencies work in Project Caesar.

Unions
A union is a type of treaty that happens when two or more countries happen to have the same ruler, or when their rulers have a royal marriage. This functions like a defensive alliance in that they will come to each other's help automatically if they are attacked, but laws can be added to them to change how the union works.

In some previous GSGs we have done, a union was a type of subject, but here they start as a common pact in the form of an International Organization, where both partners (or more), at first all start at the same level.

A newly generated union only has the assured defense policy setup, and if you wish to keep the union stable and long-lasting you need to increase the Union Integration Level by getting more and more centralizing policies.

The Union Integration Level describes how centralized the Union is through laws and policies. Every member who is present when a centralizing policy is implemented gets its level increased. With the final centralization policy, all junior partners that have the same level as the union get unified by the Senior Partner. Members who join the Union later need to catch up on their progress to be integrated via the parliament.

muscowite_union.png

The Muscovite Union at the start of the game with the opinion, estates, stability, legitimacy and Integration Level of each member on display. At the top, you can see the Union-wide Integration Level which is basically a counter for all the centralizing policies implemented.


Union Parliament
In order to implement the laws for newcomers, you will have to use the Union Parliament which represents an assembly of the Union that calls in the ruling class estates of all members who have the already established laws not implemented yet.

Calling the parliament in the union works similar to how you call it at the country level. However, the parliament issue is fixed for it, differently to a regular country Parliament. To pass the Parliament Issue, you need to reach a minimum of 50% Parliament Support. And to get support for it, you have to bribe one of the three ruling estates of any of the countries in the Union. How much support they give depends on their Great Power Score compared to the total of all the member states that are called in the Parliament. In other words: in a union that has both France and Normandy in it, bribing France’s estates has a significantly higher impact on the result of the Parliament than bribing Normandy’s estates.

quadruple.png

Here we have the Parliament of the Hungarian Union with Croatia which already has 2 centralizing policies implemented and now has Serbia and Bosnia as newcomers in the Union, with an Integration Level for each of them of 0. The members are sorted by the potential Parliament Support.

There are three potential bribes available for each member, one per estate. Once selected, you have the choice of one of several Parliament Agendas for that estate:

agenda.png


Right now, the Bribe Effect is set to reduce the Legitimacy of your country and transfer gold to the target estate, and the cost scales with the Integration Levels the member state is behind compared to the whole IO and their Great Power Score compared to the Senior Partner. There are plans to diversify the bribes though, so each agenda has a more unique cost attached to it.

Once a member’s estate is bribed, the country vanishes from the list for that Parliament.

Union Laws
Let's dive into the different laws that a Union can have. Laws in the PU are separated into two categories: Centralizing Policies and Generic Policies. Starting with the latter, smaller category, every Personal Union has the Assured Defense policy when created, which gives the union its defensive character.

It is possible to replace it with its two alternatives if you wish to have your partners not be involved in your defensive wars. These options are however not very popular amongst the AI.

offense.png

The offensive counterpart has only one policy though which allows you to call union partners into offensive wars as if they were allies:


The final Generic Policy is the one about the Union Contribution. As you have noticed, the aforementioned policies mention that the Union needs a certain amount of Gold. With the Union Contribution policy, a treasury in the Union will be established where each member has to pay in.

union_contribution.png

The numbers of the actual payments are still subject to change.

The Gold in the Union Treasury is right now used to enact policies in the Union or to call in the Parliament.

Moving on to the Centralization Policies, the first and probably most important one is the policy of establishing a de facto Senior Partner of the Union.

The Senior Partner is the de facto leader of the Personal Union, so the Parliament is called by it, and it’s also the member that can propose Centralizing Policies. The AI member with the highest Great Power Score will try to enact this policy.

The remaining policies revolve around standardizing the Succession Law, the Government Reforms and Laws, the Estate Privileges, the Cultures and Languages of the members after the Senior Partner ones.

Finally, there is the Unification of Crowns policy which finalizes the centralization, and lets the Senior Partner annex every Junior Partner who has the same Integration Level as the Union itself.


Regencies

A Regency occurs while a government has no legitimate ruler, and is instead led by a regent. Usually, it is caused when the heir selection produces no valid heir, or when the heir is a mere child. In a Monarchy, the consort may become the regent, but otherwise, it is a character associated with the most powerful estate, or even the overlord. The Regency persists until a proper ruler is restored.

The type of regency you get depends on several different factors, but the game goes in the order listed below and picks the first valid one for a monarchy.

Nobles Regency
If the Nobles Estate has more than 33% of the Power, a character from the nobles estate will be assigned as the regent. This will make the nobles happier, but make other estates less happy.

Clergy Regency
If the Clergy Estate has more than 33% of the Power, a character from the clergy estate will be assigned as the regent. This will make the clergy happier, but make other estates less happy.

Burghers Regency
If the Burgher Estate has more than 33% of the Power, a character from the burghers estate will be assigned as the regent. This will make the burghers happier, but make other estates less happy.

Peasants Regency
If the Peasants Estate has more than 33% of the Power, a character from the peasants estate will be assigned as the regent. This will make the peasants happier, but make other estates less happy.

Overlord Regency
When a country is a subject and has no ruler, the overlord 's ruler may instead rule it as a regent. The subject will of course get a loyalty boost as long as the overlords ruler is controlling it.

Consort Regency
When the ruler of a Monarchy dies while the heir is still a child, the consort may rule the country instead as a regent. This makes the stability go up a bit during the regency.

Subject Regency
When a country is an overlord and has no ruler, a powerful subject's ruler may instead rule it as a regent. All subjects will be slightly less loyal though.

Interregnum
This regency happens when a country has no ruler, a temporary provisional administration will lead it until an official ruler gets appointed, which can be quick or take a long time.

Election Administration
When a Republic has no ruler, a temporary one is assigned to rule it as regent until an official election can be held.

We also have unique regencies like Judicial Conclave, Mamluk Succession, Papal Conclave, Fratricide Succession, which we will go into in more detail in the relevant Tinto Flavour Talks.

Extend Regency
If you feel that your heir is just too incompetent, and your current regent is really great, you can extend the regency by 5 more years for a mere cost of 20 legitimacy.

There is always the chance though that a regent has had enough, and attempts to seize power.

extend_regency.png


Next week we will talk a little bit about diseases…
 
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Is it possible for a senior member to regroup several junior members into one state ? (like how Charles the Bold of Burgundy organized the burgundian netherlands into one political entity)

This could be a mechanic pretty similar to how you can create subject nations when you want

This could be an option that you only have access to at a very high level of integration, if all the states you're regrouping have the same level of integration and if all the states you're regrouping are geographically contiguous (that way you can't create a state with weird enclaves or oversees territories)

Also, you could make it so that, the closer the countries you want to unite are in terms of culture, religion and political system, the likelier they are to accept to be united

For the player, this would be a kind of high risk high reward option where centralizing some states into one makes it easier to manage your union as you now have to treat with only one state instead of a multitude, but if something were to make this state disloyal (like for example religious differences in the case of the netherlands) this more powerfull state would then have a higher chance of wanting to leave the union

Lastly, it would be very interesting for the created nation to be a very decentalized one because of how it was formed. This could be portrayed by having a special privilege/privileges for the ruling estates of the new country that gives the estates a whole lot of influence, loyalty and also a reduction to control growth
For the nobility, this could for example be a privilege that's called "Guarantees to the unified nobles" and that says "In order to form this nation, nobles of the unified states had to be given significant guarantees regarding their autonomy"
Of course, an option would be given to the player to play as this new nation ;)
 
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While this would work for Spain, I don't think this would work for every personal union, especially Jagellonian Unions, where each polity does not want to engage with other countries' polities. Like if I recall properly, it's the reason why Polish armies are not in Varna, as the magnates felt like Wladyslav scorned their country by permanently staying in Hungary and never setting foot on Poland; and there is no Parliament whatsoever between these two states. The same thing happened when Frederick Augustus ruled both Saxony and Poland, with the Polish magnates refusing to lend him armies and him eventually accepting that PLC would never be a formal part of any Saxon polity. When he for example went in exile in Poland as Saxony was captured in the Seven Years' War, he was politically impotent, as he is just the king in the PLC, which is a relatively less important position than Saxon kings.

Like I said, this can work for Spain, because it technically is composed of two crowns with different laws and parliaments, and this can also work with pre-17, pre-18th century PLC as Poland and Lithuania are technically separate, but this won't work with personal unions as they are different than others.

And I don't really like this gives too much power to the senior partner of the union, especially in the case of the PLC and whoever external monarch the magnates manage to instill upon the throne.
 
If a senior partner having their PU become junior partner of another PU, how integration level will work?
For example, Austria become senior partner of PU with Hungary, when Hungary already has high-integrated PU with Croatia. Will integration of Croatia go back to the starting point?
 
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The UI has too many underscores in my opinion
Words that have tooltips would look better as bold and yellow but without underscores everywhere,
 
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The Senior Partner is the de facto leader of the Personal Union, so the Parliament is called by it, and it’s also the member that can propose Centralizing Policies. The AI member with the highest Great Power Score will try to enact this policy.

So how would this work in the case of PLC? Post-Jagiellonian regimes are almost always junior partners of whichever poor schmuck the magnates decided as fit to put over the throne, mostly as a figurehead, but the "senior" partner also almost always gets shafted on by the PLC simply because the Polish magnates treat these monarchs as said, mere figureheads. Wladyslav of Hungary and Poland can also represent such a case, where he insisted on ruling on Hungary only and never setting foot in Poland.

IMHO a much more realistic and simpler solution would be the old way, where senior partners would be the countries where the monarchs came from, where they ruled when they were voted into office in the case of Novgorod electing a Muscovite monarch as Grand Prince, or in the case of Wladyslav, choosing to rule in Hungary. BUT like the old way, the junior partners should have much leeway in however they wanted to conduct their own business, irrespective of the ruling monarch's decision. Kind of like, if we like you, we support you, but if we suddenly decide that we hate an Austrian on the throne of the PLC, then we will not talk with you.

Also, is it possible to resist or block centralization efforts? All I read in the DD is how one can bribe estates to progress the centralization laws, not to revert these laws. Pardon me if I read wrong.
 
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For Regencies and successions, will we still have Ottoman Harem type of unique successions? As you pointed Mamluks getting their unique one it seems. And will a dynasty like the Habsburgs get some unique stuff for the Union mechanics?
 
What if a union that already had integration policies enacted becomes the junior partner of a different nation? Say aragon gets a PU over Sicily they enact some centralization policies and then they become a junior partner under Castile. Does Castile inherit any of that?
 
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Will there be palace coups such as a regent taking over or a child taking over from their parent? Or perhaps a famous general, with support from some estates, taking over?
 
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They aren't PUs, but Subjects.
Are there mechanics to turn colonies into personal unions, like Brazil or India IRL? I know the Brazil mechanic exists in EU4 but that's a special decision trigger, so I'd like to have a more generic way to do this given certain conditions are met(good relations with CN and overlord or subject is in a bad state).

I also hope that there are more options in the laws for a more where you get rewarded with an easier integration for being a benevolent senior partner and helping your junior partners - maybe an alternate easier integration if you agree to something like accepting junior partner's cultures? Even if that's not possible, a path that doesn't end in integration and domination would be nice for co-op- EU4 Poland and Lithuania missions seemed perfect for co-op multiplayer until poland's missions that are locked by needing to integrate your friend. Of course, one can just not integrate, but would be nice to have a decentralized path, like EU4 HRE.
 
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I think this is not a good system. It feels so abstract as to be inapplicable to any real situation.

Different levels of PU is a good idea, but this integration system, and especially the parliament and bribing, doesn't feel right. It reminds me of the "interest groups" in VIC3, which were intended to generalize parties and political groups. But the abstraction made it unfun and unrealistic.

To propose changes:
1. No general IO or parliament. Deal with each country individually. PU laws and reforms should be mostly on a per country basis. States that were effectively governed together could possibly still be in one PU, for instance the spanish netherlands.

2. Related, have these PU relations be similar to CK3 vassal contracts. This would allow higher flavor for unique relationships. In periods of weakness, the estates could demand a less integrated relationship. If you beat the estates in a major rebellion, you could force through a more integrated contract.

3. Allow building in PU, as well as controlling army. On the other hand, trading might be left with the AI, more representative of true PUs.
 
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You should be able to bribe an estate by promising to increase their power, since that was much higher of an incentive to betray your country than money in history. Tell the Nobility you'll restore their privileges and they get way more willing to let you annex them.
 
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The Republic gets an event to select the ruler or heir of the PU as its ruler, to keep the PU running; if it chooses a different ruler, then it will leave the Union.
How does the AI determine whether or not to stay? Is it based on opinion, integration, random, or something else?
 
A peasant as the regent?!?! I'm going to assume that it is going to be difficult to raise the power of the peasant estate in non-peasant republic like governments in order to avoid having a literal peasant be regent for an underage prince.
 
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What happens if a country that's already in a PU gets a PU over a country that also already has a PU of its own? For example, Poland-Lithuania gets a PU on Austria-Bohemia. Since as per what you said you can only be in one PU IO and since senior partner is decided by the parliament (so by the sound of it, only after the IO is formed), what decides which IO is used the the new joint PU? Something like great power ranking, diplomatic influence or prestige? Or do you get to choose which IO (and therefore which set of PU laws) to pick from during the parliament session when such a PU forms?
Love all questions in your post, and I definitively DO share them, but the senior partner is decided by the first tag to pass a law that establish them as the major partner. It'd seem this law requires a vote from the different member of the PU though. Only then is the parliement established.

Tbh while I find the system interesting, I agree it looks "unfinished". That being told I don't have a precise idea to propose to make it better, and don't know what the current system gives in game atm. But I see a fair bit of edge cases / strange things happening :

  1. Why is it easier (or at least, different) to pass laws for the first members of the PU than for those arriving afterwards
  2. Why is the major partner written in stone rather than more dynamic (especially in cases where the union gets suddenly extended to some Hegemon)
  3. And I share the opinion of https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...48-29th-of-january-2025.1727342/post-30146509 that estates bribes could be much more complex
 
The remaining policies revolve around standardizing the Succession Law, the Government Reforms and Laws, the Estate Privileges, the Cultures and Languages of the members after the Senior Partner ones.
Is there a discount to go to the next integration level if the members have things in common for a step? Does it makes the policies cheaper? Exemple with the Muscovite union where most members probably have the same Succession law, the same religion, language and the same primary culture than the senior partner. It makes sense for me if the laws which aim to unify those things in the union are cheaper than the others or even skipped if all the members are already aligned.
 
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There's a first Union vote available to select the Senior Partner, and when one country is selected as such, then the Parliament is activated.

Can you give a somewhat practicle example of how it happenes? So you are playing Castille. You are married to Aragon and by DHE or by chance a son inherits both kingdoms. What happens next? A parliament debate immediatly pops up to immediately decide who will be the Senior? How does it even work between only two countries such as those? There is no way a small country like Aragon can impose itself right? So Castille kind of automatically wins it, and then the parliament mechanic becomes unlocked and you can start centralizing?