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Tinto Talks #5 - March 27th, 2024

Welcome to the fifth Tinto Talks, where we talk about the design for our upcoming top secret game with the codename ‘Project Caesar.’


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The state is me! Oh, you meant E-state, sorry.. not me ..

Today we will go into detail about one of the core systems in the game, and talk about how estates work.

First of all, there are four estates in Project Caesar, which mostly map 1 to 1 with a social class: Nobility, Clergy, Burghers and the Commoners. There is also the Crown, which represents the state itself.

Each estate gains power based on the amount of population belonging to the estate, which is also modifiable by local attributes of where the population is, where some nobles may have very high power in a certain area, or whether a specific city has entrenched burgher rights there.

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This is the estates part of the government view, where you can see their power, current satisfaction, the equilibrium its trending toward, and what privileges it currently has.

Every 1,000 nobles gives +50 estate power to their estate, while 1,000 peasants merely give +0.05 estate power as default. Then these are modified locally in every location, as mentioned above, and then in the entire country by laws, reforms and most notably the privileges that you have given the estates.

The total power of all the 4 estates and the crown then together all add up to 100%, which is the effective power they have.

Depending on your crown power, you either get a scaling penalty or scaling bonus, on aspects like the cost of revoking estate privileges, the cost of changing policies in laws, the efficiency of the cabinet, the expected costs of the court, and other things. If your crown power is weak, you need to have the estates really satisfied, or you will not get much out of any parliament you try to call.

Each of the four estates has a current satisfaction and an equilibrium it will move towards. Some estates, and some countries, will have the estate satisfaction moving quicker to the equilibrium than others. Each estate has 2 factors per type of estate in which their satisfaction impacts the entire country, where satisfaction above 50% gives a scaling bonus, and below, a scaling penalty.

If the satisfaction is below 25%, this estate will not provide any levies. Most importantly, the estate satisfaction also impacts the satisfaction of the pops that belong to that estate, possibly creating rebel factions or even civil wars.
  • Nobility impacts your prestige gain and your counterespionage.
  • Clergy impacts your research speed and your diplomatic reputation.
  • Burghers impact your merchant power and the production efficiency.
  • Commoner impacts your food production and your stability costs.

So what impacts the satisfaction equilibrium of an estate? The privileges they get, the current stability, some reforms may impact them, some laws may, how you tax them, and much more. Some examples include clergy being happier with higher religious unity or burghers liking having more market centers in your country.

# estate privileges
Estate Privileges then? You may feel forced to grant privileges to estates to be able to tax them more, and you may be forced to grant privileges to get their support in parliament. All privileges impact the power of their estate, and many also increase their satisfaction equilibrium. They all have some impact on gameplay fitting the privilege, and often they also impact a societal value of their country.

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WiP ui, temporary graphics and no icons etc.

There are many different privileges, and many unique ones depending on where and what type of country you play.

We mentioned taxes before, and while this is not the development diary where we go into details about the economic system, it is important to mention that the estates of a country have wealth that is increased by the amount of money that you have not taken from them in taxes. Rich estates will use their wealth on many things, primarily to invest into things that benefit them, but will often also build things that also benefit the country.

Next week we will talk about a few new concepts that are rather new to this game that have not been present in previous games, as we will talk about proximity, control and maritime presence, all concepts that need to be talked about in detail, before we go into the economy system.
 
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I agree with this. I would prefer style more similar to EU3, EU4, Hoi4 or V2, just a bit modernized and of course with new QoL features etc.
Victoria 3 UI looks kind of...bland and mobile like? Like it has no soul? Just sharing my opinion, of course.

Maybe they should make a poll/survey about this? It seems that there is a division between fans of older UI style (EU3, EU4, V2, Hoi4, CK2) and new style (CK3, Victoria 3). I'm curious what most fans prefer.

I personally like how MEIOU mod for EU3 looks like. It's like something between EU3 and EU4, but with it's own style.

I appreciate and value your opinion but I must declare my disagreement with your opinion respectfully.
 
Will there be a Linux native version?
 
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@Johan Speaking of achievements, will we have to activate "Lucky nations" option like in EU4 to get them? I always found that as rather strange condition.
There is no lucky nations mechanic in this game..
 
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Druplesnubb said:
Does it really make sense to have estate power based on population? A province having five noble families instead of one noble family doesn't make the nobility in that province fiv times more powerful. In fact, the nobility would probably be weaker if it's split among multiple smaller houses instead of a single noble house controlling all the land. Nor does a noble family becomes twice as powerful if they have 10 family members instead of 5.

This is one of the abstractions we were willing to make.

What if the number value for the nobles doesn't represent how many nobles there are... but the physical size of the nobles :oops:
 
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I wonder if there will be more historical generals/leaders as scripted events like Eugene "of Savoy", skanderbeg ect, or are we gonna pray and hope we get knockoff equivalents of them as heirs/random generals
 
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I loved the struggle for power between Interest Groups of Vic3, that tried to bite you in the ass when you pissed them off, it made internal politics really fun. And sometimes we could really capture the names and faces of our biggest allies and opponents, when they kept being so for years and years. As well as our own nation leader.

The Estates system of Po:Caesar seems like a combination between that from Vic3, and EU4. I hope it gets as dynamic as Vic3, even if such estates are way more solid and hard to change, in comparison to the social mobility of the Industrial Era. Internal affairs have been very iffy in EU4, and could be better in Imperator.


Next diary seems like it's going to talk about interesting exchanges between lands, based on the map. Which is always awesome!
 
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We are currently only showing the "flat map".
Very cool - thanks for the reply.

Could you please clarify what maps exist? From your comments so far I think you are saying that there is:

  1. non political terrain map - with texture
  2. Political map - with texture
  3. Political map - no texture (as seen in the banner
Is that right?
Or are you saying we can have any map we want in a "non flat" version? Can I have a textured version of the culture map that shows the terrain?

Thanks!
 
This is it, this is the game, the first magnum opus of Paradox Interactive, this is what everything has been building up to, all the achievements, victories, and defeats, every experiment, every tear, every smile, every comet and omen, every movement from 2010 onwards... CK 2 and 3, Stellaris, EUIV, Victoria 3, Imperator Rome, HoI 4... it... all... leads... here... to Tinto... to this golden coin...
 
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will there be ages like in EU4?

If yes, would it be possible to have branching ages, like in Millennia?
for example, if Byzantium never falls, there is little reason to go west and discover New World
or, if Catholicism successfully prevents reformations firing, some other age could replace age of reformations
 
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Looks good but as others have already mentioned, wealth, not population, should be the key determining factor for an estate's base "strength". It would be a lot neater than this %estate power modifier.

Would also love to see estate make-up be a bit more dynamic than in other paradox games. Vic 3's interest groups are by far the best and most interesting mechanic in that game but they are massively held back by the fact that you're stuck with the same seven every game.

It would be amazing if your nobles could get so powerful that they actually split and you end up with different houses vying for control as separate "estates", like the Burgundians and Armagnacs in France. Or the same with the burghers and you end up with Ghent, Bruges and Ypres to contend with in Flanders.

Loving the look of estate privileges so far though!
 
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Much like there are now "burghers" and "commoners", I think the nobility estate should also be split in two: to the magnates/barons/aristocrats and the "common" nobility (medium and lesser nobles). The two groups had distinct interests and the level of influence of the two groups were vastly different. The conflict between these two power groups was a core theme of the political struggles of Central Europe in much of the time period. I think it should be represented in the game.
 
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562937acfc16e0ff556d962e8d5bdf7b.gif

My hype grows stronger.

Out of curiosity, are the estates hardcoded, or can modders change their number? Like, if a mod decides "five estates is too much, we only need three", could they do that? And by the same token, if a mod decides "five isn't nearly enough to complete our vision, we need 10", could they do that?
 
I personally like to have 1 strong estate to rely upon when calling a parliament.
Is there a drawback to this? I assume having strong Nobility means you can easily pass pro-nobility reforms but not really other things. Is there a merit in keeping the estates in balance to go through parliament relatively easily on many different stances, or would that just be inefficient?

Also, with seemingy 400+ years of gameplay to look forward to, what is the mechanic stopping me from favouring one estate since 1337 and creating a 100% Burgher Trade Empire or Commoner-only "Communist" regime by the end date?
 
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What would be Cossacks position? They were essentially nobility but the whole cossack deal and rebellions were problems based on the fact that the nobility of PLC refused cossacks becoming separate estate
 
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