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Tinto Talks #50 - 12th February 2025

Hey everyone, and welcome back. Johan is busy today (allegedly) so instead I will walk you through this Tinto Talks on Formable Countries in our little project called Caesar. It’s a fairly tight feature so this should be nice and quick.



What are Formable Countries?

Basically, formable countries are new tags that you can switch to. Typically they represent historical unions and conquests, but some represent aspirations that never materialised.

Generally speaking, the vision behind Formables is to offer roleplaying and historical immersion, and support player fantasies, rather than modifier stacking. They will change your country name, national flag, and map color. So while you may unlock some content such as advances or other minor unique content, the tag change is often the goal in itself.

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Spain gets some unique advances in the later ages, but not all do.

Rather than your country changing automatically every age, you achieve it by completing certain objectives. Usually, you'll need to control a certain percentage of a predefined set of locations, for example Scandinavia needs 75% of the locations in the Scandinavia region.

There’s typically additional requirements as well such as your Primary Culture belonging to a certain Culture Group. Forming Spain also requires you and all the independent countries in Iberia to be Christian, as it is thematically closely tied to the completion of the Reconquista. Iberian Muslims have the reverse rules for forming Al-Andalus.

Some are directly tied to actions in International Organizations, like the Holy Roman Empire or the Ilkhanate.

Formables also have a Tier that represents their natural order of precedence. You can only form countries that are the same or higher tier than you. For example, England (Tier 2) can form Great Britain (Tier 3) but Great Britain can’t form England. The AI will only form countries that are a higher tier.


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Country formation is just a click away.


There are 3 settings to the relevant game rule.
  1. Only Historical Formable Countries
    1. Only countries that actually formed in the game’s time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Spain and Great Britain
  2. Allow Plausible Formable Countries(Default)
    1. Countries that could plausible have formed, or formed just after the time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Germany and Italy
  3. Allow Ahistorical Formable Countries
    1. Aspirational or fantasy countries can be formed. Examples include
      1. North Sea Empire (which is a Tier IV) if you control Britain and Scandinavia
      2. Europa (Tier V)



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Some countries have different flags depending on the exact manner in which they are formed. For example this variant of the Union Jack with a dominant saltire when you start as Scotland.


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And some formables come with little treats to sweeten the deal.


Screenshot 2025-02-12 123920.png

The Teutonic Order has a long way to go before they can become Prussia…


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But it might be worth it…


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Some exist to fulfil common player fantasies, but only appear if the player chooses in the Game Rules to have the less historical ones.



This is our current list of formable countries, let us know which ones you would like us add!

FormableTierNote
Europa5Ahistorical
Rome4Ahistorical
Hindustan4Plausible
Holy Roman Empire4Plausible
Byzantium4
Ilkhanate4
Iran4
Mongolia4
Mughals4
Rûm4
Russia4
United States4
Celtica3Ahistorical
Latin Empire3Ahistorical
North Sea3Ahistorical
Al-Andalus3Plausible
Arabia3Plausible
Canada3Plausible
Egypt3Plausible
Germany3Plausible
Italy3Plausible
Malaya3Plausible
Ruthenia3Plausible
Scandinavia3Plausible
Shan3Plausible
Banten3
Bengal3
Deccan3
Delhi3
Ethiopia3
Great Britain3
Gujurat3
Hausa3
Inca3
Kongo3
Manchu3
Maratha3
Mexico3
Poland-Lithuania3
Punjab3
Rajput3
Siam3
Sokoto3
Spain3
Timurids3
Two Sicilies3
Yamato3
Africa2Ahistorical
Carthage2Ahistorical
Hen Ogledd2Ahistorical
Aotearoa2Plausible
Greece2Plausible
Jerusalem2Plausible
Livonia2Plausible
Maya2Plausible
Albania2
Armenia2
Austria2
Ayutthaya2
Bahamis2
England2
Georgia2
Golden Horde2
Holstein2
Ireland2
Navarre2
Nepal2
Netherlands2
Poland2
Prussia2
Scotland2
Serbia2
Sweden2
Switzerland2
Tibet2
Wales2
Connacht1Plausible
Ulster1Plausible
Aïr1
Bavaria1
Beja1
Mazovia1
Mecklenburg1
Mossi1
Nassau1
Northumbria1
Pomerania1
Sardinia1
Saxony1
Silesia1


That's it for today's dev diary. Thanks for reading, and we'll see you next time, where we will talk about Subject Types, and an interesting part of the Castilian player fantasy…
 
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Also instead of celtica something based on the word gael like gaelia or gaelicia otherwise Wales and Brittany would be included
 
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Can it be called Persia instead of Iran or could you add a setting like Byzantium. I understand that Iran is what the locals call it, but you don’t have Spain labeled as España nor do you see me complaining that in the Spanish version Scotland would be called Escocia, different languages have different versions of country names just like any other word. Considering that Persia has been used by the west all the way up till 1935 - when Iran changed it - while still being continued to be used I think it is fair to consider adding a setting, side note: you also have to admit that Persia just also sounds awesome!
 
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The Scottish cultures belong to the following (Groups) and [Languages]:
  • Scots (British, Scottish) [English Language]
  • Highland (British, Scottish, Celtic) [Gaelic Language]
  • Norse-Gael (British, Scottish, Celtic, Scandinavian) [Gaelic Language]
If I'm reading that right, Scottish is it's own group? Just overlaps with British and Gaelic?
 
About the the formable created by uniting Moldavia, Wallachia and Transylvania

I believe the name should be either Rumania to distinguish it from Rome, ERE or Sultanate of Rum

Or Dacia is that was an actual proposal made by Catherine The Great
 
Ok so this is a collection of formable nations I think are missing:
Finland (tier 2)
Lotharingia (tier 3)
France (tier 3)
Estonia (tier 2 or 1)
Romania (tier 2)
Carpathia !?! (tier 4)
Brazil (tier 3)
United kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland (tier 4)
Central America (tier 2 or 3)
 
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Since we got this very versatile system I would not feel as guilty to suggest more crazy formables like culture group union wages such as Slavia(slavic speaking countries) latim union/West-romam empire(romance language countries), Germanic union(Germanic languages) and etc.

Maybe a united muslim caliphate tag would also be appropriate? I think it would be a good reward for someone reunifying the shattered Muslim world.

Curious to how this works on countries that are named after dynasties, is it like eu4 where your dynasty is fixed or the name dynamically changes ? Examples being Iran/Persia , daymios and China

The flag thing is amazing and I can see a lot of scenarios it can be used ! Imagine if you are playing Bulgaria and you conquer de Balkans and Byzantium , getting then to reform Byzantium but now it has a different flavor name and flag based on your culture ! Imagine the same for Serbia Albania creation etc, anyone claiming the mantle of Rome having a flavor such as that.
We could even go beyond and like imagine you as Albania conquering the whole of Italy and holding it for centuries... Flavor name and alt flag ! This one I see as more work demanding but would be cool regardless.
Even like, I am not sure I am being ambitious here but maybe relaxing culture requirements a bit so that maybe I start as a french vassal but I end up conquering the whole Italy... Since nationalism was not really strong I think you would realistically have no problem in proclaiming the Kingdom of Italy even if french and to represent that a different name and flag would be sich for such scenarios
 
So, the modern territory of the Netherlands is the Netherlands and the modern territory of the Netherlands and Belgium is also just the Netherlands?

Yeah, respectfully disagree. A curmudgeonly position, imo.

I'd like there to be something special for the Netherlands and Belgium. I think it's cool to unite the region. That's always a goal of my games where I play in the region. If others feel the same, then I think it would be cool to have a special name for the whole thing. If I'm the only one, then nevermind.
I don't know how it's curmudgeonly to not want ahistorical names in a game that is supposed to be somewhat about history.
And also: there was an independent country that united the whole region in 1815, within the (probable, I don't know if the enddate has already been announced) timeframe of the game. It was called the (United) Kingdom of the Netherlands. Why would a Netherlands that basically just replicates what it eventually accomplished historically change its name when it obviously did not do so upon that historical achievement?
 
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We thought about that kind of thing, using development or population to give locations a score towards country formables.

It becomes more difficult for players to understand what they need to do to achieve the goal though, and also it could lead to a weird situation where the player makes Denmark super developed and can then claim "Scandinavia" without even setting foot in Norway or Sweden.
Then how about both a land and development/population requirement so it can't be cheesed
 
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A few more points for the new world:
-Mexico should be a tier 4, not a tier 3. Mexico shouldn't be able to reform into the united states. Mexico had a fair amount of prestige as a title, hence why it was an "empire" during the time period.
-Brazil should also be added as a formable, much like Mexico should be a tier 4.
-Colombia should be a formable, either tier 3 or 4.
-Venezuela and Ecuador should also be formables on a tier below Colombia (so 2 or 3 in this case)
-Peru should be a formable as well, possibly tier 3 or 4 too.
-La Plata (or United provinces of Rio de la Plata) should be another tier 3-4 formable.
-Chile should be a tier 2-3.
-Central America (or United Provinces of Central America) as a tier 2 formable.
-Yucatan, Texas and California should all be added as tier 2 formables.
-Rio Grande, Uruguay and Paraguay could all also be added as tier 2 formables.
-I would add Virginia, Carolina and Quebec as more tier 2 formables in the north american east coast.
-Cuba and Santo Domingo/Haiti (name could depend on the culture of the one forming it) as more tier 2s.
 
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Some form of formables for Australia and New Zealand should exist, if formed by native tags or breakaway colonials. They would be squarely in the realm of plausible (obviously, if formed locally that is more ahistorical). Similar perhaps for South Africa.

Also, something covering the islands of modern Indonesia seems sensible.
 
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let us know which ones you would like us add!
Alright here are some (generally longshot) suggestions

Chinese dynasties based on culture:
-Ming (Han formable)
-Yuan (Mongolic reformable)
-Qing (Manchu/Jurchen formable)
-Liao (Daur [post-Khitan] formable)
-Western Xia (Tibetan formable)
-One of the Shatuo dynasties as a Turkic formable

Post-Age of Discovery tags (with different flavor depending on whether they are formed colonially or by indigenous nations/cultures):
-Brazil
-Argentina
-Chile
-United Central America
-The Guyanas
-The West Indies
-The Philippines
-Australia
-Papua
-South Africa
-Vinland

Flavor for Africa:
-Aksum
-Old Ghana
-Numidia
-Mapungubwe
-Nubia, which in turn can form into Cush
-Kemet (Pharaonic-flavoured Egypt)
 
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i feel like i would add this formables:
Tuscany
Belgium
at least one nation for every german region (swabia, rheinland, Westphalia, ecc...)
Romagna (i am from there so it would be very cool, basically the region between Ravenna and Ancona in the Adriatic coast of Italy)
Romania
Zaporizia/Cossack ethmanate
Babilon (since you added Carthage)
Gran Colombia
 
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As a Chinese, I feel suffocated when I see these names.View attachment 1253677
These are the names of provinces rather than kingdoms, and there has never been any Shandong or Henan kingdoms. The name of a kingdom in China is a different scheme.
And the name Turan only exists in Arab records.
Actually Turan was also the official name of Timurid Empire *insert nerd emoji*
 
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Actually Turan was also the official name of Timurid Empire *insert nerd emoji*
I know another name for the Timurid Empire is Gulegan, or the Chinese way of calling it, using the capital city of Hari. But I didn't know Turan was one of its names.
 
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As a Chinese, I feel suffocated when I see these names.View attachment 1253677
These are the names of provinces rather than kingdoms, and there has never been any Shandong or Henan kingdoms. The name of a kingdom in China is a different scheme.
And the name Turan only exists in Arab records.
What would you consider instead? Looking outside of the provinces gets a bit wonky, as most of the Kingdoms either didn't exist for a very long time and/or weren't particularly affiliated with a specific set of locations. Hence I went for the provinces approach, but if implemented I don't want them to be called like the provinces are, instead they should gain a new name separate from the formable made like what generally happened (Wu -> Ming). Its just that the provinces are generally convenient for this and not much else is as far as I am aware. As for Turan, its a more succinct name for what is basically central Asia, which doesn't have an exact equivalent name in any other sense that does not also include large parts of Persia.

Only ones that which I can normally see would be Wu (generally mid-southeast), Yue (generally south), and maybe Jin (generally north central) and Wei (generally central), but what else would cover the rest of China? Perhaps I am not the best person for this task, but I do not see many better options.
 
Sure but only if it's still Plantagenet. I hate when people name any sort of Anglo-French state as the "Angevin Empire" if it's not Anjou, it's not Angevin!

Also to be honest I take back my statement of "Sure" since it shouldn't be a formable anyway. It's a collection of holdings. If the Plantagenets win the HYW they'd probably just be Kings of France and Kings of England, and frankly probably with a focus on France. If it were to be a formable it should be "Ahistorical" to reflect this IMO, since in a "plausible" world IMO they would not so easily form such a state as a unitary thing.
I mean, Spain and Poland-Lithuania are also collections of holdings that are represented as single formable countries, and why would such a thing ever be "ahistorical" when it's really just France & England if England wins the Hundred Years War and unifies the two crowns?

If anything, it's perfect for an alternative route for England as an alternative to forming Great Britain. Great Britain is England that focuses on unifying the Isles and distancing itself from the continent, while the "Angevin Empire" (or any other suitable name that doesn't demand the presence of the Angevins) is an England that remains tied to the continent by never severing its ties with French internal politics.
 
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