Tinto Talks #50 - 12th February 2025

[Aquamancer]

Latin country? My brother in Christ, read up on illyrian movement. All's i'm saying if anything it should be a different name for Yugoslavia. My point it should be a formable for anyone having certain provinces, albania, whoever.

Yeah, Illyria was commonly-used term for the Serbo-Croat lands by Slavic and non-Slavic intellectuals alike during the period of Project Caesar, thanks to Reneissance reviving it as a geographical term. Croatians, Bosnians and Serbians were frequently referred to collectively as Illyrians or Illyro-Slavs due to them living in the lands of the old Illyrians. Thanks to Illyrian Armorials, there were even nations which could be used as a base for "forming" Illyria, even if they're not recognized as accurate by modern historians. Srdjan Rudić's "The Ideology of the Illyrian Armorial" covers this topic in detail.

Spoiler: Summary of "The ideology of the Illyrian armorial"

In the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, Renaissance and Renaissance humanism in the literature led to a revived interest in history and in the study of the distribution and origin of peoples. Among the Slavic environments in Ragusa and Dalmatian coast, this gave rise to theories about Illyria and the Slavs as a once glorious people who had inhabited vast territories, akin to pan-Romanism of Italian humanists and pan-Germanism of German humanists. The Slavic humanists believed that language in a land always remains the same, with minor changes, and they therefore declared as Slavs not only the Illyrians and many other people but also the Roman emperors born on their side of the Adriatic. Juraj Šižgorić went so far as to declare Philip and Alexander of Macedon, Aristotle, 21 Roman emperors and 9 Popes to have been Slavs.

A considerable role in spreading these ideas was played by Ptolemy’s Atlas (for a long time the only geographic manual), which resulted in people living in territories of long-vanished peoples being called by their names: just as France was called Gaul and Hungarians came to be called Pannonians, the Slav-inhabited areas of the Balkan Peninsula were dubbed Illyria and Macedonia. Many intellectuals of the time called the Balkan Slavs Illyrians: Francesco Serdonati refers to rulers of Serbia, Bosnia and Croatia as Illyrians; Sabellicus' and Giovanni Musachi's works refer to Bosnia and Illyria as synonymous; Mavro Orbin claimed that the grave of a Bosnian Ban's sister described her as an Illyrian; Pope Pius II believed that Illyrians lived to the west and north of the Albanians; and Julije Balović refers to the modern Serbo-Croatian language as "Slavo-Illirico". Protestant refugees in 1560s even sought to lay the foundations of an "Illyrian" language understandable in all South-Slavic lands.

This idea of Slavic unity championed by this movement arose with the approval of the Catholic Church, which together with Austria and the Spanish court in Naples sought to stir up an uprising of the Balkan Christians against the Ottoman Empire. As such, the Church encouraged the appearance of historical constructions whose purpose was to prove an identity between Slavs and ancient Illyrians, the Slavic origin of illustrious figures of the past and the grandeur of a former Slavic state. This atmosphere is best exemplified by the Illyrian Armorials, a compilation of real and fictional South Slavic coat of arms which expressed the notion of a so-called "Illyrian Empire", a fictitious realm ruled by the Nemanjić dynasty (in essence, making Illyria analogous to the Serbian Empire). The armorial was the personal project of Petar Ohmučević, a Ragusan admiral in the Spanish navy, with the purpose of confirming his "Illyrian" nobility in order to enter Spanish chivalric orders. While the armorials can be considered fraudulent, they wound up having immense influence: it allowed Christians of the Balkans to show foreigners that they too had once had a large and glorious empire, and that their representatives were not simple peasants and commoners but descendants of the once illustrious “Illyrian” nobility.

So with all this in mind, Illyria would make sense as a period-appropriate alt-history formable for the South Slavic nations (essentially as a pre-modern Yugoslavia), as long as its historical context is made perfectly clear: had any of the South Slavic states remained independent and managed to expand, their rulers may have used the Illyrian Armories or the Slavic humanists' theories about the South Slavs' Illyrian heritage to resurrect the ancient geographical term as a catch-all term for the Serbo-Croat people (and potentially to justify the conquest of new lands).

Picture of the Illyrian Empire's coat of arms, according to the Illyrian Armorials​

 

[DominusNovus]

- Rome and Latin Empire should be Plausible, rather than Ahistorical. You put a player in Charles V’s shoes at the date of his coronation, they can probably take almost all the territory needed to form Rome.
- Can the various former Spanish colonies that initially formed confederations but broke apart (Central America, Gran Colombia) be formables?

 

[LysanderSage100]

I think being able to recreate some form of Francian tag would be interesting, Napoleon used the French claims from that to form his Empire after all. Could be interesting however for a tag France could form if they manage to conquer Germany.

 

[Watered_Down]

Suggestions (if they have not already appeared in the last 16 pages):

• A formable for a united Maghreb, if Carthage or Africa don't already refer to this. If this is what the Kingdom of Africa refers to, a dynamic name and flag if it's formed by an Arab/Berber tag or a European Christian tag would be cool, just to have Africa and Al-Maghreb be two names for the same tag.
• Yugoslavia / Illyria, in at least some form (e.g. Yugoslavia only, and only for south Slavs?)

These are both regions in EU4 where I always felt a little disappointed there wasn't a formable to congratulate players on unifying the area.

Additionally: I think "Celtica" is a bit too ahistorical as a name. I'm guessing it's a celtic British Isles (plus Brittany?) tag? I would prefer drawing more from Crusader Kings, and using the translated names of the two islands (as "Britain" would then apply to Brittany, sorta), either with "and" or a "-" between them a la Austria-Hungary. Just from google translate:

Welsh	Prydain ac Iwerddon
Cornish	Bresytyn ha Iwerdhon (?)
Breton	Breizh-Veur hag Iwerzhon
Irish Gaelic	Éire agus an Bhreatain
Scots Gaelic	Breatainn agus Èirinn
Manx	Bretin as Nerin

 

[tkusler]

no Angevin Empire??

 

[Vengirni]

Is it possible to mod a tier 6 formable tag and beyond?

 

[zeruosi]

Seljuk Empire; -- plausible

The Seljuk Empire should have been formed by a country under the rule of the Seljuk dynasty. I don't know if there were still descendants of the Seljuk dynasty in 1337..

 

[Scronix]

It would be cool to form a baltic sea empire or an east german kingdom.

 

[vyshan]

Some formable ideas for Asia
India

• Tamilkam: Plausible - Level 3
• Dravidia: Ahistorical - Level 4
• Sailan: Plausible - Level 3
• Malwa: Historical - Level 3
• Gondwana: Plausible - Level 3
• Odisha: Historical - Level 3
• Himalaya: Ahistorical - Level 3

Indonesia

• Java: Plausible - Level 3
• Kalimantan: Plausible - Level 3
• Sumatera: Plausible - Level 3
• Sulawesi: Plausible - Level 3
• Luzon: Plausible - Level 3
• Visaya: Plausible - Level 3
• Mindanao: Plausible - Level 3
• Panyupayana: Ahistorical - Level 4

 

[Ubliquous]

Shouldn't the formables depend instead on percent of development in (required) regions instead of literal location count? (ie. own 75% of dev in Scandinavia instead of 75% of locations) Dev seems more logical to me (maybe combine dev and location count? Location count on its own seems to be a bit ignorant of the possible in-game situation).

 

[frdrcse]

Mecklenburg	1

Mom we made it! I can die happy now.

 

[fredrikslicer]

Wasnt the shan confederacy actually formed irl? In like the 15th century? It should be historical

 

[OsnofSenun]

Hello I'd like to ask or suggest if Spain (The Formable) could have a different name or if there could be an ingame event to change the name depending on who In Iberia formed it. It's often been a problem I had in EU4 where If I played Portugal or Aragon for example the regional formable I had would be to form Spain. There are historical connotations with Castilian hegemony as "Spain" and would enjoy if there were options for a neutral or even regional name. I'm not suggesting necessarily an additional formable but the option for the name itself to be different since "Spain" tends to have connotations to the real Spain.

I would like to know if options like Iberia as a neutral name or even Lusitania for Portugal were considered/could be considered

 

[SAmaster]

Hmm, I know that's a picture of the Boston Tea Party as a header, but I am curious to see exactly how the American Revolution will go in-game. It might have been inevitable that there would be some kind of separation, even if it was only the one that eventually happened with Canada, Australia, etc. in our timeline, but for it to happen as it did required some very specific circumstances.

For one, all of the colonies being contiguous, which is by no means a guarantee here. Also, specific protectionist economic policies leading up to it, and new ones imposed as a result of Britain's debt due to a recent war (which the colonies, as vassals, had to join), which was combined with a limit on the area of permitted settlement. Among other things, such as the political philosophy in vogue at the time. Remove any of that and it doesn't happen the same way, and that changes the whole set of dominoes leading to the French Revolution and beyond. Remind me, was that a potential "disaster" (for Britain)?

Here's my proposal based on currently known mechanics-

American Revolution should be a 'situation' that occurs when the Enlightenment reaches the New World. I don't know if there'll be mechanics for Britain having 13 different colonies in the New World, but if there are then this situation would have them form the US (with maybe options for some states instead becoming vassals of the US to represent demanding greater autonomy depending on how things play out in the leadup).

Once the situation kicks off you'd have the colonies in North America get events demanding more autonomy and representation that the overlord (Britain but maybe other nations given-alt-hist-scenarios like France) can reply to. Having large amounts of debt or corruption should make giving in to these demands really unattractive, as the corruption of Parliament made the idea of giving colonies parliamentary representation laughable (outside of the physical distance problem) and the extreme debt the British were in due to the French and Indian War made keeping the colonies subservient and overly taxed the most important thing. But there should be a scenario where the colonies are reformed as the United States or maybe just a unified colony under the Overlord (Britain) as a vassal, as this was the original demand of the revolutionaries even after the outbreak of war- the founders offered to surrender in exchange for more autonomy under the UK, and only after this was rejected did they demand full independence.

There should also be events that happen in other colonies- revolutionary fervor was just as high as in Bermuda, their geographic remoteness is what kept them from joining the Revolution, and the Americans had an ill-fated expedition to Canada to try to liberate them. Problem being the French were suspicious of the Revolutionaries, and the English colonists were much more recent and had closer ties to Britain. But in an alt-hist scenario things could have played out very differently. Similarly though, revolutionary fervor should be highest in the oldest and most urbanized colonies (our timeline the north) while more recent colonies would support the Overlord more (in our timeline the South was most recently settled and it's where the majority of royalist/tory support was- and towards the end of the War the British tried consolidating the south thinking they might keep at least those colonies- this too should be kept as a possible scenario).

Once war breaks out the overlords rivals should get the option to aid the Revolution in several ways, sending money, advisors (Marquis de Lafayette) and of course joining in on the conflict to dunk on the Overlord. However consequences of this is that the revolution might bounce back on you in your territories. And it's not just European Powers that get keyed into the Revolution- several Native American tribes sided with the British or the Revolutionaries, this should be represented too. A small bit of flavor, but it's said the Iroquois were in the next room over when the founders were making the constitution as they were more practiced in Democracy (having had a functional democracy for a few hundred years at that point) to give notes to the framers, this would be great to reference in some way.

Another alt-hist scenario to consider- if enlightened democracy has been embraced in Europe by a major nation then it should spread revolutionary ideals in the New World faster (if it's been done in say France, then american colonists are gonna be more vocal in demanding it in their territories). Conversely- if the overlord is highly absolutist (again France) I'd say this should make revolutionary fervor in the colonies much stronger- OTL the Americans wanted representation in Parliament. Well- if the overlord has gotten rid of Parliament or never had it, then independence seems like the swifter path to democratic representation.

This situation should also come with a lot of flavor events. Like the formations of the Continental Army and Continental Navy, crazy John Paul Jones going to privateer the British, framing of the constitution and declaration of independence, Ben Franklin partying it up in Paris, the fate of slaves.

Sidebar on that last bit, both sides offered to free slaves that fought for their cause- you should get options of how much to do this for both sides, naturally the only acceptable option should be MAXIMUM FREEDOM but OTL the British actually freed more slaves and after the Revolution they were given land in Nova Scotia. Which sucked because it was Nova Scotia, but the British upheld their part of the bargain. This should also be represented with if the overlord looses the war that population settles in other colonies (or maybe for some real alt-history, if you lack other colonies you can bring them over to Europe). Likewise several American Royalists (this part gets glossed over often) left the US territories to go settle in Canada helping form a lot of their national identity. So being on the losing end of the war for the Overlord would probably have a number of these events (functionally they'd probably be pretty similar, but for flavors sake I think the one regarding freed slaves that fought in the war should have some unique text).

 

[EntertainmentSeeker]

Is it possible for pops in the game to commit crimes? This could add a lot of flavor to the game.
The dissatisfaction of pops could result in crimes and riots, separate from rebellions. An interesting idea is that in locations of low control and the presence of fairly dissatisfied pops (perhaps due to starvation), the rate of crimes/riots are increased. Such a thing can have devastating impacts such as money stolen from the player's treasury, murders (which can be represented by the pops in the location being reduced by a percentage, development going down instead of merely stagnating, constructions being paused, etc.
When you quell these riots and imprison the criminals and rioters (which can be taken from a percentage of the pops in question in the location the crime/riot is committed), I think there might be flavorful mechanics that can be added as a new pop: prisoners. You could pardon them (at the displeasure of another pop group) enlist them in the military as a special unit that while bolstering your numbers may not be a particularly good unit, have them work in construction or resource gathering (which can move the societal values toward serfdom), have them migrate to colonies, execute them (which might shift the societal values and cause further dissatisfaction from the pop group and encourage satisfaction from other pops).
In the event a location with a prison (a building that would need to be built to house prisoners) is occupied by a hostile army, they can even join the hostile army.

 

[Chaos Volunteer]

I would like to see Occitania tier 2, probably ahistorical though.

Occitania should be plausible, because after Napoleonic wars there was an actual plan to divide France into 5 smaller countries as a punishment
(with different parts corresponding to different ethnicities, i.e. Occitans, Bretons, Normans and so on.)
The plan wasnt realised because GB got bribed by France and opposed it wehemently, but the possibility was there.

 

[zeruosi]

What about tier 6 Imperium of Mankind?

Alternative to a republican system of government: UNE Earth United Nations

 

[SauronGorthaur]

United Kingdom is additional flavor for the Great Britain tag

Does the same apply to Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and Poland-Lithuania? Also, is there any option to add a tag for a unified realm of all Slavs? Would be ahistorical and T4, I suppose. Though that'd prevent Russia from forming it. Then again it could be seen as a long term alternative pursuit for Russia.

 

[SAmaster]

Why would the Roman Empire form Roman Empire?

Byzantium is Rome 2: Electric Boogaloo. But things are best in trilogies. Who doesn't want to form Rome 3: Revenge of the Sith?

 

[Atromb]

Shouldn't the two sicilies be a tier 2 formable so they can form Italy?
I would also suggest adding Morocco as a formable and renaming the starting marinid realm to Fas, in a similar style to how Egypt is a formable to the mameluks.
Also in north Africa I believe "The Maghreb" should be a tier 3 formable nation.
"The caliphate" could also be a tier 5 formable for islamic nations if you conquer everything from morocco to persia.