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Tinto Talks #50 - 12th February 2025

Hey everyone, and welcome back. Johan is busy today (allegedly) so instead I will walk you through this Tinto Talks on Formable Countries in our little project called Caesar. It’s a fairly tight feature so this should be nice and quick.



What are Formable Countries?

Basically, formable countries are new tags that you can switch to. Typically they represent historical unions and conquests, but some represent aspirations that never materialised.

Generally speaking, the vision behind Formables is to offer roleplaying and historical immersion, and support player fantasies, rather than modifier stacking. They will change your country name, national flag, and map color. So while you may unlock some content such as advances or other minor unique content, the tag change is often the goal in itself.

Screenshot 2025-02-12 113332.png
Screenshot 2025-02-12 112612.png

Spain gets some unique advances in the later ages, but not all do.

Rather than your country changing automatically every age, you achieve it by completing certain objectives. Usually, you'll need to control a certain percentage of a predefined set of locations, for example Scandinavia needs 75% of the locations in the Scandinavia region.

There’s typically additional requirements as well such as your Primary Culture belonging to a certain Culture Group. Forming Spain also requires you and all the independent countries in Iberia to be Christian, as it is thematically closely tied to the completion of the Reconquista. Iberian Muslims have the reverse rules for forming Al-Andalus.

Some are directly tied to actions in International Organizations, like the Holy Roman Empire or the Ilkhanate.

Formables also have a Tier that represents their natural order of precedence. You can only form countries that are the same or higher tier than you. For example, England (Tier 2) can form Great Britain (Tier 3) but Great Britain can’t form England. The AI will only form countries that are a higher tier.


Screenshot 2025-02-12 124554.png

Country formation is just a click away.


There are 3 settings to the relevant game rule.
  1. Only Historical Formable Countries
    1. Only countries that actually formed in the game’s time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Spain and Great Britain
  2. Allow Plausible Formable Countries(Default)
    1. Countries that could plausible have formed, or formed just after the time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Germany and Italy
  3. Allow Ahistorical Formable Countries
    1. Aspirational or fantasy countries can be formed. Examples include
      1. North Sea Empire (which is a Tier IV) if you control Britain and Scandinavia
      2. Europa (Tier V)



Screenshot 2025-02-12 121247.png

Some countries have different flags depending on the exact manner in which they are formed. For example this variant of the Union Jack with a dominant saltire when you start as Scotland.


1739361227786.png

And some formables come with little treats to sweeten the deal.


Screenshot 2025-02-12 123920.png

The Teutonic Order has a long way to go before they can become Prussia…


Screenshot 2025-02-12 124144.png

But it might be worth it…


Screenshot 2025-02-12 121702.png

Some exist to fulfil common player fantasies, but only appear if the player chooses in the Game Rules to have the less historical ones.



This is our current list of formable countries, let us know which ones you would like us add!

FormableTierNote
Europa5Ahistorical
Rome4Ahistorical
Hindustan4Plausible
Holy Roman Empire4Plausible
Byzantium4
Ilkhanate4
Iran4
Mongolia4
Mughals4
Rûm4
Russia4
United States4
Celtica3Ahistorical
Latin Empire3Ahistorical
North Sea3Ahistorical
Al-Andalus3Plausible
Arabia3Plausible
Canada3Plausible
Egypt3Plausible
Germany3Plausible
Italy3Plausible
Malaya3Plausible
Ruthenia3Plausible
Scandinavia3Plausible
Shan3Plausible
Banten3
Bengal3
Deccan3
Delhi3
Ethiopia3
Great Britain3
Gujurat3
Hausa3
Inca3
Kongo3
Manchu3
Maratha3
Mexico3
Poland-Lithuania3
Punjab3
Rajput3
Siam3
Sokoto3
Spain3
Timurids3
Two Sicilies3
Yamato3
Africa2Ahistorical
Carthage2Ahistorical
Hen Ogledd2Ahistorical
Aotearoa2Plausible
Greece2Plausible
Jerusalem2Plausible
Livonia2Plausible
Maya2Plausible
Albania2
Armenia2
Austria2
Ayutthaya2
Bahamis2
England2
Georgia2
Golden Horde2
Holstein2
Ireland2
Navarre2
Nepal2
Netherlands2
Poland2
Prussia2
Scotland2
Serbia2
Sweden2
Switzerland2
Tibet2
Wales2
Connacht1Plausible
Ulster1Plausible
Aïr1
Bavaria1
Beja1
Mazovia1
Mecklenburg1
Mossi1
Nassau1
Northumbria1
Pomerania1
Sardinia1
Saxony1
Silesia1


That's it for today's dev diary. Thanks for reading, and we'll see you next time, where we will talk about Subject Types, and an interesting part of the Castilian player fantasy…
 
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Why is Rûm Tier 4? Is it purely to let the Ottomans be able to form them or something? It's absolutely wild that Rûm is a Tier 4 formable next to the Roman Empire, Hindustan, Mongolia, and Russia AND they're above Germany, Italy, Al-Andalus, Great Britain, Spain, Timurids, Spain, and the Golden Horde. They've only held land in Anatolia and got smacked by Mongols lmao. Unless they're way broken I don't see why keep them as tier 4. Ottomans shouldn't be able to form them anyway, and it should be a nice stepping stone for any other Turkish state. Unless by Rûm you mean a proper Muslim Roman Empire instead of the Seljuks of Rûm. Then, it can make sense I guess
 
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Rome being ahistorical means that you cannot form Roman Empire with standard game rules.

Is this even a Paradox game???

I feel like humilate rival cb shock in eu4 after a war for conquest will be in the form of unable to click form Rome after 20 hours of gameplay lol
 
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I love the list!
And i see Bulgaria already in 1337:
View attachment 1253676
You also see Serbia in 1337. Bulgaria should be on the list for the fact that Bulgaria in 50 years breaks up into several smaller states that should have the ability to re-form into Bulgaria, just as Serbia breaks up into smaller states that should have the ability to re-form Serbia.
 
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What about the American countries? The only one I saw was US, which I would love to remove and get the rest.

Also, maybe add in the Peru-Bolivia Confederation. I know its at the end but they do show up in the timeframe.
 
It’s really weird seeing some formables only being tier 2s like Africa or Carthage while the Kongo is a tier 3. Wouldn’t they normally be higher? Also it’s weird not seeing some nations from eu4 in there like Lotharingia. I also assume the teutons can get out of their ranking and go higher to empire like eu4 if they don’t want to form Prussia? Not to mention I think the Aztec should be formable too if they get wiped out? Or something like that? One other thing I noticed is Yamato is a formable tag? Why when the other Japanese tags aren’t? Not even Japan itself is a formable? Lastly no Kingdom of God? That’s heresy!
 
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Hey everyone, and welcome back. Johan is busy today (allegedly) so instead I will walk you through this Tinto Talks on Formable Countries in our little project called Caesar. It’s a fairly tight feature so this should be nice and quick.



What are Formable Countries?

Basically, formable countries are new tags that you can switch to. Typically they represent historical unions and conquests, but some represent aspirations that never materialised.

Generally speaking, the vision behind Formables is to offer roleplaying and historical immersion, and support player fantasies, rather than modifier stacking. They will change your country name, national flag, and map color. So while you may unlock some content such as advances or other minor unique content, the tag change is often the goal in itself.

View attachment 1253582View attachment 1253583
Spain gets some unique advances in the later ages, but not all do.

Rather than your country changing automatically every age, you achieve it by completing certain objectives. Usually, you'll need to control a certain percentage of a predefined set of locations, for example Scandinavia needs 75% of the locations in the Scandinavia region.

There’s typically additional requirements as well such as your Primary Culture belonging to a certain Culture Group. Forming Spain also requires you and all the independent countries in Iberia to be Christian, as it is thematically closely tied to the completion of the Reconquista. Iberian Muslims have the reverse rules for forming Al-Andalus.

Some are directly tied to actions in International Organizations, like the Holy Roman Empire or the Ilkhanate.

Formables also have a Tier that represents their natural order of precedence. You can only form countries that are the same or higher tier than you. For example, England (Tier 2) can form Great Britain (Tier 3) but Great Britain can’t form England. The AI will only form countries that are a higher tier.


View attachment 1253586
Country formation is just a click away.


There are 3 settings to the relevant game rule.
  1. Only Historical Formable Countries
    1. Only countries that actually formed in the game’s time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Spain and Great Britain
  2. Allow Plausible Formable Countries(Default)
    1. Countries that could plausible have formed, or formed just after the time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Germany and Italy
  3. Allow Ahistorical Formable Countries
    1. Aspirational or fantasy countries can be formed. Examples include
      1. North Sea Empire (which is a Tier IV) if you control Britain and Scandinavia
      2. Europa (Tier V)



View attachment 1253589
Some countries have different flags depending on the exact manner in which they are formed. For example this variant of the Union Jack with a dominant saltire when you start as Scotland.


View attachment 1253591
And some formables come with little treats to sweeten the deal.


View attachment 1253592
The Teutonic Order has a long way to go before they can become Prussia…


View attachment 1253593
But it might be worth it…


View attachment 1253594
Some exist to fulfil common player fantasies, but only appear if the player chooses in the Game Rules to have the less historical ones.



This is our current list of formable countries, let us know which ones you would like us add!

FormableTierNote
Europa5Ahistorical
Rome4Ahistorical
Hindustan4Plausible
Holy Roman Empire4Plausible
Byzantium4
Ilkhanate4
Iran4
Mongolia4
Mughals4
Rûm4
Russia4
United States4
Celtica3Ahistorical
Latin Empire3Ahistorical
North Sea3Ahistorical
Al-Andalus3Plausible
Arabia3Plausible
Canada3Plausible
Egypt3Plausible
Germany3Plausible
Italy3Plausible
Malaya3Plausible
Ruthenia3Plausible
Scandinavia3Plausible
Shan3Plausible
Banten3
Bengal3
Deccan3
Delhi3
Ethiopia3
Great Britain3
Gujurat3
Hausa3
Inca3
Kongo3
Manchu3
Maratha3
Mexico3
Poland-Lithuania3
Punjab3
Rajput3
Siam3
Sokoto3
Spain3
Timurids3
Two Sicilies3
Yamato3
Africa2Ahistorical
Carthage2Ahistorical
Hen Ogledd2Ahistorical
Aotearoa2Plausible
Greece2Plausible
Jerusalem2Plausible
Livonia2Plausible
Maya2Plausible
Albania2
Armenia2
Austria2
Ayutthaya2
Bahamis2
England2
Georgia2
Golden Horde2
Holstein2
Ireland2
Navarre2
Nepal2
Netherlands2
Poland2
Prussia2
Scotland2
Serbia2
Sweden2
Switzerland2
Tibet2
Wales2
Connacht1Plausible
Ulster1Plausible
Aïr1
Bavaria1
Beja1
Mazovia1
Mecklenburg1
Mossi1
Nassau1
Northumbria1
Pomerania1
Sardinia1
Saxony1
Silesia1


That's it for today's dev diary. Thanks for reading, and we'll see you next time, where we will talk about Subject Types, and an interesting part of the Castilian player fantasy…
Hey everyone, and welcome back. Johan is busy today (allegedly) so instead I will walk you through this Tinto Talks on Formable Countries in our little project called Caesar. It’s a fairly tight feature so this should be nice and quick.



What are Formable Countries?

Basically, formable countries are new tags that you can switch to. Typically they represent historical unions and conquests, but some represent aspirations that never materialised.

Generally speaking, the vision behind Formables is to offer roleplaying and historical immersion, and support player fantasies, rather than modifier stacking. They will change your country name, national flag, and map color. So while you may unlock some content such as advances or other minor unique content, the tag change is often the goal in itself.

View attachment 1253582View attachment 1253583
Spain gets some unique advances in the later ages, but not all do.

Rather than your country changing automatically every age, you achieve it by completing certain objectives. Usually, you'll need to control a certain percentage of a predefined set of locations, for example Scandinavia needs 75% of the locations in the Scandinavia region.

There’s typically additional requirements as well such as your Primary Culture belonging to a certain Culture Group. Forming Spain also requires you and all the independent countries in Iberia to be Christian, as it is thematically closely tied to the completion of the Reconquista. Iberian Muslims have the reverse rules for forming Al-Andalus.

Some are directly tied to actions in International Organizations, like the Holy Roman Empire or the Ilkhanate.

Formables also have a Tier that represents their natural order of precedence. You can only form countries that are the same or higher tier than you. For example, England (Tier 2) can form Great Britain (Tier 3) but Great Britain can’t form England. The AI will only form countries that are a higher tier.


View attachment 1253586
Country formation is just a click away.


There are 3 settings to the relevant game rule.
  1. Only Historical Formable Countries
    1. Only countries that actually formed in the game’s time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Spain and Great Britain
  2. Allow Plausible Formable Countries(Default)
    1. Countries that could plausible have formed, or formed just after the time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Germany and Italy
  3. Allow Ahistorical Formable Countries
    1. Aspirational or fantasy countries can be formed. Examples include
      1. North Sea Empire (which is a Tier IV) if you control Britain and Scandinavia
      2. Europa (Tier V)



View attachment 1253589
Some countries have different flags depending on the exact manner in which they are formed. For example this variant of the Union Jack with a dominant saltire when you start as Scotland.


View attachment 1253591
And some formables come with little treats to sweeten the deal.


View attachment 1253592
The Teutonic Order has a long way to go before they can become Prussia…


View attachment 1253593
But it might be worth it…


View attachment 1253594
Some exist to fulfil common player fantasies, but only appear if the player chooses in the Game Rules to have the less historical ones.



This is our current list of formable countries, let us know which ones you would like us add!

FormableTierNote
Europa5Ahistorical
Rome4Ahistorical
Hindustan4Plausible
Holy Roman Empire4Plausible
Byzantium4
Ilkhanate4
Iran4
Mongolia4
Mughals4
Rûm4
Russia4
United States4
Celtica3Ahistorical
Latin Empire3Ahistorical
North Sea3Ahistorical
Al-Andalus3Plausible
Arabia3Plausible
Canada3Plausible
Egypt3Plausible
Germany3Plausible
Italy3Plausible
Malaya3Plausible
Ruthenia3Plausible
Scandinavia3Plausible
Shan3Plausible
Banten3
Bengal3
Deccan3
Delhi3
Ethiopia3
Great Britain3
Gujurat3
Hausa3
Inca3
Kongo3
Manchu3
Maratha3
Mexico3
Poland-Lithuania3
Punjab3
Rajput3
Siam3
Sokoto3
Spain3
Timurids3
Two Sicilies3
Yamato3
Africa2Ahistorical
Carthage2Ahistorical
Hen Ogledd2Ahistorical
Aotearoa2Plausible
Greece2Plausible
Jerusalem2Plausible
Livonia2Plausible
Maya2Plausible
Albania2
Armenia2
Austria2
Ayutthaya2
Bahamis2
England2
Georgia2
Golden Horde2
Holstein2
Ireland2
Navarre2
Nepal2
Netherlands2
Poland2
Prussia2
Scotland2
Serbia2
Sweden2
Switzerland2
Tibet2
Wales2
Connacht1Plausible
Ulster1Plausible
Aïr1
Bavaria1
Beja1
Mazovia1
Mecklenburg1
Mossi1
Nassau1
Northumbria1
Pomerania1
Sardinia1
Saxony1
Silesia1


That's it for today's dev diary. Thanks for reading, and we'll see you next time, where we will talk about Subject Types, and an interesting part of the Castilian player fantasy…
Here are 30 ideas in no particular order: (Sorry if some of these have already been mentioned in the dev diary or if other people have given the same ideas before me)

1. Turkey (A modern Turkish state could arise from a plausible late game collapse of the Ottoman Empire)
2. Volga Bulgaria (A historic state that existed for centuries before being conquered by the mongols. It's not the most plausible thing ever, but some of the tatar tribes in the steppe might view themselves as descendents of this medieval state and might want to restore it, even if in name only. Also the predecessor to Volga Bulgaria, Great Old Bulgaria could be a thing as well)
3. Latin Empire (By the time the game begins the Latin Empire has basically dissolved, but purely theoretically if the knights somehow retook Constantinople they could restore it)
4. Romania (It's plausible since it appeared in real life only a few decades after the timeframe of this game)
5. Danubian Federation (Ideas for a state like this became very popular among some intellectuals in the 19th century, this barely fits the game's timeframe, but I believe it to be a realistic ahistorical idea)
6. Dacia (Because it's somewhat plausible that a very patriotic romanian government might want to rename the nation to this in the late game)
7. Odrysian kingdom/Odrysia (Same reason as Dacia but it can be created by patriotic greeks, bulgarians or even turks claiming to be ancient thracians. Calling it simply Thrace is also an alternative, but in my opinion that's the more boring option)
8. Illyria (Same thing as the previous two but for patriotic croatians, bosnians and albanians)
9. Persia (An ahistoric resotration of ancient Persia would be cool)
10. Bulgaria (A more modern bulgarian state could plausibly arise like it did in real life in the 19th century)
10.5. Bulgarian Empire (Might be redundant as the Bulgarian state at the start of the game claims to be an empire, but it was an empire only in name, especially by 1337. So maybe there should be an ahistoric option for a proper rsetoration of the bulgarian empire)
11. Japan (I know you have Yamato in the game, but to me this signifies a monarchist, traditionalist Japan with less western influence, so what about the plausible option to create a more historical secularised modern Japan as an alternative?)
12. Cumania (I know it's not the most plausible thing ever, but bringing it back would be cool since it was a powerhouse in the pre-mongol steppe)
13. Khazaria (Same reason as Cumania)
14. Transylvania (Would be cool if we could form it as its own state)
15. Macedonia (It's plausible that in an alternate universe some greeks or other groups might want to restore ancient macedon, but this might be too spicy because of the politics of the Balkans irl so not sure if you want to include it in the game)
16. Yugoslavia (It was a concept in the 19th century long before it became a real state. It's plausible for such a pannationalist concept to arise in an alternate timeline by the late game)
17. Croatia (A modern Croatian state, also Bosnia could be a thing or would that be too controversial as well?)
18. Slovenia (A modern Slovenian state)
19. Slovakia (A modern Sloavk state)
20. Latvia (Should be formable as a separate thing from Livonia)
21. Angevin Empire (It should be formable if England takes over France)
22. Bulgarian-Romanian state (It's an ahistorical idea, but I've read that it was proposed a few times in real life just like Yugoslavia and the Danubian federation so why not?)
23. Mayan state (The mayans should be able to unite into one nation. But in my opinion there should also be, and additional Mayan state which could form in case the mayans free themselves after being ruled over by the spanish and after becoming permanently influenced by them)
24. Belarus (Plausible?)
25. Zapadoslavia (An ahistorical state similar to Yugoslavia, but for Western slavs)
26. Assyirian empire (An interesting ahistorical option that many people will like)
27. United Slavia (A state for all slavs)
28. United Germania (A state for all germanics)
29. Third Rome (Many states have historically claimed to be the Third Rome, why not make it into an ahistoric option.
I belive it should be separate from Rome proper as it's not so much an attempt to literally recreate the real Roman empire, but instead an attempt to continue it's legacy in a new way. It's aslo different from Byzantium which was the second Rome)
30. Egypt (An ahistoric restoration of ancient egypt)
 
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FormableTypeReason
Gran-ColombiaHistoricalFormed in 1821, formable for post-colonial nations
Peru-Bolivian ConfederationHistoricalFormed in 1836, formable for post-colonial nations, interesting type of government, loose confederation that would work as the HRE, or even personal union between republics.
ArlesPausibleWas a Kingdom prior to the startdate, exist in base eu4 and CK2/3 (as Burgundy)
CarpathiaAhistoricalSolely geographical formable tag for the Balkans after the Danube.
 
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Why Banten is formable? Banten was a conquered vassal of Sunda who famously got conquered because they were Hindu, and later, tried to restore "Sunda" since they became the claimants of the throne. Doesn't make any sense they became formable, if anything, they should be their own tag, and Sunda should be reformable.

And Srivijaya should definitely be a tag and a tier above Malaya (I personally thing Malaya in tier 3 is kinda too big despite their territory was only the Malay peninsula and Eastern Sumatra), as Malaya was under Srivijaya Mandala before breaking away (or rather, Srivijaya Mandala waned).

I would also like to strongly dissuade you from making Javanese tags to focus on forming Malaya like you did in EU4 because that doesn't make any sense when Majapahit was technically Srivijaya cousins and they were wrestling the hegemony between the islands as EQUALS.

Then, Nusantara should be the tag for the Java tags, and Sumatra tags, and it should be a tier above Srivijaya because Nusantara actually referred to Majapahit's territory during their zenith which encompasses most of the SEA Maritime (which is technically currently being debated by Indonesian scholars, but we don't talk about that)

Vassal/Releasable/separatist Banten & Sundatier 1 & 2 respectivelySunda is Reformable
Malayatier 2Sumatra and Malayan Peninsula, Plausible
Srivijayatier 3Sumatra, Malayan Peninsula, West Borneo, and West Java , Plausible
Nusantaratier 4The entire Malayan Archipelago (minus Philipines if that needs to be stated), Ahistorical
CholaTier 4 (can be tier 3 depending on the game decision on how to interpret this empire actual size)East India & SEA


Edit: I just remembered Chola was also a great formable tag connecting between SEA and South India.
Edit: Adding the tag suggestions table
 
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@SaintDaveUK I'm curious about the fact that Byzantine is among the formative countries, if Austria, Tyrol, Salzburg, Hungary, Croatia, etc. are destroyed, will it be possible for smaller countries with right primary cultures and possessing of areas to re-establish them?
 
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Please no Austria-Hungary “formable”. The conditions for the formation of Austria-Hungary are extremely unlikely to happen for a game that starts in 1337, and even more unlikely to happen before the game end date. Not to mention the Austria-Hungary formable would pretty much just be giving more Autonomy to Hungary to not have to deal with possible revolts. In game this would be portrayed by “Well, my empire is too multiethnic and unstable, guess I’ll release a country so I won’t have to deal with that part of the empire as much”.
fair point
 
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Good evening.
You should allow Ukraine also with Zaporozhian/Kiev hetmanates to form. Also, as a Pole, I'd suggest to change the name from Poland-Lithuania, Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth or Commonwealth to Commonwealth of Both Nations. This is the name as used in Polish(Rzeczpospolita Obojga Narodów), Lithuanian(Abiejų Tautų Respublika) as well as in then officiall language of the country latin: Res Publica Utriusque Nationis and it was the most used name for this country at that time from 1580s to 1795.

It's the most suitable name. When you will type that in the browser google won't be confused, so an English person won't be confused either.
Also the name doesn't suggest Poland is an overlordship of Lithuania but a 1:1 partner - it's more accurate for the future gameplay. Won't be confusing.
This name was also preferably used by Polish writer and historian Paweł Jasienica. E.g. in his book: "The Commonwealth of Both Nations: The Silver Age (English and Polish Edition)"

Greetings from Poland.
 
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