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Tinto Talks #50 - 12th February 2025

Hey everyone, and welcome back. Johan is busy today (allegedly) so instead I will walk you through this Tinto Talks on Formable Countries in our little project called Caesar. It’s a fairly tight feature so this should be nice and quick.



What are Formable Countries?

Basically, formable countries are new tags that you can switch to. Typically they represent historical unions and conquests, but some represent aspirations that never materialised.

Generally speaking, the vision behind Formables is to offer roleplaying and historical immersion, and support player fantasies, rather than modifier stacking. They will change your country name, national flag, and map color. So while you may unlock some content such as advances or other minor unique content, the tag change is often the goal in itself.

Screenshot 2025-02-12 113332.png
Screenshot 2025-02-12 112612.png

Spain gets some unique advances in the later ages, but not all do.

Rather than your country changing automatically every age, you achieve it by completing certain objectives. Usually, you'll need to control a certain percentage of a predefined set of locations, for example Scandinavia needs 75% of the locations in the Scandinavia region.

There’s typically additional requirements as well such as your Primary Culture belonging to a certain Culture Group. Forming Spain also requires you and all the independent countries in Iberia to be Christian, as it is thematically closely tied to the completion of the Reconquista. Iberian Muslims have the reverse rules for forming Al-Andalus.

Some are directly tied to actions in International Organizations, like the Holy Roman Empire or the Ilkhanate.

Formables also have a Tier that represents their natural order of precedence. You can only form countries that are the same or higher tier than you. For example, England (Tier 2) can form Great Britain (Tier 3) but Great Britain can’t form England. The AI will only form countries that are a higher tier.


Screenshot 2025-02-12 124554.png

Country formation is just a click away.


There are 3 settings to the relevant game rule.
  1. Only Historical Formable Countries
    1. Only countries that actually formed in the game’s time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Spain and Great Britain
  2. Allow Plausible Formable Countries(Default)
    1. Countries that could plausible have formed, or formed just after the time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Germany and Italy
  3. Allow Ahistorical Formable Countries
    1. Aspirational or fantasy countries can be formed. Examples include
      1. North Sea Empire (which is a Tier IV) if you control Britain and Scandinavia
      2. Europa (Tier V)



Screenshot 2025-02-12 121247.png

Some countries have different flags depending on the exact manner in which they are formed. For example this variant of the Union Jack with a dominant saltire when you start as Scotland.


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And some formables come with little treats to sweeten the deal.


Screenshot 2025-02-12 123920.png

The Teutonic Order has a long way to go before they can become Prussia…


Screenshot 2025-02-12 124144.png

But it might be worth it…


Screenshot 2025-02-12 121702.png

Some exist to fulfil common player fantasies, but only appear if the player chooses in the Game Rules to have the less historical ones.



This is our current list of formable countries, let us know which ones you would like us add!

FormableTierNote
Europa5Ahistorical
Rome4Ahistorical
Hindustan4Plausible
Holy Roman Empire4Plausible
Byzantium4
Ilkhanate4
Iran4
Mongolia4
Mughals4
Rûm4
Russia4
United States4
Celtica3Ahistorical
Latin Empire3Ahistorical
North Sea3Ahistorical
Al-Andalus3Plausible
Arabia3Plausible
Canada3Plausible
Egypt3Plausible
Germany3Plausible
Italy3Plausible
Malaya3Plausible
Ruthenia3Plausible
Scandinavia3Plausible
Shan3Plausible
Banten3
Bengal3
Deccan3
Delhi3
Ethiopia3
Great Britain3
Gujurat3
Hausa3
Inca3
Kongo3
Manchu3
Maratha3
Mexico3
Poland-Lithuania3
Punjab3
Rajput3
Siam3
Sokoto3
Spain3
Timurids3
Two Sicilies3
Yamato3
Africa2Ahistorical
Carthage2Ahistorical
Hen Ogledd2Ahistorical
Aotearoa2Plausible
Greece2Plausible
Jerusalem2Plausible
Livonia2Plausible
Maya2Plausible
Albania2
Armenia2
Austria2
Ayutthaya2
Bahamis2
England2
Georgia2
Golden Horde2
Holstein2
Ireland2
Navarre2
Nepal2
Netherlands2
Poland2
Prussia2
Scotland2
Serbia2
Sweden2
Switzerland2
Tibet2
Wales2
Connacht1Plausible
Ulster1Plausible
Aïr1
Bavaria1
Beja1
Mazovia1
Mecklenburg1
Mossi1
Nassau1
Northumbria1
Pomerania1
Sardinia1
Saxony1
Silesia1


That's it for today's dev diary. Thanks for reading, and we'll see you next time, where we will talk about Subject Types, and an interesting part of the Castilian player fantasy…
 
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It represents the reformation of the medieval Sicilian Kingdom of "Africa" (Tunisia and neighbouring parts)
Could you add some naming options for when that's formed? Just so that it becomes less confusing if say a textbox starts talking about 'the African Kingdom of Africa' or some-such. Like an alternate spelling or some such.
 
Would you consider adding United Kingdom finally as the tier about Great Britain? With the final tier needing to do things with Ireland.
 
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There should be a united polynesia tag as a tier above Aotearoa(ahistorical ofc). A chinese borneo formable would be also cool(iirc VIC3 has this one). Also i don't know how you are handling the Serbian Empire but one of the names people called it was "Empire of Serbs and Greeks" could maybe add that as a formable if you managed to take all of greece and serbia as serbia.
 
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Anglo-Irish tags yes, as they are part of the British Culture Group. The native Irish culture cannot form Great Britain.
Is there still this nonsense of 'Lowlander (English)' culture and 'Highlander (Celtic)' culture? I think I could accept it so long as one of the two is one of the 'hybrid' cultures keeping them in the same group. Either Lowlander (English) inside the Celtic group, or what I'd prefer Highlander (Celtic) in the English group.
 
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I don't know that I like the tier system. The way it worked in Victoria 3 resulted in a lot of really asinine things like the decision to form Yemen being broken for all of the Yemeni tags for a while.

I really hope the AI is good at prioritizing these, because the way AI prioritizes its decisions in EU4 resulted in a lot of wonky outcomes there. Colonial Nations that owned the whole Louisiana Territory would always form Illinois and countries that owned the entire eastern seaboard would always choose Florida first because they were first in its decision list. This was worked around by making it so that the form United States decision isn't removed when they do one of these formations, but mega Illinois persisted.

Hen Ogledd did surprise me though, even if the "Celtica" name is very silly to me.
 
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For the list of formable countries, I would suggest adding

Burgundy-Arles
Lotharingia

Burgundy-Arles in particular should be added because the HRE was legally viewed as a union of three kingdoms, Germany, Italy, and Burgundy. That's why the HRE had three ecclesiastical electors: Mainz, Cologne, and Trier were the arch-chancellors of Germany, Italy, and Burgundy respectively. So a restored Kingdom of Burgundy would not be implausible at all.
Even less implausible as it is completely historical at game start : Humbert, the last dauphin of Viennois actively tried to be recognized & crowned king of Burgundy by the archbishop in Vienne. If the map & setup for Dauphiné & Savoie were corrected (wouldn't work as it was presented in the tinto maps as it used the post-1355 borders and Vienne isn't even a tag) and the hundred years delphino-savoyard war was portrayed, then it could be an ambitious path for regional tags like the Viennois-Forez-Auvergne dynastic group or even Savoie (as winning the war would mean they wouldnt necessarily abandon their westward ambitions as they did historically after 1355). Win the war, control Vienne, Lausanne and the three major political capitals inbetween (Grenoble, Montmélian & Annecy), get your crown. Actually sounds easy (but went horribly wrong historically).
 
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For Tier IV I'd suggest a country Zapadoslavia to form (uniting Czech/Slovak/Polish/Polabian/Sorbian (Western Slavs)
<I respectfully disagree with you disrespectfully disagreeing guys>
 
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FormableRule
Austrian Empire
Bulgaria / Bulgarian EmpirePlausible / Ahistorical?
Cambodia
Cossack Hetmanate
Crimean Khanate
Denmark-Norway
Ducal Prussia
FinlandPlausible
Great MoraviaAhistorical
Greenland - Already in the gameAhistorical
IberiaPlausible / Ahistorical?
Kalmar UnionAhistorical
Kingdom of Merina / Madagascar
Laos
PhilippinesPlausible
Poland-SwedenPlausible / Ahistorical?
Qara Qoyunlu
RomaniaPlausible
Russian Empire
RûmAhistorical
SápmiAhistorical
Sardinia-Piedmont
SlovakiaPlausible
South AfricaPlausible
Sweden-NorwayPlausible
Swedish-Empire
Transylvania
United Arab EmiratesPlausible
VietnamPlausible

Edit: Added a few more and removed Greenland
I love the list!
And i see Bulgaria already in 1337:
Countries.png
 
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Could we get (plausible or ahistorical) "Grand Commonwealth" T4 formable for Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth to represent expansion of Commonwealth to feature Ruthenia or Russia? (alternatively u could also make an argument for union with Hungary to warrant it, but that's further into ahistorical territory)

There were many talks to include/add Russia/Ruthenia to Commonwealth:
- At various points Russian Tsars were considered for election.
- When Commonwealth controlled Russia during the Troubles.
- During Khmelnytsky Uprising.

Also u definitely are missing Romania as (plausible) T2 or T3 formable.
 
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Asia:
  • Mongol Empire (Plausible) {only for tungusic, turkic, and mongolic cultures}
  • Persian Empire (Plausible)
  • Turan (Ahistorical)
  • Khalistan (Ahistorical) {only for sikh}
  • Kurdistan (Plausible) {only for kurds}
  • Dzungaria (Plausible)
  • Shandong
  • Korea
  • Gansu
  • Liaoyang
  • Henan
  • Sichuan
  • Yunnan
  • Jiangxi
  • Jiangzhou
  • Jiangbei
  • Huguang
  • Guangxi
  • Guangdong
  • Guizhou
  • Shaanxi
  • Fujian
  • Zhejiang
  • Zhongshu
  • Lingbei
  • Liaodong
As a Chinese, I feel suffocated when I see these names.
fainted.jpg

These are the names of provinces rather than kingdoms, and there has never been any Shandong or Henan kingdoms. The name of a kingdom in China is a different scheme.
And the name Turan only exists in Arab records.
 
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How does this work with countries that exist at the start of the game? For example, I don’t see France on the list.

Maybe whether someone is France should depend on who controls the majority of France, rather than requiring the complete destruction of the previous France. More like usurpation in CK2 rather than "doesn't exist" in EU4.

What will original France turn to in this scenario?
 
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Amazing! Some suggestions for potential formable nations in the region of India:

1. Dravida (tier 3) - If a South Indian nation unifies the dravidian lands, accepts all atleast 80% of the population's cultures and passes certain reforms and reaches a certain age (possibly the age of absolutism).

2. Bharata/Bharatvarsha (Tier 4) - Hindustan but by a hindu kingdom instead, just like in EU4. (Unless you guys consider Hindustan/Bharat the same country just with a different name with flavour elements like different map colour, flag colour etc.)

3. Chola Empire (Tier 3) - Telugu or Tamil nations have to go through a certain set of advances to unlock the "claim Chola heritage" advance, and restore the namesake kingdom and gain claims into the malaya region.

4. Rajputana instead of Rajput.
5. Gujarat instead of Gujurat.

6. Assam (Tier 2) - (If the Ahom dynasty is no longer in power)

7. Deccan should have localized name variations and should not exactly exist as a "Sultanate of Deccan" on the map. Depending on how its formed, it should be either the Bahamanid Sultanate (of Deccan), Nizamate of Aurangabad, Nizamate of Hyderabad etc. It should be linked to either the power centre or the dynasty ruling it.

8. Keralam (Tier 2) - Union of Malayali states.

9. Bihar (Tier 2) should be formable by Tirhut or any other state in the region if they break free from the Delhi Sultanate. As a matter of fact the Sur Empire should start off as the Sultanate of Bihar either via an event spawing the nation in the greater "Mughal Invasion" Situation.

10. Kosala (Tier 2) - If the tribal hindu/animist pops of the "Chattisgarh" region (which btw is anachronistic and should be changed ingame, along with the Chattisgarhi culture) manage to unite the area by themselves and remain independent and accept all the tribal cultures in the area.
 
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