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Tinto Talks #50 - 12th February 2025

Hey everyone, and welcome back. Johan is busy today (allegedly) so instead I will walk you through this Tinto Talks on Formable Countries in our little project called Caesar. It’s a fairly tight feature so this should be nice and quick.



What are Formable Countries?

Basically, formable countries are new tags that you can switch to. Typically they represent historical unions and conquests, but some represent aspirations that never materialised.

Generally speaking, the vision behind Formables is to offer roleplaying and historical immersion, and support player fantasies, rather than modifier stacking. They will change your country name, national flag, and map color. So while you may unlock some content such as advances or other minor unique content, the tag change is often the goal in itself.

Screenshot 2025-02-12 113332.png
Screenshot 2025-02-12 112612.png

Spain gets some unique advances in the later ages, but not all do.

Rather than your country changing automatically every age, you achieve it by completing certain objectives. Usually, you'll need to control a certain percentage of a predefined set of locations, for example Scandinavia needs 75% of the locations in the Scandinavia region.

There’s typically additional requirements as well such as your Primary Culture belonging to a certain Culture Group. Forming Spain also requires you and all the independent countries in Iberia to be Christian, as it is thematically closely tied to the completion of the Reconquista. Iberian Muslims have the reverse rules for forming Al-Andalus.

Some are directly tied to actions in International Organizations, like the Holy Roman Empire or the Ilkhanate.

Formables also have a Tier that represents their natural order of precedence. You can only form countries that are the same or higher tier than you. For example, England (Tier 2) can form Great Britain (Tier 3) but Great Britain can’t form England. The AI will only form countries that are a higher tier.


Screenshot 2025-02-12 124554.png

Country formation is just a click away.


There are 3 settings to the relevant game rule.
  1. Only Historical Formable Countries
    1. Only countries that actually formed in the game’s time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Spain and Great Britain
  2. Allow Plausible Formable Countries(Default)
    1. Countries that could plausible have formed, or formed just after the time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Germany and Italy
  3. Allow Ahistorical Formable Countries
    1. Aspirational or fantasy countries can be formed. Examples include
      1. North Sea Empire (which is a Tier IV) if you control Britain and Scandinavia
      2. Europa (Tier V)



Screenshot 2025-02-12 121247.png

Some countries have different flags depending on the exact manner in which they are formed. For example this variant of the Union Jack with a dominant saltire when you start as Scotland.


1739361227786.png

And some formables come with little treats to sweeten the deal.


Screenshot 2025-02-12 123920.png

The Teutonic Order has a long way to go before they can become Prussia…


Screenshot 2025-02-12 124144.png

But it might be worth it…


Screenshot 2025-02-12 121702.png

Some exist to fulfil common player fantasies, but only appear if the player chooses in the Game Rules to have the less historical ones.



This is our current list of formable countries, let us know which ones you would like us add!

FormableTierNote
Europa5Ahistorical
Rome4Ahistorical
Hindustan4Plausible
Holy Roman Empire4Plausible
Byzantium4
Ilkhanate4
Iran4
Mongolia4
Mughals4
Rûm4
Russia4
United States4
Celtica3Ahistorical
Latin Empire3Ahistorical
North Sea3Ahistorical
Al-Andalus3Plausible
Arabia3Plausible
Canada3Plausible
Egypt3Plausible
Germany3Plausible
Italy3Plausible
Malaya3Plausible
Ruthenia3Plausible
Scandinavia3Plausible
Shan3Plausible
Banten3
Bengal3
Deccan3
Delhi3
Ethiopia3
Great Britain3
Gujurat3
Hausa3
Inca3
Kongo3
Manchu3
Maratha3
Mexico3
Poland-Lithuania3
Punjab3
Rajput3
Siam3
Sokoto3
Spain3
Timurids3
Two Sicilies3
Yamato3
Africa2Ahistorical
Carthage2Ahistorical
Hen Ogledd2Ahistorical
Aotearoa2Plausible
Greece2Plausible
Jerusalem2Plausible
Livonia2Plausible
Maya2Plausible
Albania2
Armenia2
Austria2
Ayutthaya2
Bahamis2
England2
Georgia2
Golden Horde2
Holstein2
Ireland2
Navarre2
Nepal2
Netherlands2
Poland2
Prussia2
Scotland2
Serbia2
Sweden2
Switzerland2
Tibet2
Wales2
Connacht1Plausible
Ulster1Plausible
Aïr1
Bavaria1
Beja1
Mazovia1
Mecklenburg1
Mossi1
Nassau1
Northumbria1
Pomerania1
Sardinia1
Saxony1
Silesia1


That's it for today's dev diary. Thanks for reading, and we'll see you next time, where we will talk about Subject Types, and an interesting part of the Castilian player fantasy…
 
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That is a very, very generous helping of unique formables :eek:

The Latin Empire still exists nominally. The Latin Empress Catherine II (half-sister to King Philippe VI of France) still lives in 1337, but the tag itself lost all of their lands less than 100 years ago. Will there be events to help Catherine reform it somehow, as she has no land to her name? Or will this be ignored and whomever can form it if they meet the reqs?

And is Africa the province of Africa, that being the Maghreb, or the entire continent of Africa? If the former, then it is time to restore the Kingdom of the Vandals & Alans in Africa!

P.S. Can we get a secret Kingdom of the Visigoths if by miracle Theodoro manages to conquer & convert all of Iberia to Gothic, pretty please? I mean it was more recent than both Rome & Carthage :p

Also, also, is Gothic a Germanic language yet? The last time we saw languages in the region it was grouped into the same group as Greek which makes no sense.
Hey everyone, and welcome back. Johan is busy today (allegedly) so instead I will walk you through this Tinto Talks on Formable Countries in our little project called Caesar. It’s a fairly tight feature so this should be nice and quick.



What are Formable Countries?

Basically, formable countries are new tags that you can switch to. Typically they represent historical unions and conquests, but some represent aspirations that never materialised.

Generally speaking, the vision behind Formables is to offer roleplaying and historical immersion, and support player fantasies, rather than modifier stacking. They will change your country name, national flag, and map color. So while you may unlock some content such as advances or other minor unique content, the tag change is often the goal in itself.

View attachment 1253582View attachment 1253583
Spain gets some unique advances in the later ages, but not all do.

Rather than your country changing automatically every age, you achieve it by completing certain objectives. Usually, you'll need to control a certain percentage of a predefined set of locations, for example Scandinavia needs 75% of the locations in the Scandinavia region.

There’s typically additional requirements as well such as your Primary Culture belonging to a certain Culture Group. Forming Spain also requires you and all the independent countries in Iberia to be Christian, as it is thematically closely tied to the completion of the Reconquista. Iberian Muslims have the reverse rules for forming Al-Andalus.

Some are directly tied to actions in International Organizations, like the Holy Roman Empire or the Ilkhanate.

Formables also have a Tier that represents their natural order of precedence. You can only form countries that are the same or higher tier than you. For example, England (Tier 2) can form Great Britain (Tier 3) but Great Britain can’t form England. The AI will only form countries that are a higher tier.


View attachment 1253586
Country formation is just a click away.


There are 3 settings to the relevant game rule.
  1. Only Historical Formable Countries
    1. Only countries that actually formed in the game’s time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Spain and Great Britain
  2. Allow Plausible Formable Countries(Default)
    1. Countries that could plausible have formed, or formed just after the time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Germany and Italy
  3. Allow Ahistorical Formable Countries
    1. Aspirational or fantasy countries can be formed. Examples include
      1. North Sea Empire (which is a Tier IV) if you control Britain and Scandinavia
      2. Europa (Tier V)



View attachment 1253589
Some countries have different flags depending on the exact manner in which they are formed. For example this variant of the Union Jack with a dominant saltire when you start as Scotland.


View attachment 1253591
And some formables come with little treats to sweeten the deal.


View attachment 1253592
The Teutonic Order has a long way to go before they can become Prussia…


View attachment 1253593
But it might be worth it…


View attachment 1253594
Some exist to fulfil common player fantasies, but only appear if the player chooses in the Game Rules to have the less historical ones.



This is our current list of formable countries, let us know which ones you would like us add!

FormableTierNote
Europa5Ahistorical
Rome4Ahistorical
Hindustan4Plausible
Holy Roman Empire4Plausible
Byzantium4
Ilkhanate4
Iran4
Mongolia4
Mughals4
Rûm4
Russia4
United States4
Celtica3Ahistorical
Latin Empire3Ahistorical
North Sea3Ahistorical
Al-Andalus3Plausible
Arabia3Plausible
Canada3Plausible
Egypt3Plausible
Germany3Plausible
Italy3Plausible
Malaya3Plausible
Ruthenia3Plausible
Scandinavia3Plausible
Shan3Plausible
Banten3
Bengal3
Deccan3
Delhi3
Ethiopia3
Great Britain3
Gujurat3
Hausa3
Inca3
Kongo3
Manchu3
Maratha3
Mexico3
Poland-Lithuania3
Punjab3
Rajput3
Siam3
Sokoto3
Spain3
Timurids3
Two Sicilies3
Yamato3
Africa2Ahistorical
Carthage2Ahistorical
Hen Ogledd2Ahistorical
Aotearoa2Plausible
Greece2Plausible
Jerusalem2Plausible
Livonia2Plausible
Maya2Plausible
Albania2
Armenia2
Austria2
Ayutthaya2
Bahamis2
England2
Georgia2
Golden Horde2
Holstein2
Ireland2
Navarre2
Nepal2
Netherlands2
Poland2
Prussia2
Scotland2
Serbia2
Sweden2
Switzerland2
Tibet2
Wales2
Connacht1Plausible
Ulster1Plausible
Aïr1
Bavaria1
Beja1
Mazovia1
Mecklenburg1
Mossi1
Nassau1
Northumbria1
Pomerania1
Sardinia1
Saxony1
Silesia1


That's it for today's dev diary. Thanks for reading, and we'll see you next time, where we will talk about Subject Types, and an interesting part of the Castilian player fantasy…
This is amazing, couple questions
1. Is Europa the only tier 5 tag in the game
2. What does unify the Russian culture group do, does it give you like a bonus on assimilating East Slavic cultures, or does it for a United Russian culture cause I though you previously said the later wouldn’t be a feature
3. Are USA Mexico and Canada the only post colonial nations or are others just not included in formables
4. Is Africa supposed to be a united Africa or like the Roman province of Africa al-la CK3’s kingdom of Africa cause if it’s the former tier two seems very low
5. Is Iran the name for Persia or a separate tag cause if it’s the former I would like an option for name change in settings like what we have for Byzantium/East Rome
6. Are there name change only formables like kingdom of god in Eu4
Now onto some suggestions for potential additional formables,
7. Might be a bit off topic but will we have a dev diary on releaseables later

Baltic union

Mongol empire

Great Bulgaria ( in reference to the Khanate of great Bulgaria so formed by Bulgaria controlling certain amount of land in Ukraine)

Macedonian empire

Coptic papacy (not sure if this works best as a formable but it could be formed by any Coptic nation controlling Alexandria with max spiritual society value)

Dumnonia (basically a greater Cornwall formable for Cornwall only)

Two saxonies ( this one is a bit of a joke but basically a nation with both upper and Lower Saxony)

A formable for if Japan conquers china

United Caucasus

Greater Armenia

Confederation of the Rhine

Hanseatic confederation ( might not be something you want but basically it’s if the Haseatic league unites into a more standard nation)

Vinland (any Nordic country with all of their land and the North Sea and their capital in North America)

Kyvan rus/ some kind of Ukraine/ruthenia dominated Russia

Somalia

Portugalicia (Portugal and Galicia)

Galicia-Volhinia

Belgium
 
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I would love to see Gran Colombia especially, since it appeared in the timeframe of the game, plus maybe an aspirational pan-Latin American formable.

But what is a tag like Mexico other than just a colony that breaks away from its overlord? What makes a Spanish colony in the Mexico region (assuming those are the prerequisites) worth a tag, but not a Spanish colony in Canada? What makes an English colony in Eastern America worthy of a United States tag, but not an English colony in Brazil?

Is it just because that's how those events happened historically?
 
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Is the formable country Yamato the nation that rules all of Japan as the de facto emperor, with the Tenno holding power? Also, does China function differently from a formable country?

Lastly, is there a difference in game performance between a formable country where the tag changes and a regular country where the tag remains the same?
 
Also there's a distinct lack of American nations in that list. Brazil, Chile, Texas even.

On the top of my head:

FormableTierNote
Brazil2
Grão-Pará1Plausible? Revolt tag instead?
Guyana1Technically ahistorical
Piratini/Rio Grande1
Uruguay/Banda Oriental1
Argentina/Argentine2
Paraguay1
Chile2
Peru2
Bolivia1
Ecuador1
Colombia2
Venezuela1
Panama1Plausible
Guatemala/UPCA2
Texas2

Everything north of Mexico is a mystery to me.
 
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I recall a post on the EU4 forums titled “Can we have a formable Illyria, please?” (I guess I can’t include a link atm)

I found it compelling enough, especially considering that Spain derived its own name to the Roman province of Hispania after all, so it wouldn’t be too unreasonable to think a Latin local country dominating in this region could take on an Illyrian identity, especially if the term was allegedly still in use during this period.

As for other formables, Siqilliya (Muslim Sicily) comes to mind, although at this point in time it might be more ahistorical.
 
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Can you add Numidia as an ahistorical formable? :p
EDIT: Can you add Belgium too as a plausible formable?

Also...

CK3 does this so well:
Will there be an in-game flag editor?
Crusader-Kings-3-Coat-of-Arms-Designer-1.jpg


Can we rename our country and denonym?
ld66aney2nl61.png


Can we change our country map color to any shade we want?
03_title_colour_picker.png


You confirmed that renaming locations will be possible, but can we also rename owned provinces and areas to whatever we want?

These stuff will contribute to make PC the ultimate nation-gardening game :);)
 
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I noticed that a game rule is listed below. Does this mean that things that are not available by rule will be visible at all times?
Screenshot%202025-02-12%20121702.png

Is the list of releasables different than the formables?
 
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I noticed Austria is a formable, is this related to the formation of the Archduchy of Austria, or is it just for reforming the duchy of Austria?

Also, this may be more relevant to the Austria tinto flavour, but since the game start is before the Privilegium Maius and way before it was officially accepted, could in theory the Duchy of Steiermark (or perhaps some other duchy) become an Archduchy? Or would Steiermark have to form Austria?
 
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American Revolution confirmed!

I mean I hope there's a bit of modifier stacking involved as well. While I think primarily they should be historical, forming a country is always a great goal in a campaign, and getting to form multiple is really fun.

What's the deal with Rome and Byzantium being the same rank? Can you still go from Byzantium to Rome? I'd have Byzantium on the same rank as the Latin Empire and I'd move them from ahistorical to plausible. Is Yamato just fully formed Japan under a different name? I think if so that should have optional naming like Byzantium does. I'm also assuming that Africa as a tier-2 formable isn't the entire continent of Africa right? Just North Africa? That still seems like that should get bumped up a rank. I also notice no 'Great Zimbabwe', or Mali as a 'Reformable'. Polynesia should definitely be a 'plausible' if not 'ahistorical' tag, but I think that's a great challenge for someone playing in the area to try to form. Also a formable Aboriginal Australia could also be 'plausible' or 'ahistorical' even if players can't yet play in the area. Siberia could be an 'ahistorical' one.
 
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