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Tinto Talks #50 - 12th February 2025

Hey everyone, and welcome back. Johan is busy today (allegedly) so instead I will walk you through this Tinto Talks on Formable Countries in our little project called Caesar. It’s a fairly tight feature so this should be nice and quick.



What are Formable Countries?

Basically, formable countries are new tags that you can switch to. Typically they represent historical unions and conquests, but some represent aspirations that never materialised.

Generally speaking, the vision behind Formables is to offer roleplaying and historical immersion, and support player fantasies, rather than modifier stacking. They will change your country name, national flag, and map color. So while you may unlock some content such as advances or other minor unique content, the tag change is often the goal in itself.

Screenshot 2025-02-12 113332.png
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Spain gets some unique advances in the later ages, but not all do.

Rather than your country changing automatically every age, you achieve it by completing certain objectives. Usually, you'll need to control a certain percentage of a predefined set of locations, for example Scandinavia needs 75% of the locations in the Scandinavia region.

There’s typically additional requirements as well such as your Primary Culture belonging to a certain Culture Group. Forming Spain also requires you and all the independent countries in Iberia to be Christian, as it is thematically closely tied to the completion of the Reconquista. Iberian Muslims have the reverse rules for forming Al-Andalus.

Some are directly tied to actions in International Organizations, like the Holy Roman Empire or the Ilkhanate.

Formables also have a Tier that represents their natural order of precedence. You can only form countries that are the same or higher tier than you. For example, England (Tier 2) can form Great Britain (Tier 3) but Great Britain can’t form England. The AI will only form countries that are a higher tier.


Screenshot 2025-02-12 124554.png

Country formation is just a click away.


There are 3 settings to the relevant game rule.
  1. Only Historical Formable Countries
    1. Only countries that actually formed in the game’s time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Spain and Great Britain
  2. Allow Plausible Formable Countries(Default)
    1. Countries that could plausible have formed, or formed just after the time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Germany and Italy
  3. Allow Ahistorical Formable Countries
    1. Aspirational or fantasy countries can be formed. Examples include
      1. North Sea Empire (which is a Tier IV) if you control Britain and Scandinavia
      2. Europa (Tier V)



Screenshot 2025-02-12 121247.png

Some countries have different flags depending on the exact manner in which they are formed. For example this variant of the Union Jack with a dominant saltire when you start as Scotland.


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And some formables come with little treats to sweeten the deal.


Screenshot 2025-02-12 123920.png

The Teutonic Order has a long way to go before they can become Prussia…


Screenshot 2025-02-12 124144.png

But it might be worth it…


Screenshot 2025-02-12 121702.png

Some exist to fulfil common player fantasies, but only appear if the player chooses in the Game Rules to have the less historical ones.



This is our current list of formable countries, let us know which ones you would like us add!

FormableTierNote
Europa5Ahistorical
Rome4Ahistorical
Hindustan4Plausible
Holy Roman Empire4Plausible
Byzantium4
Ilkhanate4
Iran4
Mongolia4
Mughals4
Rûm4
Russia4
United States4
Celtica3Ahistorical
Latin Empire3Ahistorical
North Sea3Ahistorical
Al-Andalus3Plausible
Arabia3Plausible
Canada3Plausible
Egypt3Plausible
Germany3Plausible
Italy3Plausible
Malaya3Plausible
Ruthenia3Plausible
Scandinavia3Plausible
Shan3Plausible
Banten3
Bengal3
Deccan3
Delhi3
Ethiopia3
Great Britain3
Gujurat3
Hausa3
Inca3
Kongo3
Manchu3
Maratha3
Mexico3
Poland-Lithuania3
Punjab3
Rajput3
Siam3
Sokoto3
Spain3
Timurids3
Two Sicilies3
Yamato3
Africa2Ahistorical
Carthage2Ahistorical
Hen Ogledd2Ahistorical
Aotearoa2Plausible
Greece2Plausible
Jerusalem2Plausible
Livonia2Plausible
Maya2Plausible
Albania2
Armenia2
Austria2
Ayutthaya2
Bahamis2
England2
Georgia2
Golden Horde2
Holstein2
Ireland2
Navarre2
Nepal2
Netherlands2
Poland2
Prussia2
Scotland2
Serbia2
Sweden2
Switzerland2
Tibet2
Wales2
Connacht1Plausible
Ulster1Plausible
Aïr1
Bavaria1
Beja1
Mazovia1
Mecklenburg1
Mossi1
Nassau1
Northumbria1
Pomerania1
Sardinia1
Saxony1
Silesia1


That's it for today's dev diary. Thanks for reading, and we'll see you next time, where we will talk about Subject Types, and an interesting part of the Castilian player fantasy…
 
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So, the modern territory of the Netherlands is the Netherlands and the modern territory of the Netherlands and Belgium is also just the Netherlands?

Yeah, respectfully disagree. A curmudgeonly position, imo.

I'd like there to be something special for the Netherlands and Belgium. I think it's cool to unite the region. That's always a goal of my games where I play in the region. If others feel the same, then I think it would be cool to have a special name for the whole thing. If I'm the only one, then nevermind.
BeNeLux. The proto-EU as an ahistorical nation. :)

It is a difficult situation, because in 1820 the Netherlands comprised of current NL + Be + Lux, so it makes sense to have your whole thing still be called the Netherlands. Heck, Belgium was called Spanish and Habsburg Netherlands for a long period of time. But I see your position as a nice goal to have for a game.
 
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FormableRule
Bulgaria / Bulgarian EmpireAhistorical
Cossack Hetmanate
Denmark-Norway
Ducal Prussia
FinlandPlausible / Ahistorical?
Great MoraviaAhistorical
GreenlandAhistorical
IberiaAhistorical
Kalmar UnionAhistorical
Kingdom of Merina / Madagascar
Poland-SwedenPlausible
Romania
RûmAhistorical
SápmiPlausible / Ahistorical?
Sardinia-Piedmont
SlovakiaPlausible / Ahistorical?
South Africa
Sweden-NorwayPlausible / Ahistorical?
Swedish-Empire
United Arab EmiratesAhistorical
VietnamAhistorical
Greenland already exists at the start, otherwise it's a good list
 
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Ideas for slavic formable Nations:

- Zapadoslavia/West-Slavia (Nation consisting of the westslavic peoples: Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Sorbs, Polabians) (ahistorical)

- Slavic Union/ Slavia (Nation consisting of all slavic peoples) (ahistorical)

- Yugoslavia (Nation of the southslavic peoples) (plausible)
 
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Just speculating, can it be a Ruthenia flavour? So if you form Ruthenia as a cossack state it will be called Hetmanate?
Possible, but this would be the bare minimum I'd wish to see. I'd expect the opposite - you form Ruthenia in the early game and then in later game more Cossack content and possibility to form the Hetmanate.

But I would favour separation:
  • Ruthenia monarchy path and content (Kingdom of Ruthenia, Kyivan Rus)
  • Hetmanate republic cossack path and content, with maybe viable Ruthenia at the same time.
With the possibility of existing both at the same time. Even maybe with an interesting rivalry.
2x more choises, 2x more content, 2x more fun :D

But at least early game Ruthenian flavour then transforming into later game Cossack flavour would be the minimum I'd like to get.
 
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When you form a higher-tier nation, is it possible for rebels representing a lower-tier tag included in your nation to break out and reform that nation?

I'm thinking specifically of Scotland breaking out of Great Britain.
 
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Some thoughts for formables:

Gran Colombia (Plausible scenario where Bolivar was successful)
Angevin Empire
Austria-Hungary
Please no Austria-Hungary “formable”. The conditions for the formation of Austria-Hungary are extremely unlikely to happen for a game that starts in 1337, and even more unlikely to happen before the game end date. Not to mention the Austria-Hungary formable would pretty much just be giving more Autonomy to Hungary to not have to deal with possible revolts. In game this would be portrayed by “Well, my empire is too multiethnic and unstable, guess I’ll release a country so I won’t have to deal with that part of the empire as much”.
 
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I think what this is referring to, I could be wrong, is that the tag "Japan" is the Imperial (or Shogunate? I can't recall) authority only, thus without complete control over its many vassals, while Yamato presumably represents a Meiji-style unification of the country. I'm not sure why you would want to release from there.
I don’t really understand the reasoning behind changing Japan’s name to Yamato, it feels very anachronistic for the game’s time period. That name is generally used for Ancient Japan, before the mass adoption of Chinese law and culture under the Taika Reforms. (Japan’s current name is just a very garbled version of Nippon/Nihon)

“The name for Japan in Japanese is written using the kanji 日本 and is pronounced Nihon or Nippon.[11] Before 日本 was adopted in the early 8th century, the country was known in China as Wa (倭, changed in Japan around 757 to 和) and in Japan by the endonym Yamato.[12]Nippon, the original Sino-Japanese reading of the characters, is favored for official uses, including on Japanese banknotes and postage stamps.[11] Nihon is typically used in everyday speech and reflects shifts in Japanese phonology during the Edo period.[12] The characters 日本 mean "sun origin",[11] which is the source of the popular Western epithet"Land of the Rising Sun".[13]

“Since the third century, Chinese called the people of the Japanese archipelago something like "ˀWâ" (倭), which can also mean "dwarf" or "submissive".[1]: 4–6  Japanese scribes found fault with its offensive connotation, and officially changed the characters they used to spell the native name for Japan, Yamato, replacing the 倭 ("dwarf") character for Wawith the homophone 和 ("peaceful, harmonious"). Wa 和 was often combined with 大 ("great") to form the name 大和, which is read as Yamato[2][3] (see also Jukujikun for a discussion of this type of spelling where the kanji and pronunciations are not directly related). The earliest record of 日本 appears in the Chinese Old Book of Tang, which notes the change in 703 when Japanese envoys requested that its name be changed. It is believed that the name change within Japan itself took place sometime between 665 and 703.[4] During the Heian period, 大和 was gradually replaced by 日本, which was first pronounced with the sound reading (on'yomi)Nippon and later as Nifon, and then in modern usage Nihon, reflecting shifts in phonology in Early Modern Japanese.[1][failed verification] In 1076, Turkic scholar Mahmud al-Kashgari in his book Dīwān Lughāt al-Turk mentioned this country as 'Jabarqa' (جَابَرْقَا).[5] Marco Polocalled Japan 'Cipangu' around 1300, based on the Chinese enunciation of the name,[6]probably 日本國; 'sun source country' (compare modern Min Nan pronunciation ji̍t pún kok). In the 16th century in Malacca, Portuguese traders first heard from Indonesianand Malay the names Jepang, Jipang, and Jepun.[7] In 1577 it was first recorded in English, spelled Giapan.[7] At the end of the 16th century, Portuguese missionaries came to coastal islands of Japan and created brief grammars and dictionaries of Middle Japanesefor the purpose of trade. The 1603–1604 dictionary Vocabvlario da Lingoa de Iapam has 2 entries: nifon[8] and iippon.[9] Since then many derived names of Japan appeared on early-modern European maps.“



 
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News tormorow: Strategy game designer hauled before Swedish court for high treason

thank god I live in a civilized country these days
 
I don’t really understand the reasoning behind changing Japan’s name to Yamato, it feels very anachronistic for the game’s time period. That name is generally used for Ancient Japan, before the mass adoption of Chinese law and culture under the Taika Reforms. (Japan is just a very garbled version of Nippon/Nihon)

“The name for Japan in Japanese is written using the kanji 日本 and is pronounced Nihon or Nippon.[11] Before 日本 was adopted in the early 8th century, the country was known in China as Wa (倭, changed in Japan around 757 to 和) and in Japan by the endonym Yamato.[12]Nippon, the original Sino-Japanese reading of the characters, is favored for official uses, including on Japanese banknotes and postage stamps.[11] Nihon is typically used in everyday speech and reflects shifts in Japanese phonology during the Edo period.[12] The characters 日本 mean "sun origin",[11] which is the source of the popular Western epithet"Land of the Rising Sun".[13]

“Since the third century, Chinese called the people of the Japanese archipelago something like "ˀWâ" (倭), which can also mean "dwarf" or "submissive".[1]: 4–6  Japanese scribes found fault with its offensive connotation, and officially changed the characters they used to spell the native name for Japan, Yamato, replacing the 倭 ("dwarf") character for Wawith the homophone 和 ("peaceful, harmonious"). Wa 和 was often combined with 大 ("great") to form the name 大和, which is read as Yamato[2][3] (see also Jukujikun for a discussion of this type of spelling where the kanji and pronunciations are not directly related). The earliest record of 日本 appears in the Chinese Old Book of Tang, which notes the change in 703 when Japanese envoys requested that its name be changed. It is believed that the name change within Japan itself took place sometime between 665 and 703.[4] During the Heian period, 大和 was gradually replaced by 日本, which was first pronounced with the sound reading (on'yomi)Nippon and later as Nifon, and then in modern usage Nihon, reflecting shifts in phonology in Early Modern Japanese.[1][failed verification] In 1076, Turkic scholar Mahmud al-Kashgari in his book Dīwān Lughāt al-Turk mentioned this country as 'Jabarqa' (جَابَرْقَا).[5] Marco Polocalled Japan 'Cipangu' around 1300, based on the Chinese enunciation of the name,[6]probably 日本國; 'sun source country' (compare modern Min Nan pronunciation ji̍t pún kok). In the 16th century in Malacca, Portuguese traders first heard from Indonesianand Malay the names Jepang, Jipang, and Jepun.[7] In 1577 it was first recorded in English, spelled Giapan.[7] At the end of the 16th century, Portuguese missionaries came to coastal islands of Japan and created brief grammars and dictionaries of Middle Japanesefor the purpose of trade. The 1603–1604 dictionary Vocabvlario da Lingoa de Iapam has 2 entries: nifon[8] and iippon.[9] Since then many derived names of Japan appeared on early-modern European maps.“



I'm not disagreeing! I was honestly confused myself when I saw it, I just think that's probably their reasoning.
 
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Belgium gained its independence in 1830, and the game ends in 1836, it's strange that it doesn't. Then I wonder what the training conditions could be? Owning Belgian territory, being Catholic, and that the Protestant Netherlands exists?
This feels a bit too restrictive, I would say that these were the reasons why they split from Netherlands in real life. If think that if you are of a primary culture from French group and own a lot of locations in the low countries and want to give them a common identity, you can call yourself Belgium. Although there could be the condition that Netherlands needs to exist, because otherwise you can just call yourself Netherlands.
 
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would Hen Ogledd really be ahistorical? Cumbrains had just in the past century been fully assimilated, and Cumbria was a title the Scottish kings held still. And Greece and the Latin Empire should both be historical, as others have pointed out.

in terms of what should be added, I have not seen Iroquois or the Seminole mentioned.
 
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I don't know if these countries count as formable, but I would like to see tags for ahistorical minority cultures like
-Arvanite,
-Aromaninan,
-Coptic people,
-Szekely,
-Griko ...
and many others that were confirmed but historically didn't have independent tag.
I agree! Maybe Hellenic people in Southern Italy and Malta could form something like Magna Graecia. The Greeks in Sicily could possibly also form Sikelia while the Latin speakers could form Sicily or both could form Sicily?
 
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Any chance we can change Inca to Tahuantinsuyo?

also, I know it's a very long shot but if you consider my suggestion of adding the Taino cacicazgos of Hispaniola as tags It would be cool to be able to form Quisqueya if one manages to unify the island as them.
Agreed, I want to play Taino people as Japan or Britain in the New World.
 
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Please no Austria-Hungary “formable”. The conditions for the formation of Austria-Hungary are extremely unlikely to happen for a game that starts in 1337, and even more unlikely to happen before the game end date. Not to mention the Austria-Hungary formable would pretty much just be giving more Autonomy to Hungary to not have to deal with possible revolts. In game this would be portrayed by “Well, my empire is too multiethnic and unstable, guess I’ll release a country so I won’t have to deal with that part of the empire as much”.
not only that. At those time before the game starts and till the Habsburgs managed to solidify their position from Vienna to Istria and secure the long-term HRE emperorships from any potential rivals; Bohemia, Hungary and Poland were deeply intermarried, with several shared kings, dynastic alliances and personal unions ..... in 1337 .... Electoral Empire of Polish-Hungarian-Bohemia Crowns was much more plausible
 
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I recommend that Malaya to be downgrade to Tier 2 with the condition of uniting the Malay Peninsular with Sumatera as optional, while make Nusantara the Tier 3 formable that united the entire Malay Archipelago. This is because Malaya almost exclusively refer to the Malay Peninsular while Nusantara refer to the entire Malay Archipelago.
 
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