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Tinto Talks #50 - 12th February 2025

Hey everyone, and welcome back. Johan is busy today (allegedly) so instead I will walk you through this Tinto Talks on Formable Countries in our little project called Caesar. It’s a fairly tight feature so this should be nice and quick.



What are Formable Countries?

Basically, formable countries are new tags that you can switch to. Typically they represent historical unions and conquests, but some represent aspirations that never materialised.

Generally speaking, the vision behind Formables is to offer roleplaying and historical immersion, and support player fantasies, rather than modifier stacking. They will change your country name, national flag, and map color. So while you may unlock some content such as advances or other minor unique content, the tag change is often the goal in itself.

Screenshot 2025-02-12 113332.png
Screenshot 2025-02-12 112612.png

Spain gets some unique advances in the later ages, but not all do.

Rather than your country changing automatically every age, you achieve it by completing certain objectives. Usually, you'll need to control a certain percentage of a predefined set of locations, for example Scandinavia needs 75% of the locations in the Scandinavia region.

There’s typically additional requirements as well such as your Primary Culture belonging to a certain Culture Group. Forming Spain also requires you and all the independent countries in Iberia to be Christian, as it is thematically closely tied to the completion of the Reconquista. Iberian Muslims have the reverse rules for forming Al-Andalus.

Some are directly tied to actions in International Organizations, like the Holy Roman Empire or the Ilkhanate.

Formables also have a Tier that represents their natural order of precedence. You can only form countries that are the same or higher tier than you. For example, England (Tier 2) can form Great Britain (Tier 3) but Great Britain can’t form England. The AI will only form countries that are a higher tier.


Screenshot 2025-02-12 124554.png

Country formation is just a click away.


There are 3 settings to the relevant game rule.
  1. Only Historical Formable Countries
    1. Only countries that actually formed in the game’s time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Spain and Great Britain
  2. Allow Plausible Formable Countries(Default)
    1. Countries that could plausible have formed, or formed just after the time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Germany and Italy
  3. Allow Ahistorical Formable Countries
    1. Aspirational or fantasy countries can be formed. Examples include
      1. North Sea Empire (which is a Tier IV) if you control Britain and Scandinavia
      2. Europa (Tier V)



Screenshot 2025-02-12 121247.png

Some countries have different flags depending on the exact manner in which they are formed. For example this variant of the Union Jack with a dominant saltire when you start as Scotland.


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And some formables come with little treats to sweeten the deal.


Screenshot 2025-02-12 123920.png

The Teutonic Order has a long way to go before they can become Prussia…


Screenshot 2025-02-12 124144.png

But it might be worth it…


Screenshot 2025-02-12 121702.png

Some exist to fulfil common player fantasies, but only appear if the player chooses in the Game Rules to have the less historical ones.



This is our current list of formable countries, let us know which ones you would like us add!

FormableTierNote
Europa5Ahistorical
Rome4Ahistorical
Hindustan4Plausible
Holy Roman Empire4Plausible
Byzantium4
Ilkhanate4
Iran4
Mongolia4
Mughals4
Rûm4
Russia4
United States4
Celtica3Ahistorical
Latin Empire3Ahistorical
North Sea3Ahistorical
Al-Andalus3Plausible
Arabia3Plausible
Canada3Plausible
Egypt3Plausible
Germany3Plausible
Italy3Plausible
Malaya3Plausible
Ruthenia3Plausible
Scandinavia3Plausible
Shan3Plausible
Banten3
Bengal3
Deccan3
Delhi3
Ethiopia3
Great Britain3
Gujurat3
Hausa3
Inca3
Kongo3
Manchu3
Maratha3
Mexico3
Poland-Lithuania3
Punjab3
Rajput3
Siam3
Sokoto3
Spain3
Timurids3
Two Sicilies3
Yamato3
Africa2Ahistorical
Carthage2Ahistorical
Hen Ogledd2Ahistorical
Aotearoa2Plausible
Greece2Plausible
Jerusalem2Plausible
Livonia2Plausible
Maya2Plausible
Albania2
Armenia2
Austria2
Ayutthaya2
Bahamis2
England2
Georgia2
Golden Horde2
Holstein2
Ireland2
Navarre2
Nepal2
Netherlands2
Poland2
Prussia2
Scotland2
Serbia2
Sweden2
Switzerland2
Tibet2
Wales2
Connacht1Plausible
Ulster1Plausible
Aïr1
Bavaria1
Beja1
Mazovia1
Mecklenburg1
Mossi1
Nassau1
Northumbria1
Pomerania1
Sardinia1
Saxony1
Silesia1


That's it for today's dev diary. Thanks for reading, and we'll see you next time, where we will talk about Subject Types, and an interesting part of the Castilian player fantasy…
 
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And "Belgica Foederata" was the common Latin name of the United Netherlands, i.e. the Dutch republic.
Belgium, Belgica, Low Countries, Lowlands, Batavia and the Netherlands were basically interchangeable terms used for the same geographical concept.

In a EU game it does not make any sense to have those as different country tags.

So, the modern territory of the Netherlands is the Netherlands and the modern territory of the Netherlands and Belgium is also just the Netherlands?

Yeah, respectfully disagree. A curmudgeonly position, imo.

I'd like there to be something special for the Netherlands and Belgium. I think it's cool to unite the region. That's always a goal of my games where I play in the region. If others feel the same, then I think it would be cool to have a special name for the whole thing. If I'm the only one, then nevermind.
 
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I would suggest some formable tag to represent a united Northern Africa i.e. everything above the Sahara, and another tag to represent a unified sub-Saharan Africa.
 
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Some thoughts for formables:

Gran Colombia (Plausible scenario where Bolivar was successful)
Angevin Empire
Austria-Hungary
Hetmanate(Cossack State)
Turan(Central Asian Turkish State)
North German Confederation
South German Confederation
Westphalia
Zapadoslavia
Yuan(Should be reformable if it falls after game start)
Qing
Ming
Confederation of the Rhine(A Tag for Burgundy to be playable)
Moravia
Lombardy
Frankia
The Caliphate(As a Tier 5)

Feel free to comment any other you guys feel would be a nice addition! :)
 
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Without listing most of the New World formable tags in EU4, here are some of my suggestions.

FormableRule
Austrian Empire
Belarus / White RusAhistorical
Bulgaria / Bulgarian EmpirePlausible / Ahistorical
Cambodia
Cossack Hetmanate
County of TripoliAhistorical
Courland
Crimean Khanate
Denmark-Norway
Ducal Prussia
FinlandPlausible
Galicia-Volhynia
Great MoraviaAhistorical
Greenland - Already in the gameAhistorical
IberiaPlausible / Ahistorical?
Kalmar UnionAhistorical
Kazakh Khanate
KazakhstanPlausible
KenyaPlausible / Ahistorical?
Kievan / Kyivan RusAhistorical
Kingdom of Merina / Madagascar
Laos
Ming / Dà Míng
North German ConfederationPlausible
PhilippinesPlausible
Poland-SwedenPlausible / Ahistorical?
Qara Qoyunlu
Rhine Confederation
RomaniaPlausible
Russian Empire
RûmAhistorical
SápmiAhistorical
Sardinia-Piedmont
SlovakiaPlausible
SorbiaAhistorical
South AfricaPlausible
Sweden-NorwayPlausible
Swedish-Empire
Transylvania
Third RomeAhistorical
United Arab EmiratesPlausible
VietnamPlausible

Edit: Added a few more and removed Greenland, Bulgaria
 
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The Holy Roman Empire should perhaps be a default formable. The HRE was after all an actual country during the games time period, even if fairly decentralised. What happens now if you unite the HRE through the IO without plausible formables on? Does it simply get called the country that united it? Not a major issue since you can just turn them on (which I think the vast majority of players will anyways) though.
Yeah, this game rule thing seems rather arbitrary. HRE definitely should be historical, as that tag seems to just represent the centralization of HRE, which by 1337 was not at all an impossible thing.
 
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And what about Belgium, could be tier 2, not sure whether historical, plausible or ahistorical.
Belgium gained its independence in 1830, and the game ends in 1836, it's strange that it doesn't. Then I wonder what the training conditions could be? Owning Belgian territory, being Catholic, and that the Protestant Netherlands exists?
 
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Please, add Hetmanate (Cossack Hetmanate) / Zaporizhia to formable historical tags, as it existed in the XVII – XVIII centuries.
It should have also a potential for unique flavour (Sich, republic, horde, provide mercenaries, raids etc.).

For example, 1640s – 1650s Hetmanate under Bohdan Khmelnytskyi maps:

Historical maps:
Pays des Cosaques ou Ukraine
Vkraina quae et Terra Cossacorum
View attachment 1253647View attachment 1253653

Symbols:
Just speculating, can it be a Ruthenia flavour? So if you form Ruthenia as a cossack state it will be called Hetmanate?
 
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Something I think would be interesting to see is the flag changing depending on the age you formed the country. So if you form Italy in the 15th century the flag would be based on the iron crown of lombardy while if you form it in the 18th century it’s based on the tricolor
 
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"Manchu" should be renamed to "Jin". There was never a state called "Manchu". Also surprised there's not a Chinese Empire formable but maybe that's covered by different mechanics. I doubt you just forgot to add Qing so I presume that's the case.
I think the Chinese empire is an international organisation, like it was in EU4
 
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Idk how to insert parts of the post in the comment but it's really cool that in the Russia screenshot the flag of Russia has the CoA of Yaroslavl, I assume cuz that's from whose perspective it was taken, which would imply much more option in flags then two versions of Union Jack. What are some other countries with this trait, like Italy for example?
Also add Kalevala as Balto-Finnic formable, trust me it's vital.
 
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Canada, Mexico, and United States are formable but Brazil, Australia, Argentina, etc... are missing?

Either this is just an oversight or these are formed differently? If the latter, then that seems rather strange from a consistency perspective.
 
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Is there a way to “demote” a nation? Like if I invaded Great Britain and forced them to release Scotland, will the remaining parts of the nation be renamed to England again? (Assuming it was England who formed GB)
 
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Gonna start a giant suggestion, so forgive me if this is long.

Europa Universalis 4 additions
FormableTierNote
Romania3Plausible (ended up forming after the timeframe)
Angevin Kingdom3Plausible
Chile2Completely possible, Chile existed from 1810-1814 independent, and again from 1818 onwards
Colombia2Completely possible, Colombia first existed in 1810-1816, and then from 1831 onwards (as New Granada)
Haiti2Completely possible, Haiti existed from 1804 onwards
La Plata3Completely possible, existed from 1810 to 1831, becoming Argentina, but still could exist beyond
Louisiana2Plausible, Louisiana did declare independence from the US in 1860 then joined the Confederacy so if that means something there it is.
Peru3Completely possible, Peru gained independence in 1821.
Paraguay2Completely possible, Paraguay was established in 1811.
Quebec2Plausible. Quebec separatism wasn't uncommon and Quebec did revolt in 1837.
United Central America2Completely Possible, the Federal Republic of Central America declared independence in 1823.
Venezuela2Completely possible, Venezuela had tried to gain independence several times setting up republics, with it existing solidly since 1831.
Australia3Plausible. Australia had yet to be settled completely by 1837, but Australia had desires for self-rule not long after the timeframe.
California2Plausible. Efforts to make a separate California existed during the end of the timeframe and afterwards.
Texas2Either Completely possible or plausible, depending on if Texas's late independence in 1835 counts or not.
Oregon/Columbia (renamed Cascadia)2Plausible. The idea of an independent Oregon arose slightly after the timeframe in 1841.
Alaska2Plausible.
Zealandia2Plausible. While New Zealand had yet to be colonized by European powers in the timeframe, if they did, it wouldn't be wrong to assume this nation could arise.
Illinois1 or 2Plausible?
Florida2Plausible. Florida revolted various times from Spanish rule like other colonies
Vermont1Completely possible, Vermont existed as a brief country from 1774 to 1791
Sonora2Plausible, efforts to make a separate Sonoran country came after the timeframe.
West Indies2Plausible, the idea of having the other Anglophone islands of the Caribbean wasn't unrealistic, albeit this specific iteration wouldn't be formulated until long after the timeframe
Cuba2Plausible, while Cuba didn't gain independence, it also did revolt in the Latin American Wars of Independence, and it eventually gained independence after the timeframe
Courland/Kurland1Completely possible.
Sardinia-Piedmont2Completely possible.
Hannover2Completely possible.
Westphalia2Completely possible.
Austria-Hungary3 or 4Ahistorical. While Austria-Hungary did form outside the timeframe in 1867, the idea of it forming would be very awkward for much of the timeframe, albeit it could be plausible, this one is hard to say for me.
Great Moravia2 or 3Ahistorical.
Tuscany2Completely possible. (why isn't this on the list?)
Bukhara2Completely possible.
Somalia3 or 4Plausible or Ahistorical.
Aksum4Ahistorical.
Nubia3Plausible.
Rozvi3Completely possible.
Nagpur2 or 3Completely possible.
Lotharingia3Ahistorical.
Swabia2Plausible.
Hawai'i1Completely possible.
Viti2Plausible.
Denmark2 or 3Completely possible.
Khalkha2 or 3Completely possible.
Dzungar2 or 3Completely possible.
Khoshuut2 or 3Completely possible.
Cirebon2Completely possible.
Morea1Completely possible.
Transylvania1Completely possible.
Danzig1Completely possible.
Annam1Completely possible.
Champasak1Completely possible.
Luang Prabang1Completely possible.
Tonkin1Completely possible.
Vientiane1Completely possible.
Croatia2Completely possible.
Hungary2Completely possible.
Poland2Completely possible.
France3Completely possible.
Yemen2Completely possible.
Morocco2Completely possible.
Tunis2Completely possible.
Mali3Completely possible.
Dai Viet2Completely possible.
Lan Xang2Completely possible.
Orissa2Completely possible.
Franconia1Plausible.
Iceland1Plausible.
Bulgaria2Completely possible.
Dalmatia2Plausible.
Tripoli2Completely possible.
Algeria2Completely possible.

Victoria 3 additions (picking the ones I feel could work for here)
FormableTierNote
Federation of the Andes4Ahistorical.
Afghanistan2Completely possible.
Belgium2Plausible.
Baluchistan1Plausible.
Carnatic2Completely possible.
Carolina2Ahistorical.
Confederation of the Rhine2Plausible.
Dravida Nadu3Ahistorical.
Gran Colombia3Completely possible.
Kazakhstan2 or 3Completely possible.
Maghreb3 or 4Plausible.
Polynesia3 or 4Ahistorical.
United Netherlands3Plausible.
Zimbabwe4Completely possible.

Crusader Kings 3 additions (picking the ones I feel could work for here)

FormableTierNote.
Chagatai3?Completely possible.
Outremer3Ahistorical.
Naples2Completely possible.
Qara Qhitai/Khotan3?Ahistorical or Plausible.
Sorbia1 or 2Plausible.
Bosnia2Completely possible.

There's probably some others but this is what I think should be included.
 
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