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Tinto Talks #50 - 12th February 2025

Hey everyone, and welcome back. Johan is busy today (allegedly) so instead I will walk you through this Tinto Talks on Formable Countries in our little project called Caesar. It’s a fairly tight feature so this should be nice and quick.



What are Formable Countries?

Basically, formable countries are new tags that you can switch to. Typically they represent historical unions and conquests, but some represent aspirations that never materialised.

Generally speaking, the vision behind Formables is to offer roleplaying and historical immersion, and support player fantasies, rather than modifier stacking. They will change your country name, national flag, and map color. So while you may unlock some content such as advances or other minor unique content, the tag change is often the goal in itself.

Screenshot 2025-02-12 113332.png
Screenshot 2025-02-12 112612.png

Spain gets some unique advances in the later ages, but not all do.

Rather than your country changing automatically every age, you achieve it by completing certain objectives. Usually, you'll need to control a certain percentage of a predefined set of locations, for example Scandinavia needs 75% of the locations in the Scandinavia region.

There’s typically additional requirements as well such as your Primary Culture belonging to a certain Culture Group. Forming Spain also requires you and all the independent countries in Iberia to be Christian, as it is thematically closely tied to the completion of the Reconquista. Iberian Muslims have the reverse rules for forming Al-Andalus.

Some are directly tied to actions in International Organizations, like the Holy Roman Empire or the Ilkhanate.

Formables also have a Tier that represents their natural order of precedence. You can only form countries that are the same or higher tier than you. For example, England (Tier 2) can form Great Britain (Tier 3) but Great Britain can’t form England. The AI will only form countries that are a higher tier.


Screenshot 2025-02-12 124554.png

Country formation is just a click away.


There are 3 settings to the relevant game rule.
  1. Only Historical Formable Countries
    1. Only countries that actually formed in the game’s time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Spain and Great Britain
  2. Allow Plausible Formable Countries(Default)
    1. Countries that could plausible have formed, or formed just after the time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Germany and Italy
  3. Allow Ahistorical Formable Countries
    1. Aspirational or fantasy countries can be formed. Examples include
      1. North Sea Empire (which is a Tier IV) if you control Britain and Scandinavia
      2. Europa (Tier V)



Screenshot 2025-02-12 121247.png

Some countries have different flags depending on the exact manner in which they are formed. For example this variant of the Union Jack with a dominant saltire when you start as Scotland.


1739361227786.png

And some formables come with little treats to sweeten the deal.


Screenshot 2025-02-12 123920.png

The Teutonic Order has a long way to go before they can become Prussia…


Screenshot 2025-02-12 124144.png

But it might be worth it…


Screenshot 2025-02-12 121702.png

Some exist to fulfil common player fantasies, but only appear if the player chooses in the Game Rules to have the less historical ones.



This is our current list of formable countries, let us know which ones you would like us add!

FormableTierNote
Europa5Ahistorical
Rome4Ahistorical
Hindustan4Plausible
Holy Roman Empire4Plausible
Byzantium4
Ilkhanate4
Iran4
Mongolia4
Mughals4
Rûm4
Russia4
United States4
Celtica3Ahistorical
Latin Empire3Ahistorical
North Sea3Ahistorical
Al-Andalus3Plausible
Arabia3Plausible
Canada3Plausible
Egypt3Plausible
Germany3Plausible
Italy3Plausible
Malaya3Plausible
Ruthenia3Plausible
Scandinavia3Plausible
Shan3Plausible
Banten3
Bengal3
Deccan3
Delhi3
Ethiopia3
Great Britain3
Gujurat3
Hausa3
Inca3
Kongo3
Manchu3
Maratha3
Mexico3
Poland-Lithuania3
Punjab3
Rajput3
Siam3
Sokoto3
Spain3
Timurids3
Two Sicilies3
Yamato3
Africa2Ahistorical
Carthage2Ahistorical
Hen Ogledd2Ahistorical
Aotearoa2Plausible
Greece2Plausible
Jerusalem2Plausible
Livonia2Plausible
Maya2Plausible
Albania2
Armenia2
Austria2
Ayutthaya2
Bahamis2
England2
Georgia2
Golden Horde2
Holstein2
Ireland2
Navarre2
Nepal2
Netherlands2
Poland2
Prussia2
Scotland2
Serbia2
Sweden2
Switzerland2
Tibet2
Wales2
Connacht1Plausible
Ulster1Plausible
Aïr1
Bavaria1
Beja1
Mazovia1
Mecklenburg1
Mossi1
Nassau1
Northumbria1
Pomerania1
Sardinia1
Saxony1
Silesia1


That's it for today's dev diary. Thanks for reading, and we'll see you next time, where we will talk about Subject Types, and an interesting part of the Castilian player fantasy…
 
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Lotharingia and/or Burgundy-Arles (or just Arles) should really be a formable. The reformation of Lotharingia was historically plausible! Also Maybe a West (or East) Francia/Frankia tag/Frankish tag for some culture groups in France and Germany.
 
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I mean, Spain and Poland-Lithuania are also collections of holdings that are represented as single formable countries, and why would such a thing ever be "ahistorical" when it's really just France & England if England wins the Hundred Years War and unifies the two crowns?

If anything, it's perfect for an alternative route for England as an alternative to forming Great Britain. Great Britain is England that focuses on unifying the Isles and distancing itself from the continent, while the "Angevin Empire" (or any other suitable name that doesn't demand the presence of the Angevins) is an England that remains tied to the continent by never severing its ties with French internal politics.
We could be inspired by a certain vicky 2 mod and call the franco-english union "The dual monarchy". Should prevent england from forming the UK too.
 
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I think it would be cool if you could create Polish–Lithuanian–Ruthenian Commonwealth from PLC as a plausible tag, which could be a way to resolve Khmelnytsky Uprising.
Also, ahistorical Angevin Kingdom or something similar to be formed after winning Hundred Years’ War as England would be awesome.
 
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I know another name for the Timurid Empire is Gulegan, or the Chinese way of calling it, using the capital city of Hari. But I didn't know Turan was one of its names.
Yeah, both Al'Yazdi and the Karsakpay Inscription (which was personally ordered by Timur) referred to the state as Turan. Another name used, if I remember correctly in Shah Rukh times was Iran-o-Turan, meaning "Iran and Turan"
 
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I haven't seen any countrys that can be established in the Chinese region, why?
My bet is that rather than being formable, dynasty names will be established for countries which claim the Chinese Empire. So for example, Yuan isn't actually a separate tag, but simply what Mongolia is called if they're the leader of the Chinese Empire IO. Likewise, Qing will become the name of Manchu/Jin if they seize the IO.

I recognize that it's not fully historical, as to my knowledge, Yuan never "reverted" to Mongolia after they were pushed from China proper by the Ming, but it's an elegant enough solution - if I'm right - that lets dynamic, different dynasties form without the dynastic name being baked into the tag (like in EU4) or having 50 formables to cover for different outcomes for China.
 
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Celtica is a horrendous name for a Pan-Celtic tag, not only is it derived from an exonym, it also just isn't used in any historical context, it's like calling a Pan-Germanic tag Barbaria or calling a Pan-Slavic tag Wendischia, it makes no sense. If you want some names to derive it form, then the Middle Goidelic name for a united Celtic state would be "Na Dál Riata", whereas the modern Irish would be Na Dhá Rialtas, both meaning "The Two Kingdoms", with the term also being heavily linked to the founding of the Kingdom of Alba. It makes much more sense for the name if it was formed by any Goidelic nation, a seperate name could exist for thesame tag if it was formed by a Brythonic nation.
 
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We could be inspired by a certain vicky 2 mod and call the franco-english union "The dual monarchy". Should prevent england from forming the UK too.
The issue with this nomenclature is we would have to come up with names for so many potential dual monarchies. For that of Scotland and England (if they keep the parliaments separate) we get to form the United Kingdom (of Scoland and England), and if they unify the crowns into one then they form the Kingdom of Great Britain - which are both the same country with flavour variations.

If Castile and Aragon unites their crowns, its called Spain. But what about Poland and Lithuania? If we want to merge the crowns ingame what should the name be? What about Austria and Hungary? Hell, lets go insanely ahistorical and form an Union between the Savoyard-Piedmontese and the Neapolitan-Sicilian crown. What should that be named if neither crown in the union reigns superior to the other?

I think for a general rule of thumb, if two crowns are to unite on equal grounds ingame we should be able to form a generic country of unions, and get to choose between the options "United Kingdom of-", "United Crowns of-" "Dual Monarchy of-" and then the name of the two countries connected by hyphens. Exceptions to this would be historical countries like Great Britain, Spain and Two Sicilies which have generally agreed upon, historical, applicable names that aren't restricted to a dynasty or a location which gives it the name (Like Plantagenet Kingdom or Angevin Kingdom). So by this rule, we can form a union of crowns for England and France and just call it the United Crowns of England-France or Dual Monarchy of England-France or United Kingdom of England-France, which we get to choose from an event pop-up when we form the country. As for the Empire rank, it turns to the Anglo-French Empire.

Again, this only applies to the European theatre. Union of crowns on equal grounds is very unlikely in say, the Indonesian or Maghreb regions as the system is quite different.
 
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I don't know how it's curmudgeonly to not want ahistorical names in a game that is supposed to be somewhat about history.
And also: there was an independent country that united the whole region in 1815, within the (probable, I don't know if the enddate has already been announced) timeframe of the game. It was called the (United) Kingdom of the Netherlands. Why would a Netherlands that basically just replicates what it eventually accomplished historically change its name when it obviously did not do so upon that historical achievement?

Compromise: As you wrote above, use the "United Kingdom of the Netherlands" for the entire thing. Netherlands or Kingdom of the Netherlands is the modern portion.

It is curmudgeonly because it doesn't harm you to have a name for the entire region. If you form the Netherlands first, then there is no change when you integrate the rest of the region. It is completely reasonable for me to propose that you get something in recognition of that achievement. The region was integrated and had an identity. Why not get something when you combine all of it?

It is one thing to argue over the name. It is another to say that there should be nothing. You are arguing for nothing. That is curmudgeonly.
 
The German regional formables were always starting goals for a campaign in the HRE. Even if they don't have anything unique for them that the culture didn't already unlock.
So! Could we have Swabia, Franconia, Hannover as rank 1 or 2 plausible tags? Regional formables for the "Rhineland Franconian/Moselle Franconian" and Westphalian/Eastphalian also seem relevant enough to have an early to mid game tag goal like "Rhine/Rhineland" or Westphalia/Eastphalia."
 
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The Scottish cultures belong to the following (Groups) and [Languages]:
  • Scots (British, Scottish) [English Language]
  • Highland (British, Scottish, Celtic) [Gaelic Language]
  • Norse-Gael (British, Scottish, Celtic, Scandinavian) [Gaelic Language]
Could you please confirm or shortly correct my expectation/assumption for the East Slavic cultures and culture groups (CG):
Culture table.png


So that you would not need to write everything by yourself :)
(I also use it as a kind reminder that with this granularity you could return the Rusyn culture and it would be great to create the Verkhovian culture for the Verchovian Duchies around the Oka river)
 
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Are North American colonial nations (Newfoundland/California/Colombia) handled separately?

Also, Gran Colombia, Central America, Lombardy, and Mississippi (for thicc Cahokia)
 
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Hey everyone, and welcome back. Johan is busy today (allegedly) so instead I will walk you through this Tinto Talks on Formable Countries in our little project called Caesar. It’s a fairly tight feature so this should be nice and quick.



What are Formable Countries?

Basically, formable countries are new tags that you can switch to. Typically they represent historical unions and conquests, but some represent aspirations that never materialised.

Generally speaking, the vision behind Formables is to offer roleplaying and historical immersion, and support player fantasies, rather than modifier stacking. They will change your country name, national flag, and map color. So while you may unlock some content such as advances or other minor unique content, the tag change is often the goal in itself.

View attachment 1253582View attachment 1253583
Spain gets some unique advances in the later ages, but not all do.

Rather than your country changing automatically every age, you achieve it by completing certain objectives. Usually, you'll need to control a certain percentage of a predefined set of locations, for example Scandinavia needs 75% of the locations in the Scandinavia region.

There’s typically additional requirements as well such as your Primary Culture belonging to a certain Culture Group. Forming Spain also requires you and all the independent countries in Iberia to be Christian, as it is thematically closely tied to the completion of the Reconquista. Iberian Muslims have the reverse rules for forming Al-Andalus.

Some are directly tied to actions in International Organizations, like the Holy Roman Empire or the Ilkhanate.

Formables also have a Tier that represents their natural order of precedence. You can only form countries that are the same or higher tier than you. For example, England (Tier 2) can form Great Britain (Tier 3) but Great Britain can’t form England. The AI will only form countries that are a higher tier.


View attachment 1253586
Country formation is just a click away.


There are 3 settings to the relevant game rule.
  1. Only Historical Formable Countries
    1. Only countries that actually formed in the game’s time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Spain and Great Britain
  2. Allow Plausible Formable Countries(Default)
    1. Countries that could plausible have formed, or formed just after the time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Germany and Italy
  3. Allow Ahistorical Formable Countries
    1. Aspirational or fantasy countries can be formed. Examples include
      1. North Sea Empire (which is a Tier IV) if you control Britain and Scandinavia
      2. Europa (Tier V)



View attachment 1253589
Some countries have different flags depending on the exact manner in which they are formed. For example this variant of the Union Jack with a dominant saltire when you start as Scotland.


View attachment 1253591
And some formables come with little treats to sweeten the deal.


View attachment 1253592
The Teutonic Order has a long way to go before they can become Prussia…


View attachment 1253593
But it might be worth it…


View attachment 1253594
Some exist to fulfil common player fantasies, but only appear if the player chooses in the Game Rules to have the less historical ones.



This is our current list of formable countries, let us know which ones you would like us add!

FormableTierNote
Europa5Ahistorical
Rome4Ahistorical
Hindustan4Plausible
Holy Roman Empire4Plausible
Byzantium4
Ilkhanate4
Iran4
Mongolia4
Mughals4
Rûm4
Russia4
United States4
Celtica3Ahistorical
Latin Empire3Ahistorical
North Sea3Ahistorical
Al-Andalus3Plausible
Arabia3Plausible
Canada3Plausible
Egypt3Plausible
Germany3Plausible
Italy3Plausible
Malaya3Plausible
Ruthenia3Plausible
Scandinavia3Plausible
Shan3Plausible
Banten3
Bengal3
Deccan3
Delhi3
Ethiopia3
Great Britain3
Gujurat3
Hausa3
Inca3
Kongo3
Manchu3
Maratha3
Mexico3
Poland-Lithuania3
Punjab3
Rajput3
Siam3
Sokoto3
Spain3
Timurids3
Two Sicilies3
Yamato3
Africa2Ahistorical
Carthage2Ahistorical
Hen Ogledd2Ahistorical
Aotearoa2Plausible
Greece2Plausible
Jerusalem2Plausible
Livonia2Plausible
Maya2Plausible
Albania2
Armenia2
Austria2
Ayutthaya2
Bahamis2
England2
Georgia2
Golden Horde2
Holstein2
Ireland2
Navarre2
Nepal2
Netherlands2
Poland2
Prussia2
Scotland2
Serbia2
Sweden2
Switzerland2
Tibet2
Wales2
Connacht1Plausible
Ulster1Plausible
Aïr1
Bavaria1
Beja1
Mazovia1
Mecklenburg1
Mossi1
Nassau1
Northumbria1
Pomerania1
Sardinia1
Saxony1
Silesia1


That's it for today's dev diary. Thanks for reading, and we'll see you next time, where we will talk about Subject Types, and an interesting part of the Castilian player fantasy…

Very interesting Dev Diary.

A formable in Taiwan would be great. Although the Formosan Aboriginals never formed a united state in Taiwan, The Kingdom of Tungning was the first polity to unite the island made up of Ming loyalists fleeing the Manchu invasion. It was the first Han Chinese government to rule Taiwan. It ruled between 1661 and 1683 so fits in snugly as being a historically accurate formable in the game's time period.

Is it possible to have the culture that forms the tag dictate the name of the formable?

In this case, a Portuguese colonial tag would be called Formosa, and a Japanese colonial tag Tōmōsu.
If a Formosan Aboriginal tag rather than a Han tag were to unite the island, it could form, Tayouan. Though this is not directly used, it is considered the historical indigenous root of Taiwan's modern name. It is believed to derive from an aboriginal tribe that lived near Tainan when the Dutch first colonised it. This is why a Dutch colonial formable could also be called Tayouan.
 
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You also see Serbia in 1337. Bulgaria should be on the list for the fact that Bulgaria in 50 years breaks up into several smaller states that should have the ability to re-form into Bulgaria, just as Serbia breaks up into smaller states that should have the ability to re-form Serbia.
Agree. I expect it to be generic feature to form tag that already existed and still has cores. Like in EU4 separatist rebels can establish tag again or release in peace deal. And this may be valit to all starting tags.
 
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