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Tinto Talks #50 - 12th February 2025

Hey everyone, and welcome back. Johan is busy today (allegedly) so instead I will walk you through this Tinto Talks on Formable Countries in our little project called Caesar. It’s a fairly tight feature so this should be nice and quick.



What are Formable Countries?

Basically, formable countries are new tags that you can switch to. Typically they represent historical unions and conquests, but some represent aspirations that never materialised.

Generally speaking, the vision behind Formables is to offer roleplaying and historical immersion, and support player fantasies, rather than modifier stacking. They will change your country name, national flag, and map color. So while you may unlock some content such as advances or other minor unique content, the tag change is often the goal in itself.

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Spain gets some unique advances in the later ages, but not all do.

Rather than your country changing automatically every age, you achieve it by completing certain objectives. Usually, you'll need to control a certain percentage of a predefined set of locations, for example Scandinavia needs 75% of the locations in the Scandinavia region.

There’s typically additional requirements as well such as your Primary Culture belonging to a certain Culture Group. Forming Spain also requires you and all the independent countries in Iberia to be Christian, as it is thematically closely tied to the completion of the Reconquista. Iberian Muslims have the reverse rules for forming Al-Andalus.

Some are directly tied to actions in International Organizations, like the Holy Roman Empire or the Ilkhanate.

Formables also have a Tier that represents their natural order of precedence. You can only form countries that are the same or higher tier than you. For example, England (Tier 2) can form Great Britain (Tier 3) but Great Britain can’t form England. The AI will only form countries that are a higher tier.


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Country formation is just a click away.


There are 3 settings to the relevant game rule.
  1. Only Historical Formable Countries
    1. Only countries that actually formed in the game’s time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Spain and Great Britain
  2. Allow Plausible Formable Countries(Default)
    1. Countries that could plausible have formed, or formed just after the time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Germany and Italy
  3. Allow Ahistorical Formable Countries
    1. Aspirational or fantasy countries can be formed. Examples include
      1. North Sea Empire (which is a Tier IV) if you control Britain and Scandinavia
      2. Europa (Tier V)



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Some countries have different flags depending on the exact manner in which they are formed. For example this variant of the Union Jack with a dominant saltire when you start as Scotland.


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And some formables come with little treats to sweeten the deal.


Screenshot 2025-02-12 123920.png

The Teutonic Order has a long way to go before they can become Prussia…


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But it might be worth it…


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Some exist to fulfil common player fantasies, but only appear if the player chooses in the Game Rules to have the less historical ones.



This is our current list of formable countries, let us know which ones you would like us add!

FormableTierNote
Europa5Ahistorical
Rome4Ahistorical
Hindustan4Plausible
Holy Roman Empire4Plausible
Byzantium4
Ilkhanate4
Iran4
Mongolia4
Mughals4
Rûm4
Russia4
United States4
Celtica3Ahistorical
Latin Empire3Ahistorical
North Sea3Ahistorical
Al-Andalus3Plausible
Arabia3Plausible
Canada3Plausible
Egypt3Plausible
Germany3Plausible
Italy3Plausible
Malaya3Plausible
Ruthenia3Plausible
Scandinavia3Plausible
Shan3Plausible
Banten3
Bengal3
Deccan3
Delhi3
Ethiopia3
Great Britain3
Gujurat3
Hausa3
Inca3
Kongo3
Manchu3
Maratha3
Mexico3
Poland-Lithuania3
Punjab3
Rajput3
Siam3
Sokoto3
Spain3
Timurids3
Two Sicilies3
Yamato3
Africa2Ahistorical
Carthage2Ahistorical
Hen Ogledd2Ahistorical
Aotearoa2Plausible
Greece2Plausible
Jerusalem2Plausible
Livonia2Plausible
Maya2Plausible
Albania2
Armenia2
Austria2
Ayutthaya2
Bahamis2
England2
Georgia2
Golden Horde2
Holstein2
Ireland2
Navarre2
Nepal2
Netherlands2
Poland2
Prussia2
Scotland2
Serbia2
Sweden2
Switzerland2
Tibet2
Wales2
Connacht1Plausible
Ulster1Plausible
Aïr1
Bavaria1
Beja1
Mazovia1
Mecklenburg1
Mossi1
Nassau1
Northumbria1
Pomerania1
Sardinia1
Saxony1
Silesia1


That's it for today's dev diary. Thanks for reading, and we'll see you next time, where we will talk about Subject Types, and an interesting part of the Castilian player fantasy…
 
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Will we get Napoleonic puppet kingdoms (i.e., Kingdom of Westphalia, Grand Duchy of Berg, Kingdom of Italy, etc)?
 
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Something for American Natives. Lots of things actually, I was going to suggest Iroquis Confederation and other similar (imagined) ones but before that there needs to be tags that can form them. But if eg Cahokia conquers the whole North America, it could be called something else than United States.
United Native American States? I'm sure there's some play on words you can make between 'United States of America' and 'Native American' or 'Federation'.
 
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Maybe Inca/ Tahiantinsuyo could be a setting like Byzantium/East Rome
I guess the reason you gave me respect for disagreeing is because of the last sentence I said.
而 Turan 这个名字只存在于阿拉伯的记录中。

That is precisely the kind of gameplay I dream off.
If Mexico were controlled by a major indigenous country, I think it would be better. Anyway, I will ensure that the Americas become as indigenous as possible.
-One of the Shatuo dynasties as a Turkic formable
Shatuo cannot be used as a dynasty name. You should choose a more traditional Chinese expression, which may be Liang or Qin depending on the geographical location of the Shatuo people.
If you believe in Islam, it may be Fu
What would you consider instead? Looking outside of the provinces gets a bit wonky, as most of the Kingdoms either didn't exist for a very long time and/or weren't particularly affiliated with a specific set of locations. Hence I went for the provinces approach, but if implemented I don't want them to be called like the provinces are, instead they should gain a new name separate from the formable made like what generally happened (Wu -> Ming). Its just that the provinces are generally convenient for this and not much else is as far as I am aware. As for Turan, its a more succinct name for what is basically central Asia, which doesn't have an exact equivalent name in any other sense that does not also include large parts of Persia.

Only ones that which I can normally see would be Wu (generally mid-southeast), Yue (generally south), and maybe Jin (generally north central) and Wei (generally central), but what else would cover the rest of China? Perhaps I am not the best person for this task, but I do not see many better options.
In fact, many kingdoms are located in specific places and have been established. You can't just look at the unstable small kingdom formed by the rebel army. You need to look at the location and title of the land granted to your prince by a unified dynasty.
Yeah, both Al'Yazdi and the Karsakpay Inscription (which was personally ordered by Timur) referred to the state as Turan. Another name used, if I remember correctly in Shah Rukh times was Iran-o-Turan, meaning "Iran and Turan"
Thank you for sharing. Before this, I did not know that the Timurid Empire had this title.
My bet is that rather than being formable, dynasty names will be established for countries which claim the Chinese Empire. So for example, Yuan isn't actually a separate tag, but simply what Mongolia is called if they're the leader of the Chinese Empire IO. Likewise, Qing will become the name of Manchu/Jin if they seize the IO.

I recognize that it's not fully historical, as to my knowledge, Yuan never "reverted" to Mongolia after they were pushed from China proper by the Ming, but it's an elegant enough solution - if I'm right - that lets dynamic, different dynasties form without the dynastic name being baked into the tag (like in EU4) or having 50 formables to cover for different outcomes for China.
Perhaps, but I still find it a bit strange because the rebel army will form a small kingdom and then seize the so-called 'mandate of heaven'
 
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United Native American States? I'm sure there's some play on words you can make between 'United States of America' and 'Native American' or 'Federation'.
I think Turtleland is a good name, but perhaps it needs to be changed to an indigenous language name.
 
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There should absolutely be a disaster or event of some sort to give rise to a United Belgian States rebel tag. It's a flavourful expression of quintessential Europa Univeralis mechanics, such as religion, except now they are not nameless Catholic rebels. There should also be an option for the player to form such a tag. Please do not omit such a beautiful piece of history from your games. It is such a good example of a counter-identity. They got taxed heavily by the French, Dutch, Spanish, Austrians ... and they decided enough is enough. They are not French, they are not Dutch and they believe that only they have the right to tax their population excessively. These days a Belgian state seems to be more plausible to have in-game then in real life.
 
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Another +1 for Romania as Plausible. Tier 2 probably. Or if you want to make it even more granular: United Principalities as tier 1 and Romania as tier 2.
 
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As for the formable, there are a couple of clear suspect missing in the italian area:

Sardinia-Piedmont (with obligatory toothpaste map color)
Granduchy of Tuscany
and, sort of related in the area, Confederation Helvetique

All those states formed historically, and within the timeframe of the game. Moreover, why two sicilies yes and not those?

All of these would fit into what I think would be tier 2, but at the same time, two sicilies is tier 3 while Netherland and Austria are tier 2, so maybe I don't understand the logic grounding the tiers.
 
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Shouldn't Denmark be reformable? It would make sense as an achievement to get the old "Estridsen" dynasty back by starting as Slesvig and reforming Denmark.
Well hopefully there are events in place to get Valdemar Atterdag on the throne, so the Estridsen dynasty should become rulers of Denmark again regardless
 
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't Belgium be formable?
Since the game ends in 1837 we should be able to end up having the same tags as we have in Victoria II at start, in my modest opinion.
 
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Névtelen.png

I would like to suggest the Anjou Empire as a possible country to create, similar to the later Habsburg Empire. At one time, Louis the Great had ambitions to gain the throne of Naples after the death of his younger brother Andrew. Louis defeated the Neapolitans several times, but the political environment did not allow him to crown himself and he had to abandon his Neapolitan plans. So I suggest that if the player manages to acquire Hungary, Poland, Croatia and Naples, or something similar, then let him create the Anjou Empire. I would recommend the following for a flag:

flag.png
 
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Is "Bahamis" supposed to Bahamanis? In that case I wanna ask why is that a formable tag separate from Deccan? I think it should be just called the Bahamanid sultanate of Deccan.
 
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Having the Rhineland would be great! I don't mean the Condereration of the Rhine, but a country for the 'rhenish' cultures (I know there is not a singular rhenish culture), similair to Westphalia.
It would probably be Tier I and ahistorical (or maybe plausible).
 
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1. I like the tier system, it's a version of endgame tags that makes a lot more sense.
2. I don't see a Qing formable or Ming for that matter, or any of that sort. I assume there's going to be some other specific mechanics for China instead?
3. France should be a reformable tag. It could even have some nice flavour where you can also form it with a German culture minor and it would become Frankia instead, if that's possible.
4. Hungary should also be a reformable tag for an independent Transylvania. Historically it was the goal of Transylvanian princes to take back the land and crown of Hungary from Austria, and the region stayed as a major area of Hungarian resistance when the principality was eventually taken.
5. Other freed colonial countries like Brazil, Australia, Argentine, Cuba, etc could also be formable.
6. The Danubian Confederation could be a fun ahistorical tag to form. It was a mid-late 19th century idea, so probably outside the scope of the game, but not neccessarily an impossibility.
 
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