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Tinto Talks #50 - 12th February 2025

Hey everyone, and welcome back. Johan is busy today (allegedly) so instead I will walk you through this Tinto Talks on Formable Countries in our little project called Caesar. It’s a fairly tight feature so this should be nice and quick.



What are Formable Countries?

Basically, formable countries are new tags that you can switch to. Typically they represent historical unions and conquests, but some represent aspirations that never materialised.

Generally speaking, the vision behind Formables is to offer roleplaying and historical immersion, and support player fantasies, rather than modifier stacking. They will change your country name, national flag, and map color. So while you may unlock some content such as advances or other minor unique content, the tag change is often the goal in itself.

Screenshot 2025-02-12 113332.png
Screenshot 2025-02-12 112612.png

Spain gets some unique advances in the later ages, but not all do.

Rather than your country changing automatically every age, you achieve it by completing certain objectives. Usually, you'll need to control a certain percentage of a predefined set of locations, for example Scandinavia needs 75% of the locations in the Scandinavia region.

There’s typically additional requirements as well such as your Primary Culture belonging to a certain Culture Group. Forming Spain also requires you and all the independent countries in Iberia to be Christian, as it is thematically closely tied to the completion of the Reconquista. Iberian Muslims have the reverse rules for forming Al-Andalus.

Some are directly tied to actions in International Organizations, like the Holy Roman Empire or the Ilkhanate.

Formables also have a Tier that represents their natural order of precedence. You can only form countries that are the same or higher tier than you. For example, England (Tier 2) can form Great Britain (Tier 3) but Great Britain can’t form England. The AI will only form countries that are a higher tier.


Screenshot 2025-02-12 124554.png

Country formation is just a click away.


There are 3 settings to the relevant game rule.
  1. Only Historical Formable Countries
    1. Only countries that actually formed in the game’s time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Spain and Great Britain
  2. Allow Plausible Formable Countries(Default)
    1. Countries that could plausible have formed, or formed just after the time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Germany and Italy
  3. Allow Ahistorical Formable Countries
    1. Aspirational or fantasy countries can be formed. Examples include
      1. North Sea Empire (which is a Tier IV) if you control Britain and Scandinavia
      2. Europa (Tier V)



Screenshot 2025-02-12 121247.png

Some countries have different flags depending on the exact manner in which they are formed. For example this variant of the Union Jack with a dominant saltire when you start as Scotland.


1739361227786.png

And some formables come with little treats to sweeten the deal.


Screenshot 2025-02-12 123920.png

The Teutonic Order has a long way to go before they can become Prussia…


Screenshot 2025-02-12 124144.png

But it might be worth it…


Screenshot 2025-02-12 121702.png

Some exist to fulfil common player fantasies, but only appear if the player chooses in the Game Rules to have the less historical ones.



This is our current list of formable countries, let us know which ones you would like us add!

FormableTierNote
Europa5Ahistorical
Rome4Ahistorical
Hindustan4Plausible
Holy Roman Empire4Plausible
Byzantium4
Ilkhanate4
Iran4
Mongolia4
Mughals4
Rûm4
Russia4
United States4
Celtica3Ahistorical
Latin Empire3Ahistorical
North Sea3Ahistorical
Al-Andalus3Plausible
Arabia3Plausible
Canada3Plausible
Egypt3Plausible
Germany3Plausible
Italy3Plausible
Malaya3Plausible
Ruthenia3Plausible
Scandinavia3Plausible
Shan3Plausible
Banten3
Bengal3
Deccan3
Delhi3
Ethiopia3
Great Britain3
Gujurat3
Hausa3
Inca3
Kongo3
Manchu3
Maratha3
Mexico3
Poland-Lithuania3
Punjab3
Rajput3
Siam3
Sokoto3
Spain3
Timurids3
Two Sicilies3
Yamato3
Africa2Ahistorical
Carthage2Ahistorical
Hen Ogledd2Ahistorical
Aotearoa2Plausible
Greece2Plausible
Jerusalem2Plausible
Livonia2Plausible
Maya2Plausible
Albania2
Armenia2
Austria2
Ayutthaya2
Bahamis2
England2
Georgia2
Golden Horde2
Holstein2
Ireland2
Navarre2
Nepal2
Netherlands2
Poland2
Prussia2
Scotland2
Serbia2
Sweden2
Switzerland2
Tibet2
Wales2
Connacht1Plausible
Ulster1Plausible
Aïr1
Bavaria1
Beja1
Mazovia1
Mecklenburg1
Mossi1
Nassau1
Northumbria1
Pomerania1
Sardinia1
Saxony1
Silesia1


That's it for today's dev diary. Thanks for reading, and we'll see you next time, where we will talk about Subject Types, and an interesting part of the Castilian player fantasy…
 
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Noting the "plausible" tier, I have questions about the tags of Italy, Greece, and Egypt.
About Italy, it was historically created as the Kingdom of Italy under Napoleon, but it certainly does not fit the modern conception of Italy. The Napoleonic wars content can be hard to model (consolidating subjects etc), but it would be interesting to be able to recreate something like that to a degree.
This brings me to Egypt, which I assume is distinct to the Mamluks. The Egypt of Muhammed Ali is certainly closer in terms of continuity of government to modern day Egypt than the Mamluks, so I don't understand why Egypt is seen as "plausible" and not "historical". Unless it is meant to model something else, which I am not sure what that would be.
Finally, Greece should be historical as of 1821, but even prior to that we see significant Greek revolts under the Ottomans. The question then becomes at what point do we switch between "Byzantine rebels" and "Greek rebels"? Would a successful revolt by Greeks in 1815 recreate Byzantium? There's a lot to be said about the continuity of the "Roman identity" by Greeks well into the 19th century, but a rebel state after centuries of obscurity would definitely not have the prestige (or tier) of the Roman Empire.
I think the elegant solution to these questions can be found by time-locking the historicity or plausibility of the formable. Either by using ages to limit them or other events e.g. Byzantine revolts are Greek revolts if Byzantium doesn't exist for 200 years.
 
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Why is Rûm tier 4 ? It looks more like a regional tag like Spain or Scandinavia, or even lesser since Spain rank could be compared to the Ottoman Empire ?

And why is the Ottoman Empire not in the list ?
 
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1. Why is Mongolia T4? I'd assume that would be Mongol Empire, but in that case, I'd rather see Mongol Empire and have Mongolia be a very minor (T1) formable with *just* the Mongolian lands. (Unless there's some kind of dynamic naming system I missed or forgot about, of course.)
2. I'd like to see a Polynesian formable larger than just Aotearoa. I know it's not particularly plausible, but I like them.
3. I'd also like to see First Nations formables - possibly something representing confederations?
4. Will achievements require specific settings on formable nations?
 
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Will it be possible to break/revert these formables via peace treaties? For example, if Great Britain was forced to release Scotland in a peace treaty, or lost the last location it posessed in the area considered to be Scotland, logically it cannot continue to be the Kingdom of Great Britain, since that was dependent on England and Scotland being united. It should revert to being the Kingdom of England once more.
 
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Something about there only being one tier 5 formable feels off to me, especially since even a United Europe is still comparable in size to China, The United States, and Rome at its peak. At the very least China and the Caliphate should be tier 5 formables, either that or make "Europa" a tier 4 formable, possibly replacing it with two tags (Pan-Germanic Union and Pan-Slavic union). I would also not complain about "Europa" being scrapped entirely, since it likely won't contribute much to the game besides "OMG I MADE UNIFIED EUROPA EMPIRE IN EU5:eek::eek:" clickbait youtube videos.
 
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I'm curious as Arabia as a plausible formable, rather than historic. Is it supposed to represent the Emirate of Diriyah (the first Saudi state)? That was formed in 1721 and controlled most of Arabia by 1744. Is that not considered to be within the timespan of the game? Or does Arabia represent an Arabian state that never existed in real life, but could have plausibly formed?

And why are Ulster and Connacht plausible formable, but other Irish provinces aren't? If you are playing an Irish tag outside one of those provinces, is the goal to just stay as whomever you are until you get to Ireland? But if you're playing in Connacht, you have that as a stepping stone before Ireland?
 
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I get this, especially seeing all the crazy nation formation runs in EU4 where people form 20+ different nations, but I hope there is some good mechanical rewards for forming a nation. A good example in EU4 is the Prussian Monarchy being the reward for forming Prussia.
For this, I'm hoping instead of the eu4 thing with gov cap and mil tradeoff for free, maybe the reforms wil have to do with early access or better military cantons, or something? I admittedly don't know all the specifics about the historical reforms for Prussia, but hopeful.

And I like the Russia decision too. Is it a way to represent how the Eastern Slavic cultures that weren't in Russia at its unification kept their identities while the ones present in Russia were subsumed into 'Russian'?
 
The fact that Europa exists as a tier 5 tag makes me think it's only fair for Africa (the entire continent), south america, north america, asia, and oceania to also exist as tier 5 tags. And then, the ompossible goal, the tier 6 world unity tag.
 
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Bit disappointed the Angevin/Plantagenet Empire is not in, given that the game starts at the dawn of the HYW, would easily sacrifice Carthage for its inclusion

Beyond that though that's a pretty good list of tags, would recommend adding Rigas Feraios' Balkan Federation though- it's conception is within the timeframe of the game.
 
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I'd love to see the Northwestern Confederacy added somehow.

Depending on how North America is set up, I believe the following should be formables as well:
- Haudenosaunee/Iroquois
- Cherokee
- Muscogee (Creek)
- Caddo
- Wichita
- Seminole*
- Choctaw**
- Catawba**

*might be better represented by other means (i.e. something similar to Ashanti/Zulu in EU4)

**currently exist as a single SOP so not necessarily possible unless they're split

Most postcolonial North American nations have already been mentioned, but I'd throw in historical West Florida and a plausible New Mexico and Yucatan.
 
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Europa is a really cool formable but does it have any actual flavor? Even if it's just a couple innovations in the last age plus a couple events and like a unit or something, that would add a lot of it versus it just being the "I definitely won now" tag...
 
Is it possible for tags to have different names and/or flags depending on different formation conditions?
I'm asking, in particular, because I believe tags of Ukrainian and Belarusian cultures should also be able to form Russia but under a different name (The East Slavic lands were still called Rus' in Old Ukrainian and Belarusian).
The reasoning for that is as follows: Since the Tsardom of Russia was, historically, formed as an attempt to claim direct continuity with Kyivan Rus', it is logical that other East Slavic principalities would try to achieve that same goal, not just the North-Eastern ones.
As such, in-game Ruthenian-speaking tags should also be able to form the Russia tag but renamed to Rus' and, possibly, with a different flag, since the Russian double-headed eagle is derived from the "Third Rome" connection to Byzantium which was unique to Moscow.
 
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I would also like to suggest some:

Belgium
Gaul
Occitania
Aquitania
Bretagne
Lorraine
Lotharingia
Burgundy
Western Roman Empire

Baltica (United Baltics)
White Russia
Red Russia

Finland
Ugria
Yugoslavia (Southern Slavs)
Zapadoslavia (Western Slavs)
Vostokoslavia (Eastern Slavs)
Slavia (all slavs united)

Bohemia
Hungary
Romania
Aromania
Bulgaria
Serbia
Croatia
Slovenia
Dalmatia
Illyria
Thracia
Dacia
Macedonia (ancient and/or contemporary slavic)

Swabia
Hannover
Rhineland
Thuringia
Franconia
Hesse
Westphalia
Eastphalia
Hanseatic Union
Friesland
Neustria
East Francia
West Francia
Francia (United Frankish Empire)

Styria
Alpine State
Corsica
Etruria
Tuscany
Lombardy

Lusitania (Hispania if formed by Portugal)
Iberia

Circassia
Caucasia
Anatolia
Syria
Assyria
Bosporan Kingdom/Gothia
Kurdistan
Babylon
Levant

Maghreb
Mauretania (Ahistorical ancient, not contemporary maghrebi)
Egypt (Ahistorcial ancient, not contemporary arabic)

Mali
Nigeria
Guinea
Hausa
Tuareg
Sahel
West Africa
Swahilia (East Africa)
South Africa
Central Africa
Sudan
Madagascar
United Africa (Sub-saharan, or whole)

Andes
La Plata
Gran Colombia
South America
Central America
Caribbean (West Indies)
Vinland
Quebec
North America
United America

Polynesia
Micronesia
Melanesia
Philippines
Borneo
Sumatra
Java
New Guinea
Indonesia
Austronesia

Khmer
Vietnam
Laos
Indochina

Dravidia
Burma
Balochistan
Pashtunistan
Kazakhstan
Turkmenistan
Uzbekistan
Turkestan
Siberia

Manchuria
Korea
China (multiple versions, han, manchu, mongolian, etc.)

If I missed a few, I elcome everyone to help expand it.
 
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That is a very, very generous helping of unique formables :eek:

The Latin Empire still exists nominally. The Latin Empress Catherine II (half-sister to King Philippe VI of France) still lives in 1337, but the tag itself lost all of their lands less than 100 years ago. Will there be events to help Catherine reform it somehow, as she has no land to her name? Or will this be ignored and whomever can form it if they meet the reqs?

And is Africa the province of Africa, that being the Maghreb, or the entire continent of Africa? If the former, then it is time to restore the Kingdom of the Vandals & Alans in Africa!

P.S. Can we get a secret Kingdom of the Visigoths if by miracle Theodoro manages to conquer & convert all of Iberia to Gothic, pretty please? I mean it was more recent than both Rome & Carthage :p

Also, also, is Gothic a Germanic language yet? The last time we saw languages in the region it was grouped into the same group as Greek which makes no sense.
Gothic was heavily hellenized during this period and on its way to extinction, there were some reports of people allegedly singing in a language understandable to germans in crimea but idk if it has been conclusively identified as gothic.
 
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It's strange that I haven't seen any founding countries in the Chinese region. Here are my suggestions for establishing a country in China.
  • 鲁,Lu,grade:3
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Shandong Province
      • Is your culture Jiaolai or Qilu
    • Special situation: You start with Yansheng Sheng and are a descendant of Confucius,grade:4
  • 齐,Qi,grade:4
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Shandong Province
      • Is your culture Jiaolai or Qilu
  • 金,Jin,grade:4
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Manchuria Province
      • Is your culture Jurchen or Manchu
  • 大清,Da Qing,grade:5
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Manchuria Province
      • Is your culture Jurchen or Manchu
    • Special conditions:You have taken over the tribute system and become the new core, declaring yourself the true China.
  • 晋,Jin,grade:5
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Shanxi Province
      • Is your culture Jinzhao
  • 秦,Qin,grade:5
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Shannxi Province
      • Is your culture Qinlong
  • 凉,Liang,grade:3
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Gansu Province
      • Is your culture Hexi
  • 邦泥定/大高白国/西夏/弥药,Bangniding/Da Gao Bai Kingdom/Xia/Miyao,grade:3
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Gansu Province
      • Is your culture Tangut
    • Special situation: The name of your country will change according to your preference for that culture.
  • 福,Fu,grade:3
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You believe in Islam
  • 契丹/辽,Khitan/Liao,grade:4
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Liaoning Province
      • Is your culture Khitan
    • Special situation: The name of your country will change according to your preference for that culture.
  • 大元,Da Yuan,grade:5
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • Is your culture Mongolian
      • You are a descendant of the Golden Family
    • Special conditions:The Yuan Dynasty has been destroyed and does not exist
  • 大明,Da Ming,grade:5
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You are Zhu Yuanzhang
      • You are a member of the Red Turban Army and successfully overthrew the Yuan Dynasty
      • You are Han Linger and have escaped assassination. In the event, you chose to use your royal title as the national title.
    • Special situation: If you believe in Manichaeism, you can unlock missions to the Persian region. Manichaeism will be renamed Mingjiao
  • 大顺,Da Shun,grade:4
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You are Li Zicheng
  • 大西,Da Xi,grade:3
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You are Zhang Xianzhong
    • Special situation: If you successfully enter the Sichuan region, you will unlock the massacre mechanism, which can kill POPs on a large scale and accelerate cultural change.
  • 闯,Chuang,grade:3
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You are Gao Yingxiang
  • 宋,Song,grade:4
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You are a member of the Red Turban Army
      • You are a descendant of the royal family of the Song Dynasty
      • You are Han Linger
    • Special conditions:You are Emperor Shun of the Yuan Dynasty, and during the incident, you discovered your true identity as a member of the imperial family of the Song Dynasty. grade:5
  • 汉,Han,grade:5
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • Your surname is Liu
      • You started in Sichuan or Hanzhong
  • 蜀,Shu,grade:4
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You started in Sichuan
  • 巴,Ba,grade:3
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You started in Chongqing
  • 大和,Da He,grade:5
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • Starting from Japan, it is Japanese culture that has unified Japan
    • Special conditions:You have taken over the tribute system and become the new core, declaring yourself the true China.
  • 大韩,Da Han,grade:5
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from the Korean, you are Korean culture
    • Special conditions:You have taken over the tribute system and become the new core, declaring yourself the true China.
  • 越,Yue,grade:3
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Zhejiang Province
      • Is your culture Jiangnan
    • Special conditions:You are Vietnam,You have taken over the tribute system and become the new core, declaring yourself the true China. grade:5,change the country name to Da Viet
  • 闽,Min,grade:3
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Zhejiang Province
      • Is your culture Min or Hakkas
    • Special situation: You will unlock China's colonialism and spread it everywhere, paving the way for overseas colonization.
  • 粤,Yue,grade:3
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Guangdong or Guangxi Province
      • Is your culture Yue or Hakkas
At present, it is not complete, and I will continue to update it in the future.

First update:
  • 吴,Wu,grade:4
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Zhejiang Province
      • Is your culture Jiangnan or Jianghuai
    • Special conditions:
      • You are Zhu Yuanzhang, you need Han Linger to survive
      • You are Zhang Shicheng, and we need Han Linger's death,The satisfaction of the merchant class has increased, and you can negotiate separately with the Yuan Dynasty.
  • 楚,Chu,grade:4
  • 淮,Huai,grade:3
  • 莱,Lai,grade:2
  • 兰陵,Lan Ling,grade:1
  • 东宁,Dong Ning,grade:3
  • 兰芳,Lan Fang,grade:2
  • 河仙,He Xian,grade:2
  • 扶桑,Fu Sang,grade:4
  • 绝岛,Jue Dao,grade:4
  • 大理/南诏,Da Li/Nan Zhao,grade:3
  • 播,Bo,grade:3
  • 蕃,Bo,grade:5
  • 赵,Zhao,grade:3
  • 陈,Chen,grade:4
  • 宁,Ning,grade:3
  • 火,Huo,grade:3
  • 西汉金山国,Xi Han Jin Shan Kingdom,grade:4
  • 梁,Liang,grade:4
  • 魏,Wei,grade:4
  • 渤海/大真,Balhae/Da Zhen,grade:3
  • 新,Xin,grade:5
  • 中华,Zhong Hua,grade:5
  • 天完,Tian Wan,grade:4
  • 太平天国,Taiping Heavenly Empire,grade:4
  • 雍,Yong,grade:2
  • 乾,Qian,grade:5
  • 成,Cheng,grade:4
  • 周,Zhou,grade:5
  • 商,Shang,grade:4
  • 虞,Yu,grade:3
  • 郑,Zheng,grade:3
  • 燕,Yan,grade:4
  • 天竺,Tian Zhu,grade:4
  • 日本,Ri Ben,grade:3
  • 林邑,Lin Yi,grade:2
  • 朝鲜,Chao Xian,grade:3
  • 交趾,Jiao Zhi,grade:3
  • 黑水,Hei Shui,grade:3
  • 藏,Zang,grade:3
  • 北海,Bei Hai,grade:3
  • 麓川,Lu Chuan,grade:3
  • 骠,Piao,grade:3
  • 安息,An Xi,grade:4
  • 大秦,Da Qin,grade:4
  • 昆仑,Kun Lun,grade:4
  • 启明,Qi Ming,grade:5
While I was excitedly updating this list, I received a new message. I give up updating it
I probably won't be speaking on this forum anymore. The new DLC of HOI4 allows India to get almost the entire core of China.
The last time the Ottoman Empire was able to obtain the core from Persia to Shanxi was already very unreasonable, and this time it started to fabricate without even a realistic basis.
At the same time, no Chinese power can obtain the core of the Qinghai Tibet Plateau, and they cannot even form modern borders. Not to mention returning to the borders of the Qing Dynasty.
I am very disappointed with them. I think they will not refer to any suggestions I put forward. They will only refer to Indians, Turks or whatever.
If paradoxes really want to make money in China, they should at least learn to respect them. Instead of malicious mockery.
 
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