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Tinto Talks #50 - 12th February 2025

Hey everyone, and welcome back. Johan is busy today (allegedly) so instead I will walk you through this Tinto Talks on Formable Countries in our little project called Caesar. It’s a fairly tight feature so this should be nice and quick.



What are Formable Countries?

Basically, formable countries are new tags that you can switch to. Typically they represent historical unions and conquests, but some represent aspirations that never materialised.

Generally speaking, the vision behind Formables is to offer roleplaying and historical immersion, and support player fantasies, rather than modifier stacking. They will change your country name, national flag, and map color. So while you may unlock some content such as advances or other minor unique content, the tag change is often the goal in itself.

Screenshot 2025-02-12 113332.png
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Spain gets some unique advances in the later ages, but not all do.

Rather than your country changing automatically every age, you achieve it by completing certain objectives. Usually, you'll need to control a certain percentage of a predefined set of locations, for example Scandinavia needs 75% of the locations in the Scandinavia region.

There’s typically additional requirements as well such as your Primary Culture belonging to a certain Culture Group. Forming Spain also requires you and all the independent countries in Iberia to be Christian, as it is thematically closely tied to the completion of the Reconquista. Iberian Muslims have the reverse rules for forming Al-Andalus.

Some are directly tied to actions in International Organizations, like the Holy Roman Empire or the Ilkhanate.

Formables also have a Tier that represents their natural order of precedence. You can only form countries that are the same or higher tier than you. For example, England (Tier 2) can form Great Britain (Tier 3) but Great Britain can’t form England. The AI will only form countries that are a higher tier.


Screenshot 2025-02-12 124554.png

Country formation is just a click away.


There are 3 settings to the relevant game rule.
  1. Only Historical Formable Countries
    1. Only countries that actually formed in the game’s time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Spain and Great Britain
  2. Allow Plausible Formable Countries(Default)
    1. Countries that could plausible have formed, or formed just after the time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Germany and Italy
  3. Allow Ahistorical Formable Countries
    1. Aspirational or fantasy countries can be formed. Examples include
      1. North Sea Empire (which is a Tier IV) if you control Britain and Scandinavia
      2. Europa (Tier V)



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Some countries have different flags depending on the exact manner in which they are formed. For example this variant of the Union Jack with a dominant saltire when you start as Scotland.


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And some formables come with little treats to sweeten the deal.


Screenshot 2025-02-12 123920.png

The Teutonic Order has a long way to go before they can become Prussia…


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But it might be worth it…


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Some exist to fulfil common player fantasies, but only appear if the player chooses in the Game Rules to have the less historical ones.



This is our current list of formable countries, let us know which ones you would like us add!

FormableTierNote
Europa5Ahistorical
Rome4Ahistorical
Hindustan4Plausible
Holy Roman Empire4Plausible
Byzantium4
Ilkhanate4
Iran4
Mongolia4
Mughals4
Rûm4
Russia4
United States4
Celtica3Ahistorical
Latin Empire3Ahistorical
North Sea3Ahistorical
Al-Andalus3Plausible
Arabia3Plausible
Canada3Plausible
Egypt3Plausible
Germany3Plausible
Italy3Plausible
Malaya3Plausible
Ruthenia3Plausible
Scandinavia3Plausible
Shan3Plausible
Banten3
Bengal3
Deccan3
Delhi3
Ethiopia3
Great Britain3
Gujurat3
Hausa3
Inca3
Kongo3
Manchu3
Maratha3
Mexico3
Poland-Lithuania3
Punjab3
Rajput3
Siam3
Sokoto3
Spain3
Timurids3
Two Sicilies3
Yamato3
Africa2Ahistorical
Carthage2Ahistorical
Hen Ogledd2Ahistorical
Aotearoa2Plausible
Greece2Plausible
Jerusalem2Plausible
Livonia2Plausible
Maya2Plausible
Albania2
Armenia2
Austria2
Ayutthaya2
Bahamis2
England2
Georgia2
Golden Horde2
Holstein2
Ireland2
Navarre2
Nepal2
Netherlands2
Poland2
Prussia2
Scotland2
Serbia2
Sweden2
Switzerland2
Tibet2
Wales2
Connacht1Plausible
Ulster1Plausible
Aïr1
Bavaria1
Beja1
Mazovia1
Mecklenburg1
Mossi1
Nassau1
Northumbria1
Pomerania1
Sardinia1
Saxony1
Silesia1


That's it for today's dev diary. Thanks for reading, and we'll see you next time, where we will talk about Subject Types, and an interesting part of the Castilian player fantasy…
 
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A great list!

Some additions I'd suggest (most of which others have suggested, but which I'll mention anyways to show my support for them).

Aztec Triple Alliance (Tier 3)

Cēmānāhuac (Tier 3, Plausible), the same as the Aztecs but for Nahua states not in the Valley of Mexico

A Purépecha equivalent of Cēmānāhuac (Tier 3, Plausible, not sure what it would be called though)

Haudenosaunee/Iroquois (Tier 3)

Great Arabia/Caliphate (Tier 5, plausible), a tag for Arab Muslim states that consists of all the lands ever held by the Umayyads and Abbasids.

Bhāratavarṣa (Tier 4, Plausible), united India for Hindus (and also Buddhists and Jains if they somehow take over a country).

Maghreb (Tier 3, Plausible)

Outremer (Tier 4, Ahistorical), inspired by Crusader Kings, what Jerusalem can turn into if they conquer the whole Middle-East.

Romania (Tier 3)

Prydain/Bhreatainn (Tier 3, Ahistorical), Great Britain but for Celts.

Somalia (Tier 3, Plausible)

Occitania/Languedoc (Tier 2, Plausible)
 
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Could you put the Dominican Republic as formable? It wasn't in the EU4, but Cuba was, even though the Dominican Republic was older, or at least its original name was "Haiti in Spanish."
 
excellent work, regarding the countries being formed in the region of the Caucasus and Iran, you can add Caucasian Albania, Talyshistan, Kurdistan, Mountain Republic/Kingdom/Emirate, depending on the religion and form of government, and just like in some other regions, you can add the formation of the Caucasian Emirate or the Kingdom of the Caucasus (for pagan religions I haven’t come up with names yet)
 
It's strange that I haven't seen any founding countries in the Chinese region. Here are my suggestions for establishing a country in China.
  • 鲁,Lu,grade:3
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Shandong Province
      • Is your culture Jiaolai or Qilu
    • Special situation: You start with Yansheng Sheng and are a descendant of Confucius,grade:4
  • 齐,Qi,grade:4
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Shandong Province
      • Is your culture Jiaolai or Qilu
  • 金,Jin,grade:4
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Manchuria Province
      • Is your culture Jurchen or Manchu
  • 清,Qing,grade:5
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Manchuria Province
      • Is your culture Jurchen or Manchu
    • Special conditions:You have taken over the tribute system and become the new core, declaring yourself the true China.
  • 晋,Jin,grade:4
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Shanxi Province
      • Is your culture Jinzhao
  • 秦,Qin,grade:4
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Shannxi Province
      • Is your culture Qinlong
  • 凉,Liang,grade:3
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Gansu Province
      • Is your culture Hexi
  • 邦泥顶/大高白国/西夏/弥药,Bangniding/DaGaoBai Kingdom/Xixia/Miyao,grade:3
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Gansu Province
      • Is your culture Tangut
    • Special situation: The name of your country will change according to your preference for that culture.
  • 福,Fu,grade:3
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You believe in Islam
  • 契丹/辽,Khitan/Liao,grade:4
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Liaoning Province
      • Is your culture Khitan
    • Special situation: The name of your country will change according to your preference for that culture.
  • 元,Yuan,grade:5
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • Is your culture Mongolian
      • You are a descendant of the Golden Family
    • Special conditions:The Yuan Dynasty has been destroyed and does not exist
  • 明,Ming,grade:5
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You are Zhu Yuanzhang
      • You are a member of the Red Turban Army and successfully overthrew the Yuan Dynasty
      • You are Han Linger and have escaped assassination. In the event, you chose to use your royal title as the national title.
    • Special situation: If you believe in Manichaeism, you can unlock missions to the Persian region. Manichaeism will be renamed Mingjiao
  • 顺,Shun,grade:4
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You are Li Zicheng
  • 西,Xi,grade:3
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You are Zhang Xianzhong
    • Special situation: If you successfully enter the Sichuan region, you will unlock the massacre mechanism, which can kill POPs on a large scale and accelerate cultural change.
  • 闯,Chuang,grade:3
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You are Gao Yingxiang
  • 宋,Song,grade:4
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You are a member of the Red Turban Army
      • You are a descendant of the royal family of the Song Dynasty
      • You are Han Linger
    • Special conditions:You are Emperor Shun of the Yuan Dynasty, and during the incident, you discovered your true identity as a member of the imperial family of the Song Dynasty. grade:5
  • 汉,Han,grade:5
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • Your surname is Liu
      • You started in Sichuan or Hanzhong
  • 蜀,Shu,grade:3
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You started in Sichuan
  • 巴,Ba,grade:2
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You started in Chongqing
  • 和,He,grade:4
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • Starting from Japan, it is Japanese culture that has unified Japan
    • Special conditions:You have taken over the tribute system and become the new core, declaring yourself the true China.
  • 韩,Han,grade:4
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from the Korean, you are Korean culture
    • Special conditions:You have taken over the tribute system and become the new core, declaring yourself the true China.
  • 越,Yue,grade:3
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Zhejiang Province
      • Is your culture Jiangnan
    • Special conditions:You are Vietnam,You have taken over the tribute system and become the new core, declaring yourself the true China. grade:4,change the country name to Viet
  • 闽,Min,grade:2
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Zhejiang Province
      • Is your culture Min or Hakkas
    • Special situation: You will unlock China's colonialism and spread it everywhere, paving the way for overseas colonization.
  • 粤,Yue,grade:2
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Guangdong or Guangxi Province
      • Is your culture Yue or Hakkas
At present, it is not complete, and I will continue to update it in the future.
Wooo yeah baby that’s what I’ve been waiting for, that's what it’s all about, waaaaaaaa!
 
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I'm assuming that Iran, Yamato, and Timurids (I didn't realize they were officially called Turan either until just now, thanks for that info) will have alternate names options like Byzantium/Eastern Rome.

Will China, Asante, and Haudenosaunee be a formable options or are there other methods to create them?

I also agree that Hawaiʻi (tier 2), Nusantara (tier 3 or 4), Madagascar (tier 3), and Quisqueya or Ayiti (tier 2 or 3, the 6 cacicazgos of Hispanola should be settled countries) should be on that list of formable countries. I swear all of those being island nations is just coincidental!
 
Wooo yeah baby that’s what I’ve been waiting for, that's what it’s all about, waaaaaaaa!
If it weren't for the time being too late, I would have continued writing it. However, the large number of homophones in between is a problem.
For example, 金 and 晋 have the same pronunciation, but they are clearly two different countries.
 
Noting the "plausible" tier, I have questions about the tags of Italy, Greece, and Egypt.
About Italy, it was historically created as the Kingdom of Italy under Napoleon, but it certainly does not fit the modern conception of Italy. The Napoleonic wars content can be hard to model (consolidating subjects etc), but it would be interesting to be able to recreate something like that to a degree.
This brings me to Egypt, which I assume is distinct to the Mamluks. The Egypt of Muhammed Ali is certainly closer in terms of continuity of government to modern day Egypt than the Mamluks, so I don't understand why Egypt is seen as "plausible" and not "historical". Unless it is meant to model something else, which I am not sure what that would be.
Finally, Greece should be historical as of 1821, but even prior to that we see significant Greek revolts under the Ottomans. The question then becomes at what point do we switch between "Byzantine rebels" and "Greek rebels"? Would a successful revolt by Greeks in 1815 recreate Byzantium? There's a lot to be said about the continuity of the "Roman identity" by Greeks well into the 19th century, but a rebel state after centuries of obscurity would definitely not have the prestige (or tier) of the Roman Empire.
I think the elegant solution to these questions can be found by time-locking the historicity or plausibility of the formable. Either by using ages to limit them or other events e.g. Byzantine revolts are Greek revolts if Byzantium doesn't exist for 200 years.
I think Greece is plausible because it was not formed by another nation which this mechanic represents instead Greece was formed by a rebellion irl
 
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I'm assuming that Iran, Yamato, and Timurids (I didn't realize they were officially called Turan either until just now, thanks for that info) will have alternate names options like Byzantium/Eastern Rome.

Will China, Asante, and Haudenosaunee be a formable options or are there other methods to create them?

I also agree that Hawaiʻi (tier 2), Nusantara (tier 3 or 4), Madagascar (tier 3), and Quisqueya (tier 2 or 3, the 6 cacicazgos of Hispanola should be settled countries) should be on that list of formable countries. I swear all of those being island nations is just coincidental!
Yeah, though in the case of Yamato, this doesn't save it, since that was. Never used by Japan itself for itself, and if it refers to a Japanese China, it also contradicts how it's the Qing, Ming, Yuan, etc, but then it's Yamato (Da He, Da = Great.) (And I laid out how it's just a bad name to use in detail earlier.)
So Yamato just. Shouldn't exist as a name.

Otherwise, agreed.
Since I have hyperfixated on the Timurids before, the Timurids calling themselves Turan was indeed true, though Timurid literature actually called them Iran-o-Turan (aka, Iran and Turan). The name for Transoxiana in Persian also was sometimes used, but I'd prefer the former.
 
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Yeah, though in the case of Yamato, this doesn't save it, since that was. Never used by Japan itself for itself, and if it refers to a Japanese China, it also contradicts how it's the Qing, Ming, Yuan, etc, but then it's Yamato (Da He, Da = Great.) (And I laid out how it's just a bad name to use in detail earlier.)
So Yamato just. Shouldn't exist as a name.

Otherwise, agreed.
Since I have hyperfixated on the Timurids before, the Timurids calling themselves Turan was indeed true, though Timurid literature actually called them Iran-o-Turan (aka, Iran and Turan). The name for Transoxiana in Persian also was sometimes used, but I'd prefer the former.
Thanks for that! So the formable nation should just be Japan/Nippon depending on the localization?
 
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I’m a little surprised not to see more German regional formables. Many from, say, EU4 like Swabia and Franconia make sense to bypass but others like Hannover will play important roles in PC’s time frame.
 
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Thanks for that! So the formable nation should just be Japan/Nippon depending on the localization?
Pretty much, yeah, Yamato wasn't really used by Japan itself in timeframe for itself or its' people until the Meiji Revolution introduced western ideas of ethnicity and identity. China did use it to an extent, but unless you're part of the large Chinese fanbase, I'm not sure that it is relevant.
 
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Thanks for that! So the formable nation should just be Japan/Nippon depending on the localization?
Yeah, though in the case of Yamato, this doesn't save it, since that was. Never used by Japan itself for itself, and if it refers to a Japanese China, it also contradicts how it's the Qing, Ming, Yuan, etc, but then it's Yamato (Da He, Da = Great.) (And I laid out how it's just a bad name to use in detail earlier.)
So Yamato just. Shouldn't exist as a name.

Otherwise, agreed.
Since I have hyperfixated on the Timurids before, the Timurids calling themselves Turan was indeed true, though Timurid literature actually called them Iran-o-Turan (aka, Iran and Turan). The name for Transoxiana in Persian also was sometimes used, but I'd prefer the former.
Yamato, It was once used and recorded in the history books of China in the third century as a country called Yematai. You can see the similarity in pronunciation between these two.
But during the Tang Dynasty, the Japanese requested the current name from Wu Zetian. So after the 7th century, Yamato could no longer be used.
 
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Pretty much, yeah, Yamato wasn't really used by Japan itself in timeframe for itself or its' people until the Meiji Revolution introduced western ideas of ethnicity and identity. China did use it to an extent, but unless you're part of the large Chinese fanbase, I'm not sure that it is relevant.
I can be sure that besides me, other Chinese fans are not active.(Some meaningless emojis)
The Power of Bears.jpg
 
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Yamato, It was once used and recorded in the history books of China in the third century as a country called Yematai. You can see the similarity in pronunciation between these two.
But during the Tang Dynasty, the Japanese requested the current name from Wu Zetian. So after the 7th century, Yamato could no longer be used.
Precisely, this is what I was getting at earlier with the whole Dwarf bit and such. Thanks for elaborating, though, geninuely.
 
I can be sure that besides me, other Chinese fans are not active.(Some meaningless emojis)View attachment 1253761
PFFFF
Fair enough, I'm mostly thinking of EU4, tbf, where there is a large Chinese fanbase who infamously memed the Yellow River flood events and all.
 
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