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Tinto Talks #50 - 12th February 2025

Hey everyone, and welcome back. Johan is busy today (allegedly) so instead I will walk you through this Tinto Talks on Formable Countries in our little project called Caesar. It’s a fairly tight feature so this should be nice and quick.



What are Formable Countries?

Basically, formable countries are new tags that you can switch to. Typically they represent historical unions and conquests, but some represent aspirations that never materialised.

Generally speaking, the vision behind Formables is to offer roleplaying and historical immersion, and support player fantasies, rather than modifier stacking. They will change your country name, national flag, and map color. So while you may unlock some content such as advances or other minor unique content, the tag change is often the goal in itself.

Screenshot 2025-02-12 113332.png
Screenshot 2025-02-12 112612.png

Spain gets some unique advances in the later ages, but not all do.

Rather than your country changing automatically every age, you achieve it by completing certain objectives. Usually, you'll need to control a certain percentage of a predefined set of locations, for example Scandinavia needs 75% of the locations in the Scandinavia region.

There’s typically additional requirements as well such as your Primary Culture belonging to a certain Culture Group. Forming Spain also requires you and all the independent countries in Iberia to be Christian, as it is thematically closely tied to the completion of the Reconquista. Iberian Muslims have the reverse rules for forming Al-Andalus.

Some are directly tied to actions in International Organizations, like the Holy Roman Empire or the Ilkhanate.

Formables also have a Tier that represents their natural order of precedence. You can only form countries that are the same or higher tier than you. For example, England (Tier 2) can form Great Britain (Tier 3) but Great Britain can’t form England. The AI will only form countries that are a higher tier.


Screenshot 2025-02-12 124554.png

Country formation is just a click away.


There are 3 settings to the relevant game rule.
  1. Only Historical Formable Countries
    1. Only countries that actually formed in the game’s time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Spain and Great Britain
  2. Allow Plausible Formable Countries(Default)
    1. Countries that could plausible have formed, or formed just after the time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Germany and Italy
  3. Allow Ahistorical Formable Countries
    1. Aspirational or fantasy countries can be formed. Examples include
      1. North Sea Empire (which is a Tier IV) if you control Britain and Scandinavia
      2. Europa (Tier V)



Screenshot 2025-02-12 121247.png

Some countries have different flags depending on the exact manner in which they are formed. For example this variant of the Union Jack with a dominant saltire when you start as Scotland.


1739361227786.png

And some formables come with little treats to sweeten the deal.


Screenshot 2025-02-12 123920.png

The Teutonic Order has a long way to go before they can become Prussia…


Screenshot 2025-02-12 124144.png

But it might be worth it…


Screenshot 2025-02-12 121702.png

Some exist to fulfil common player fantasies, but only appear if the player chooses in the Game Rules to have the less historical ones.



This is our current list of formable countries, let us know which ones you would like us add!

FormableTierNote
Europa5Ahistorical
Rome4Ahistorical
Hindustan4Plausible
Holy Roman Empire4Plausible
Byzantium4
Ilkhanate4
Iran4
Mongolia4
Mughals4
Rûm4
Russia4
United States4
Celtica3Ahistorical
Latin Empire3Ahistorical
North Sea3Ahistorical
Al-Andalus3Plausible
Arabia3Plausible
Canada3Plausible
Egypt3Plausible
Germany3Plausible
Italy3Plausible
Malaya3Plausible
Ruthenia3Plausible
Scandinavia3Plausible
Shan3Plausible
Banten3
Bengal3
Deccan3
Delhi3
Ethiopia3
Great Britain3
Gujurat3
Hausa3
Inca3
Kongo3
Manchu3
Maratha3
Mexico3
Poland-Lithuania3
Punjab3
Rajput3
Siam3
Sokoto3
Spain3
Timurids3
Two Sicilies3
Yamato3
Africa2Ahistorical
Carthage2Ahistorical
Hen Ogledd2Ahistorical
Aotearoa2Plausible
Greece2Plausible
Jerusalem2Plausible
Livonia2Plausible
Maya2Plausible
Albania2
Armenia2
Austria2
Ayutthaya2
Bahamis2
England2
Georgia2
Golden Horde2
Holstein2
Ireland2
Navarre2
Nepal2
Netherlands2
Poland2
Prussia2
Scotland2
Serbia2
Sweden2
Switzerland2
Tibet2
Wales2
Connacht1Plausible
Ulster1Plausible
Aïr1
Bavaria1
Beja1
Mazovia1
Mecklenburg1
Mossi1
Nassau1
Northumbria1
Pomerania1
Sardinia1
Saxony1
Silesia1


That's it for today's dev diary. Thanks for reading, and we'll see you next time, where we will talk about Subject Types, and an interesting part of the Castilian player fantasy…
 
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having both two sicilies and italy at the same tier is very weird considering two sicilies had a big chance to for italy historically, i'd push down two sicilies to tier2, and maybe add the other "minor italian formables" in the same tier (tuscany, sardinia piedmont, so on).

i feel like you can add a lot more to the formables, so many that are missing from eu4, including many very nice roleplaying one, the ones i am more suprised to not see are the religious ones (kingdom of god, caliphate, ....)
 
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Hey everyone, and welcome back. Johan is busy today (allegedly) so instead I will walk you through this Tinto Talks on Formable Countries in our little project called Caesar. It’s a fairly tight feature so this should be nice and quick.



What are Formable Countries?

Basically, formable countries are new tags that you can switch to. Typically they represent historical unions and conquests, but some represent aspirations that never materialised.

Generally speaking, the vision behind Formables is to offer roleplaying and historical immersion, and support player fantasies, rather than modifier stacking. They will change your country name, national flag, and map color. So while you may unlock some content such as advances or other minor unique content, the tag change is often the goal in itself.

View attachment 1253582View attachment 1253583
Spain gets some unique advances in the later ages, but not all do.

Rather than your country changing automatically every age, you achieve it by completing certain objectives. Usually, you'll need to control a certain percentage of a predefined set of locations, for example Scandinavia needs 75% of the locations in the Scandinavia region.

There’s typically additional requirements as well such as your Primary Culture belonging to a certain Culture Group. Forming Spain also requires you and all the independent countries in Iberia to be Christian, as it is thematically closely tied to the completion of the Reconquista. Iberian Muslims have the reverse rules for forming Al-Andalus.

Some are directly tied to actions in International Organizations, like the Holy Roman Empire or the Ilkhanate.

Formables also have a Tier that represents their natural order of precedence. You can only form countries that are the same or higher tier than you. For example, England (Tier 2) can form Great Britain (Tier 3) but Great Britain can’t form England. The AI will only form countries that are a higher tier.


View attachment 1253586
Country formation is just a click away.


There are 3 settings to the relevant game rule.
  1. Only Historical Formable Countries
    1. Only countries that actually formed in the game’s time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Spain and Great Britain
  2. Allow Plausible Formable Countries(Default)
    1. Countries that could plausible have formed, or formed just after the time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Germany and Italy
  3. Allow Ahistorical Formable Countries
    1. Aspirational or fantasy countries can be formed. Examples include
      1. North Sea Empire (which is a Tier IV) if you control Britain and Scandinavia
      2. Europa (Tier V)



View attachment 1253589
Some countries have different flags depending on the exact manner in which they are formed. For example this variant of the Union Jack with a dominant saltire when you start as Scotland.


View attachment 1253591
And some formables come with little treats to sweeten the deal.


View attachment 1253592
The Teutonic Order has a long way to go before they can become Prussia…


View attachment 1253593
But it might be worth it…


View attachment 1253594
Some exist to fulfil common player fantasies, but only appear if the player chooses in the Game Rules to have the less historical ones.



This is our current list of formable countries, let us know which ones you would like us add!

FormableTierNote
Europa5Ahistorical
Rome4Ahistorical
Hindustan4Plausible
Holy Roman Empire4Plausible
Byzantium4
Ilkhanate4
Iran4
Mongolia4
Mughals4
Rûm4
Russia4
United States4
Celtica3Ahistorical
Latin Empire3Ahistorical
North Sea3Ahistorical
Al-Andalus3Plausible
Arabia3Plausible
Canada3Plausible
Egypt3Plausible
Germany3Plausible
Italy3Plausible
Malaya3Plausible
Ruthenia3Plausible
Scandinavia3Plausible
Shan3Plausible
Banten3
Bengal3
Deccan3
Delhi3
Ethiopia3
Great Britain3
Gujurat3
Hausa3
Inca3
Kongo3
Manchu3
Maratha3
Mexico3
Poland-Lithuania3
Punjab3
Rajput3
Siam3
Sokoto3
Spain3
Timurids3
Two Sicilies3
Yamato3
Africa2Ahistorical
Carthage2Ahistorical
Hen Ogledd2Ahistorical
Aotearoa2Plausible
Greece2Plausible
Jerusalem2Plausible
Livonia2Plausible
Maya2Plausible
Albania2
Armenia2
Austria2
Ayutthaya2
Bahamis2
England2
Georgia2
Golden Horde2
Holstein2
Ireland2
Navarre2
Nepal2
Netherlands2
Poland2
Prussia2
Scotland2
Serbia2
Sweden2
Switzerland2
Tibet2
Wales2
Connacht1Plausible
Ulster1Plausible
Aïr1
Bavaria1
Beja1
Mazovia1
Mecklenburg1
Mossi1
Nassau1
Northumbria1
Pomerania1
Sardinia1
Saxony1
Silesia1


That's it for today's dev diary. Thanks for reading, and we'll see you next time, where we will talk about Subject Types, and an interesting part of the Castilian player fantasy…
Any plans for eventually (maybe for a dlc or update focusing on the HRE) to make more IO within the HRE like the Kingdom of Germany and Italy? This would more accurately represent the HRE as many German institutions did not apply to the Italian ones.
 
PFFFF
Fair enough, I'm mostly thinking of EU4, tbf, where there is a large Chinese fanbase who infamously memed the Yellow River flood events and all.
This event originated from the ideological change of the paradox game player forum on the Chinese Internet. Before the Yellow River flood event, a large number of Chinese fans unconditionally supported the paradox. Any player who wanted to oppose the rough imitation of the paradox to China would be pushed aside and attacked by them. Until version 1.35, catastrophic Yellow River floods, Yangtze River floods, and Shaanxi earthquakes occurred. Completely igniting the anger of Chinese fans, the community administrators and fan groups who unconditionally supported the paradox were overthrown and excluded.
Then, for the first time, Chinese fans united to express their opinions. So a large number of Chinese people poured into the forum.
But I'm not that batch, I'm the second batch. Because I think EU4 is too heavy to reverse and cannot be modified. So I am here on this forum to provide suggestions for EU5 in China.
 
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Perhaps, but I still find it a bit strange because the rebel army will form a small kingdom and then seize the so-called 'mandate of heaven'
We still don't know how the leadership of the Chinese Empire will work, but hopefully you need to be a bit more than "a small kingdom". Hopefully, it also won't be a trap choice like it is in EU4, which actually makes the Emperor of China capable of continuing the unification.
 
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a couple suggestions

Romania/Dacia
Western Roman Empire(WRE ERE co-op)
Arles
Aquitainia
Franconia
Swabia
Lower Lorraine
Upper Lorraine
Lotharingia
Francia/Frankish Empire
Illyria/Yugoslavia
Dalmatia
Gran Colombia
Great Moravia
V.O.C.
Vinland
Brazil
Macedon/Macedonian Empire
Jan Mayan(tier 5 tag obiously)
Rohan

Dietsland(alt name for lower franconian Germany)
i would like the flag of the Burgundian Netherlands to be avaliable as an option for the Netherlands
 
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This event originated from the ideological change of the paradox game player forum on the Chinese Internet. Before the Yellow River flood event, a large number of Chinese fans unconditionally supported the paradox. Any player who wanted to oppose the rough imitation of the paradox to China would be pushed aside and attacked by them. Until version 1.35, catastrophic Yellow River floods, Yangtze River floods, and Shaanxi earthquakes occurred. Completely igniting the anger of Chinese fans, the community administrators and fan groups who unconditionally supported the paradox were overthrown and excluded.
Then, for the first time, Chinese fans united to express their opinions. So a large number of Chinese people poured into the forum.
But I'm not that batch, I'm the second batch. Because I think EU4 is too heavy to reverse and cannot be modified. So I am here on this forum to provide suggestions for EU5 in China.
Interesting elaboration, thanks.
 
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Me after the disaster that was Leviathan.
I guess you're saying that Leviathan DLC is a disaster.
To be precise, the anger of Chinese players began to accumulate from the 1.25 Damo DLC. Until the outbreak of version 1.35.
 
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I like the mega continental formables for when you're in a very late world conquest game. Happy to see Europa and Africa.

I'd like to see Asia, Oceania, and North/South America followed by generic America or New World for controlling the whole thing.
Also I always wanted a final formable for a world conquest. Just a button at the end you can press that solidifies that you did get everything. "Terra" or "Earth". It would make checking if you completed your world conquest easier too.

I know these are not common and many people won't care to change tags at that point but it's something that makes me feel happy for fulfilling such lofty goals.
 
We thought about that kind of thing, using development or population to give locations a score towards country formables.

It becomes more difficult for players to understand what they need to do to achieve the goal though, and also it could lead to a weird situation where the player makes Denmark super developed and can then claim "Scandinavia" without even setting foot in Norway or Sweden.
You could combine the two to make it more logical. 75% of development and 50% of provinces.
 
Really hope the Greek formable isn't like this, the modern day borders:
1739392060997.png

Britannica

But instead like this, the borders of the 1st Hellenic Republic (1830):
1739392618664.png

Wikipedia

Or this, the borders of the Kingdom of Greece (1832):
1739393214687.png

Wikipedia

Also, Greece is a plausible formable? Does this mean no 1837 end date? If so, then ahistorical borders might be interesting since we wouldn't be considering the circumstances that resulted in a small, Peloponnesian Peninsula-centered Greece. We could have an Epirote Greece, a Macedonian Greece, a Thessalian Greece, an Ionian Greece, a Thracian Greece, maybe even a Pontic Greece? It might be better if it didn't require certain territory at all. Maybe it should need a percentage of Greek cultural land to be controlled? That might result in weird borders though.

Here are my proposed formables that could form the Greece formable:
  • Thrace
  • Thessaly
  • Sparta
  • Ionia
  • Bythnia
  • Lydia
  • Lycia
  • Pontus--not sure how this would even come about but the idea it neat
Additional formables that would be cool are:
  • Trebizond--for the proposed Pontus or existing Theodoro/Gothia
  • Nicaea
 
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Yeah, Illyria was commonly-used term for the Serbo-Croat lands by Slavic and non-Slavic intellectuals alike during the period of Project Caesar, thanks to Reneissance reviving it as a geographical term. Croatians, Bosnians and Serbians were frequently referred to collectively as Illyrians or Illyro-Slavs due to them living in the lands of the old Illyrians. Thanks to Illyrian Armorials, there were even nations which could be used as a base for "forming" Illyria, even if they're not recognized as accurate by modern historians. Srdjan Rudić's "The Ideology of the Illyrian Armorial" covers this topic in detail.

In the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, Renaissance and Renaissance humanism in the literature led to a revived interest in history and in the study of the distribution and origin of peoples. Among the Slavic environments in Ragusa and Dalmatian coast, this gave rise to theories about Illyria and the Slavs as a once glorious people who had inhabited vast territories, akin to pan-Romanism of Italian humanists and pan-Germanism of German humanists. The Slavic humanists believed that language in a land always remains the same, with minor changes, and they therefore declared as Slavs not only the Illyrians and many other people but also the Roman emperors born on their side of the Adriatic. Juraj Šižgorić went so far as to declare Philip and Alexander of Macedon, Aristotle, 21 Roman emperors and 9 Popes to have been Slavs.

A considerable role in spreading these ideas was played by Ptolemy’s Atlas (for a long time the only geographic manual), which resulted in people living in territories of long-vanished peoples being called by their names: just as France was called Gaul and Hungarians came to be called Pannonians, the Slav-inhabited areas of the Balkan Peninsula were dubbed Illyria and Macedonia. Many intellectuals of the time called the Balkan Slavs Illyrians: Francesco Serdonati refers to rulers of Serbia, Bosnia and Croatia as Illyrians; Sabellicus' and Giovanni Musachi's works refer to Bosnia and Illyria as synonymous; Mavro Orbin claimed that the grave of a Bosnian Ban's sister described her as an Illyrian; Pope Pius II believed that Illyrians lived to the west and north of the Albanians; and Julije Balović refers to the modern Serbo-Croatian language as "Slavo-Illirico". Protestant refugees in 1560s even sought to lay the foundations of an "Illyrian" language understandable in all South-Slavic lands.

This idea of Slavic unity championed by this movement arose with the approval of the Catholic Church, which together with Austria and the Spanish court in Naples sought to stir up an uprising of the Balkan Christians against the Ottoman Empire. As such, the Church encouraged the appearance of historical constructions whose purpose was to prove an identity between Slavs and ancient Illyrians, the Slavic origin of illustrious figures of the past and the grandeur of a former Slavic state. This atmosphere is best exemplified by the Illyrian Armorials, a compilation of real and fictional South Slavic coat of arms which expressed the notion of a so-called "Illyrian Empire", a fictitious realm ruled by the Nemanjić dynasty (in essence, making Illyria analogous to the Serbian Empire). The armorial was the personal project of Petar Ohmučević, a Ragusan admiral in the Spanish navy, with the purpose of confirming his "Illyrian" nobility in order to enter Spanish chivalric orders. While the armorials can be considered fraudulent, they wound up having immense influence: it allowed Christians of the Balkans to show foreigners that they too had once had a large and glorious empire, and that their representatives were not simple peasants and commoners but descendants of the once illustrious “Illyrian” nobility.

So with all this in mind, Illyria would make sense as a period-appropriate alt-history formable for the South Slavic nations (essentially as a pre-modern Yugoslavia), as long as its historical context is made perfectly clear: had any of the South Slavic states remained independent and managed to expand, their rulers may have used the Illyrian Armories or the Slavic humanists' theories about the South Slavs' Illyrian heritage to resurrect the ancient geographical term as a catch-all term for the Serbo-Croat people (and potentially to justify the conquest of new lands).
View attachment 1253679
Picture of the Illyrian Empire's coat of arms, according to the Illyrian Armorials
The coat of arms you posted was created during the Illyrian revival in the 19th century. It would be more accurate to use this Illyrian coat of arms, which was used from the 15th century until the 18th century by Croats.
Screenshot_20250212_220957_Brave.jpg

Dictionarium quinque nobilissimarum Europae linguarum, latinae, italicae, germanicae, dalmaticae et ungaricae (1595.) by Faust Vrančić( Croat)
Institutionum linguae illyricae libri duo published in 1604. by Bartol Kašić (Croat),
In both dictionaries, the Croatian language is translated as Illyrian and/or Dalmatian. Since all South Slavic languages (Slovenian, Croatian, Serbian ...) are linguistically the same language group it would be good if there would be possible to create a new country: Illyria
 
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Gothic was heavily hellenized during this period and on its way to extinction, there were some reports of people allegedly singing in a language understandable to germans in crimea but idk if it has been conclusively identified as gothic.
The Crimean Gothic elite spoke Greek, yes. However, let's take a look at the Finnish culture. It does not feature Swedish as the primary language, despite it being spoken by the elites. If the Finns speak Finnish, the Goths should speak Gothic.

(Crimean) Gothic in 1337, whether it is truly East Germanic or some weird conglomeration of West Germanic settlers adapting to the customs of the native Greuthungi Goths who'd settled the area in the 4th century, is still a Germanic language, be it West or East. They called themselves Goths regardless of linguistic sub-family.

In 1337, the fate of the Crimean Goths is yet to be decided. It'd persist as a culture & language for almost half a millennia after the game start. It's only several hundred years after this that you could argue that they were going extinct. However, that's several hundred years of gameplay that can change everything.

In a game where we can select any nation to play as, it'd make little sense to exclude this fact simply because they died off at the tail end of the timeline of the game. If we're able to play as them, we should not be railroaded to be hellenized or tatar-ized and die off simply because that's what historically happened, in a game all about player agency and the choices we make. Sure, we should be able to change over time, but we should not be forced to change over time.
 
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I feel like some more New World formables are in order, at very least large ones, like Brazil, or smaller ones that gained independence relatively early on, like Haiti.

There is also a distinct lack of Belgium.

Finally, on the plausible to ahistorical side, maybe an Acadia formable for if the Canadian Maritimes/Maine were colonized by a Francophone country.
 
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Hello, @SaintDaveUK, @Johan, and others!

Since You asked for suggestions...
Here is a table that contains formable tags with proposed tiers/historicity (assuming the game ends around 1820s) from Europa Universalis 4, that weren't mentioned in this Tinto Talks and could be featured in 'Project Caesar':

NameTierHistoricityAlternative name(s)DetailsMy notes
Aksum3AhistoricalAxum
Algiers2HistoricalAlgeria
Angevin Kingdom3PlausibleEngland-France
Bharat4Plausible
Bukhara2Historical
Bulgaria2HistoricalReformable
Croatia2HistoricalReformable
Dai Viet2HistoricalReformable
Dalmatia1Historical
Denmark2HistoricalReformable
France2HistoricalReformable
Franconia1Plausible
Hanover2Historical
Hawai'i1Historical
Hungary2HistoricalReformable
Iceland1Plausible
Israel2Plausible
Japan3HistoricalReformable
Kitara3Ahistorical
Kurland2Historical
Lan Xang2Historical
Lanfang1Historical
Lotharingia2Plausible
Lübeck1HistoricalReformableHansa is Extraterritorial, so it's obsolete?
Macina2HistoricalMassina
Mali3HistoricalReformable
Mamluks3HistoricalReformable
Morocco2HistoricalReformable
Nagpur2Historical
Nepal2Historical
Nubia2Ahistorical
Orissa2HistoricalOdisha
Qing4Historical
Romania2Plausible
Rozwi Empire2HistoricalRozvi
Sardinia-Piedmont2Historical
Somalia2Plausible
Swabia1Plausible
Tripoli2HistoricalReformable
Tunis2HistoricalReformable
Tuscany2Historical
Viti1Plausible
Westphalia1Historical
Yemen2HistoricalReformable
Yuan4HistoricalReformable
Zimbabwe3HistoricalReformable
Alaska2PlausibleFormer Colonial Nation
Australia3PlausibleFormer Colonial Nation
Brazil3HistoricalFormer Colonial Nation
California2PlausibleFormer Colonial Nation
Cascadia1PlausibleFormer Colonial Nation
Chile2HistoricalFormer Colonial Nation
Colombia3HistoricalFormer Colonial Nation
Cuba1PlausibleFormer Colonial Nation
Florida1PlausibleFormer Colonial Nation
Haiti1HistoricalFormer Colonial Nation
Illinois1PlausibleFormer Colonial Nation
La Plata2HistoricalArgentinaFormer Colonial Nation
Louisiana2PlausibleFormer Colonial Nation
Paraguay1HistoricalFormer Colonial Nation
Peru2HistoricalFormer Colonial Nation
Quebec2PlausibleFormer Colonial Nation
Sonora2PlausibleFormer Colonial Nation
Texas2PlausibleFormer Colonial Nation
United Central America2HistoricalFormer Colonial Nation
Venezuela2PlausibleFormer Colonial Nation
Vermont1PlausibleFormer Colonial Nation
West Indies2PlausibleFormer Colonial Nation
Zealandia2PlausibleFormer Colonial Nation
Creek2HistoricalNative Federation
Huron2HistoricalNative Federation
Illiniwek2HistoricalNative Federation
Iroquois2HistoricalNative Federation
Potawatomi2HistoricalNative Federation
Shawnee2HistoricalNative Federation
Sioux2HistoricalNative Federation

Right now I think of some tags that didn't make it EU4, but can be in Project Caesar, but I'll probably post it in a separate table below.
If I forgot something or made a mistake, feel free to correct!
EDIT 1: Changed Native Federations (Plausible --> Historical) and made a few minor adjustments.
 
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