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Tinto Talks #50 - 12th February 2025

Hey everyone, and welcome back. Johan is busy today (allegedly) so instead I will walk you through this Tinto Talks on Formable Countries in our little project called Caesar. It’s a fairly tight feature so this should be nice and quick.



What are Formable Countries?

Basically, formable countries are new tags that you can switch to. Typically they represent historical unions and conquests, but some represent aspirations that never materialised.

Generally speaking, the vision behind Formables is to offer roleplaying and historical immersion, and support player fantasies, rather than modifier stacking. They will change your country name, national flag, and map color. So while you may unlock some content such as advances or other minor unique content, the tag change is often the goal in itself.

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Spain gets some unique advances in the later ages, but not all do.

Rather than your country changing automatically every age, you achieve it by completing certain objectives. Usually, you'll need to control a certain percentage of a predefined set of locations, for example Scandinavia needs 75% of the locations in the Scandinavia region.

There’s typically additional requirements as well such as your Primary Culture belonging to a certain Culture Group. Forming Spain also requires you and all the independent countries in Iberia to be Christian, as it is thematically closely tied to the completion of the Reconquista. Iberian Muslims have the reverse rules for forming Al-Andalus.

Some are directly tied to actions in International Organizations, like the Holy Roman Empire or the Ilkhanate.

Formables also have a Tier that represents their natural order of precedence. You can only form countries that are the same or higher tier than you. For example, England (Tier 2) can form Great Britain (Tier 3) but Great Britain can’t form England. The AI will only form countries that are a higher tier.


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Country formation is just a click away.


There are 3 settings to the relevant game rule.
  1. Only Historical Formable Countries
    1. Only countries that actually formed in the game’s time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Spain and Great Britain
  2. Allow Plausible Formable Countries(Default)
    1. Countries that could plausible have formed, or formed just after the time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Germany and Italy
  3. Allow Ahistorical Formable Countries
    1. Aspirational or fantasy countries can be formed. Examples include
      1. North Sea Empire (which is a Tier IV) if you control Britain and Scandinavia
      2. Europa (Tier V)



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Some countries have different flags depending on the exact manner in which they are formed. For example this variant of the Union Jack with a dominant saltire when you start as Scotland.


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And some formables come with little treats to sweeten the deal.


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The Teutonic Order has a long way to go before they can become Prussia…


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But it might be worth it…


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Some exist to fulfil common player fantasies, but only appear if the player chooses in the Game Rules to have the less historical ones.



This is our current list of formable countries, let us know which ones you would like us add!

FormableTierNote
Europa5Ahistorical
Rome4Ahistorical
Hindustan4Plausible
Holy Roman Empire4Plausible
Byzantium4
Ilkhanate4
Iran4
Mongolia4
Mughals4
Rûm4
Russia4
United States4
Celtica3Ahistorical
Latin Empire3Ahistorical
North Sea3Ahistorical
Al-Andalus3Plausible
Arabia3Plausible
Canada3Plausible
Egypt3Plausible
Germany3Plausible
Italy3Plausible
Malaya3Plausible
Ruthenia3Plausible
Scandinavia3Plausible
Shan3Plausible
Banten3
Bengal3
Deccan3
Delhi3
Ethiopia3
Great Britain3
Gujurat3
Hausa3
Inca3
Kongo3
Manchu3
Maratha3
Mexico3
Poland-Lithuania3
Punjab3
Rajput3
Siam3
Sokoto3
Spain3
Timurids3
Two Sicilies3
Yamato3
Africa2Ahistorical
Carthage2Ahistorical
Hen Ogledd2Ahistorical
Aotearoa2Plausible
Greece2Plausible
Jerusalem2Plausible
Livonia2Plausible
Maya2Plausible
Albania2
Armenia2
Austria2
Ayutthaya2
Bahamis2
England2
Georgia2
Golden Horde2
Holstein2
Ireland2
Navarre2
Nepal2
Netherlands2
Poland2
Prussia2
Scotland2
Serbia2
Sweden2
Switzerland2
Tibet2
Wales2
Connacht1Plausible
Ulster1Plausible
Aïr1
Bavaria1
Beja1
Mazovia1
Mecklenburg1
Mossi1
Nassau1
Northumbria1
Pomerania1
Sardinia1
Saxony1
Silesia1


That's it for today's dev diary. Thanks for reading, and we'll see you next time, where we will talk about Subject Types, and an interesting part of the Castilian player fantasy…
 
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Duchy Of Swabia

Should be a tier 1 formable

Basically all the Stem Duchies should be fromables but Swabia especially since it was the center of HRE power for so long and had only been dismantled 20 years before the game start date.
 
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I have a few ideas for Indian formables.
My first problem is the Mughals tag. It doesn't make sense to be Tier 4 alongside Hindustan, even though after the conquest of most of North India was complete, they proclaimed themselves to be the Empire of Hindustan. So, Mughals should probably be a Tier 3 tag.
There also have to be more regional tags in India all of which have historical examples, such as Tamilakam (Carnatic Sultanate 1692-1855) (Tier 3), Bihar (Sur Empire 1540-1555) (Tier 3), Awadh (Jaunpur Sultanate 1394-1479, Awadh State 1732-1856) (Tier 3), Gujarat (Gujarat Sultanate 1394-1573) (Tier 3), Malwa (Malwa Sultanate 1401-1562) (Tier 3), Afghanistan (Durrani Empire 1747-1823).
The Marathas should be formable by Konkani culture as well.
When the Bahmanis Sultanate is formed by event it should use the Deccan tag, because it was known as the Deccan Sultanate, and Bahmanis was the dynastic name. The only reason I say this is because it would make little to no sense for the Bahmanis to claim the title of Deccan Sultanate, considering they pretty much already are it at their formation. Also, it would not affect their naming because they will just use the dynastic name anyway.
I also think that certain formables should be rolled back if certain requirements are no longer met, or possibly the formable being usurped. For example, after the Mughals lost everything except the area around Delhi, they still claimed the title of Empire of Hindustan, but they had de facto lost it, and a possible successor should not have to conquer them to form Hindustan (of course they still need to meet all the requirements).
Some plausible formables that did not exist historically, but could: Lanka (Tier 2), Kerala (can't think of a good name) (Tier 2, so it can form Tamilakam).
More reformables: Sindh, Orissa, Kashmir (Idk why they are not already).
 
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I’d like to see some more formibals in the Americas such as being able to revive the Wari or Tiwanaku. Also change the name of the Inca Empire to Tawantinsuyu.
 
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Hello, @SaintDaveUK, @Johan, and others!

Since You asked for suggestions...
Here is a table that contains formable tags with proposed tiers/historicity (assuming the game ends around 1820s) from Europa Universalis 4, that weren't mentioned in this Tinto Talks and could be featured in 'Project Caesar':

NameTierHistoricityAlternative name(s)DetailsMy notes
Aksum3AhistoricalAxum
Algiers2HistoricalAlgeria
Angevin Kingdom3PlausibleEngland-France
Bharat4Plausible
Bukhara2Historical
Bulgaria2HistoricalReformable
Croatia2HistoricalReformable
Dai Viet2HistoricalReformable
Dalmatia1Historical
Denmark2HistoricalReformable
France2HistoricalReformable
Franconia1Plausible
Hanover2Historical
Hawai'i1Historical
Hungary2HistoricalReformable
Iceland1Plausible
Israel2Plausible
Japan3HistoricalReformable
Kitara3Ahistorical
Kurland2Historical
Lan Xang2Historical
Lanfang1Historical
Lotharingia2Plausible
Lübeck1HistoricalReformableHansa is Extraterritorial, so it's obsolete?
Macina2HistoricalMassina
Mali3HistoricalReformable
Mamluks3HistoricalReformable
Morocco2HistoricalReformable
Nagpur2Historical
Nepal2Historical
Nubia2Ahistorical
Orissa2HistoricalOdisha
Qing4Historical
Romania2Plausible
Rozwi Empire2HistoricalRozvi
Sardinia-Piedmont2Historical
Somalia2Plausible
Swabia1Plausible
Tripoli2HistoricalReformable
Tunis2Historical
Tuscany2Historical
Viti1Plausible
Westphalia1Historical
Yemen2HistoricalReformable
Yuan4HistoricalReformable
Zimbabwe3HistoricalReformable
Alaska2PlausibleFormer Colonial Nation
Australia3PlausibleFormer Colonial Nation
Brazil3PlausibleFormer Colonial Nation
California2PlausibleFormer Colonial Nation
Cascadia1PlausibleFormer Colonial Nation
Chile2HistoricalFormer Colonial Nation
Colombia3HistoricalFormer Colonial Nation
Cuba1PlausibleFormer Colonial Nation
Florida1PlausibleFormer Colonial Nation
Haiti1PlausibleFormer Colonial Nation
Illinois1PlausibleFormer Colonial Nation
La Plata2HistoricalArgentinaFormer Colonial Nation
Louisiana2PlausibleFormer Colonial Nation
Paraguay1HistoricalFormer Colonial Nation
Peru2HistoricalFormer Colonial Nation
Quebec2PlausibleFormer Colonial Nation
Sonora2PlausibleFormer Colonial Nation
Texas2PlausibleFormer Colonial Nation
United Central America2HistoricalFormer Colonial Nation
Venezuela2PlausibleFormer Colonial Nation
Vermont1PlausibleFormer Colonial Nation
West Indies2PlausibleFormer Colonial Nation
Zealandia2PlausibleFormer Colonial Nation
Creek2PlausibleNative Federation
Huron2PlausibleNative Federation
Illiniwek2PlausibleNative Federation
Iroquois2PlausibleNative Federation
Potawatomi2PlausibleNative Federation
Shawnee2PlausibleNative Federation
Sioux2PlausibleNative Federation

Right now I think of some tags that didn't make it EU4, but can be in Project Caesar, but I'll probably post it in a separate table below.
If I forgot something or made a mistake, feel free to correct!
Only issue I see is that all of the Native federations listed would be historical, not just plausible
 
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That is a very, very generous helping of unique formables :eek:

The Latin Empire still exists nominally. The Latin Empress Catherine II (half-sister to King Philippe VI of France) still lives in 1337, but the tag itself lost all of their lands less than 100 years ago. Will there be events to help Catherine reform it somehow, as she has no land to her name? Or will this be ignored and whomever can form it if they meet the reqs?

And is Africa the province of Africa, that being the Maghreb, or the entire continent of Africa? If the former, then it is time to restore the Kingdom of the Vandals & Alans in Africa!

P.S. Can we get a secret Kingdom of the Visigoths if by miracle Theodoro manages to conquer & convert all of Iberia to Gothic, pretty please? I mean it was more recent than both Rome & Carthage :p

Also, also, is Gothic a Germanic language yet? The last time we saw languages in the region it was grouped into the same group as Greek which makes no sense.

Technically, the Latin Empire still did exist on the map, through its vassals the Principality of Achaia, the Duchy of Athens, and so on. It just didn't have any land uniquely its own. And to complicate things more, in 1337, Catherine was the Dowager Princess of Achaia, with her (underage) son Robert as the ruling prince (with Catherine as regent). Robert would become Latin Emperor as well upon his mother's death in 1446, combining the two titles.
 
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This will probably be lost since I am a day late on this DD, but why is Greece in the plausible formables rather than the historical formables?

Greece IRL was formed in 1821 (well, officially recognized in 1829, but declared independence as Greece in 1821) - which is at the very end, but within, the timeframe of the game.

In addition, similar revolts to form "Greece" in some form or another happened a lot in the 17th and 18th centuries. For example, the Orlov revolt instigated by Russia in 1770.
 
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Others have already commented about this, but the current roster of Indian formable is rather poor. The Bahmanis were a dynasty and shouldn't be formable by anyone who isn't a member of the dynasty, Rajput is a caste name (Rajasthan or Rajputana would work better), and the Mughals as a formable is also weird (as others have elaborated on).

Apart from that, it would be nice to see a Garhwal formable (given that Garhwal should be a plethora of rival kingdoms at game start, not united as its currently depicted).
 
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Amazing! Some suggestions for potential formable nations in the region of India:

1. Dravida (tier 3) - If a South Indian nation unifies the dravidian lands, accepts all atleast 80% of the population's cultures and passes certain reforms and reaches a certain age (possibly the age of absolutism).

2. Bharata/Bharatvarsha (Tier 4) - Hindustan but by a hindu kingdom instead, just like in EU4. (Unless you guys consider Hindustan/Bharat the same country just with a different name with flavour elements like different map colour, flag colour etc.)

3. Chola Empire (Tier 3) - Telugu or Tamil nations have to go through a certain set of advances to unlock the "claim Chola heritage" advance, and restore the namesake kingdom and gain claims into the malaya region.

4. Rajputana instead of Rajput.
5. Gujarat instead of Gujurat.

6. Assam (Tier 2) - (If the Ahom dynasty is no longer in power)

7. Deccan should have localized name variations and should not exactly exist as a "Sultanate of Deccan" on the map. Depending on how its formed, it should be either the Bahamanid Sultanate (of Deccan), Nizamate of Aurangabad, Nizamate of Hyderabad etc. It should be linked to either the power centre or the dynasty ruling it.

8. Keralam (Tier 2) - Union of Malayali states.

9. Bihar (Tier 2) should be formable by Tirhut or any other state in the region if they break free from the Delhi Sultanate. As a matter of fact the Sur Empire should start off as the Sultanate of Bihar either via an event spawing the nation in the greater "Mughal Invasion" Situation.

10. Kosala (Tier 2) - If the tribal hindu/animist pops of the "Chattisgarh" region (which btw is anachronistic and should be changed ingame, along with the Chattisgarhi culture) manage to unite the area by themselves and remain independent and accept all the tribal cultures in the area.
I disagree with a Chola formable, since "Chola" was just the name of the dynasty, and I am of the personal opinion that formables shouldn't really use dynastic names. Having the Pandya dynasty be able to form the "Chola Empire" (their millennia long rivals) would be weird. Apart from that, nice suggestions.
 
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I disagree with a Chola formable, since "Chola" was just the name of the dynasty, and I am of the personal opinion that formables shouldn't really use dynastic names. Having the Pandya dynasty be able to form the "Chola Empire" (their millennia long rivals) would be weird. Apart from that, nice suggestions.
I actually agree with you on this and disagreed with the Mughals being a separate formable from Hindustan on the same grounds. The reason I suggested the Cholas, or more specifically the Chola Empire of Tamilakam, was simply for a fun flavour aspect. The last Chola king died in 1280, about 60 years before the game start. Surely some of their children could have survived and that could form grounds for a fun gameplay. I do believe the Pandyas should be locked out of this decision, but hey - it could still be fun playing as a Tamil minor and "claiming" Chola heritage, albeit falsely to further a unified Tamil identity and have a Malayan conquest route.
 
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I think I've already said that I would prefer Inca to be called Tawantinsuyu (or Tawantin Suyu, I've seen both spellings), its actual name, and not Inca, or at least there should be an option for that. Calling it Inca Empire would be no different than calling Prussia "Junker Kingdom" or "Junker Empire": it's terrible and makes no sense whatsoever, since "Inka" in Classical Quechua (that is, the language they spoke at the time of the conquest) meant something like "noble". Also, Victoria 3 calls it this way, and the name is also used in EU4 (totally unrelated to Project Ceasar) three times: before the latest DLC only in the decision that lets you form it, since the DLC also in a modifier to power projection from a mission and in the name of the mission itself (although in the latter an English translation is used: "Four Quarters Together"); so it shouldn't be a problem.

Now, having finished with this rant (that had to be done), I've noticed that some formables are missing. I've already seen someone complaining about India, but I've also noticed the lack of an "Aztec" tag (the name is debatable in this case too, but here the correct one is not as clear as in the case of Tawantinsuyu; the Nāhuatl Wikipedia calls it Mēxihcatlahtohcāyōtl, which is also reported in the Spanish and Italian ones, but I'm nowhere nearly knowledgable enough about this topic to say that it's how they actually called it), a "Qing" tag and many colonial ones (there might be others I'm missing). We don't know how colonial nations work, nor what happens when they declare independence, so there might be some other mechanic at play in this case, but what about Aztec and Qing? Are they renames of other tags or are they straight up not in the game at all?
 
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Would be nice to also have a smaller, more Italy centered independent Roman City State formable
Something like a Roman Kingdom/Roman Republic/Duchy or County of Rome tag (either plausible or ahistorical and between tier 1-3, depending on the context)

For an alternate history scenario where the city of Rome re-establishes itself as an indipended local Italian power, more focused on contending with the other italian states like Milan, Florence or Venice
 
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Latin Empire should be marked "plausible". It had only been gone for about 70 years at game start, and there's a number of catholic states in and around Greece. If one of them managed to seize Constantinople, it's not a stretch that they'd try and revive the title.
 
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What about Assyria for the Syriac culture? It's just as plausible as half the countries on this list :p
At least that one could be derived from historical autonomous regions and statelets, making it more plausible than several listed tags.
 
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