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Tinto Talks #50 - 12th February 2025

Hey everyone, and welcome back. Johan is busy today (allegedly) so instead I will walk you through this Tinto Talks on Formable Countries in our little project called Caesar. It’s a fairly tight feature so this should be nice and quick.



What are Formable Countries?

Basically, formable countries are new tags that you can switch to. Typically they represent historical unions and conquests, but some represent aspirations that never materialised.

Generally speaking, the vision behind Formables is to offer roleplaying and historical immersion, and support player fantasies, rather than modifier stacking. They will change your country name, national flag, and map color. So while you may unlock some content such as advances or other minor unique content, the tag change is often the goal in itself.

Screenshot 2025-02-12 113332.png
Screenshot 2025-02-12 112612.png

Spain gets some unique advances in the later ages, but not all do.

Rather than your country changing automatically every age, you achieve it by completing certain objectives. Usually, you'll need to control a certain percentage of a predefined set of locations, for example Scandinavia needs 75% of the locations in the Scandinavia region.

There’s typically additional requirements as well such as your Primary Culture belonging to a certain Culture Group. Forming Spain also requires you and all the independent countries in Iberia to be Christian, as it is thematically closely tied to the completion of the Reconquista. Iberian Muslims have the reverse rules for forming Al-Andalus.

Some are directly tied to actions in International Organizations, like the Holy Roman Empire or the Ilkhanate.

Formables also have a Tier that represents their natural order of precedence. You can only form countries that are the same or higher tier than you. For example, England (Tier 2) can form Great Britain (Tier 3) but Great Britain can’t form England. The AI will only form countries that are a higher tier.


Screenshot 2025-02-12 124554.png

Country formation is just a click away.


There are 3 settings to the relevant game rule.
  1. Only Historical Formable Countries
    1. Only countries that actually formed in the game’s time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Spain and Great Britain
  2. Allow Plausible Formable Countries(Default)
    1. Countries that could plausible have formed, or formed just after the time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Germany and Italy
  3. Allow Ahistorical Formable Countries
    1. Aspirational or fantasy countries can be formed. Examples include
      1. North Sea Empire (which is a Tier IV) if you control Britain and Scandinavia
      2. Europa (Tier V)



Screenshot 2025-02-12 121247.png

Some countries have different flags depending on the exact manner in which they are formed. For example this variant of the Union Jack with a dominant saltire when you start as Scotland.


1739361227786.png

And some formables come with little treats to sweeten the deal.


Screenshot 2025-02-12 123920.png

The Teutonic Order has a long way to go before they can become Prussia…


Screenshot 2025-02-12 124144.png

But it might be worth it…


Screenshot 2025-02-12 121702.png

Some exist to fulfil common player fantasies, but only appear if the player chooses in the Game Rules to have the less historical ones.



This is our current list of formable countries, let us know which ones you would like us add!

FormableTierNote
Europa5Ahistorical
Rome4Ahistorical
Hindustan4Plausible
Holy Roman Empire4Plausible
Byzantium4
Ilkhanate4
Iran4
Mongolia4
Mughals4
Rûm4
Russia4
United States4
Celtica3Ahistorical
Latin Empire3Ahistorical
North Sea3Ahistorical
Al-Andalus3Plausible
Arabia3Plausible
Canada3Plausible
Egypt3Plausible
Germany3Plausible
Italy3Plausible
Malaya3Plausible
Ruthenia3Plausible
Scandinavia3Plausible
Shan3Plausible
Banten3
Bengal3
Deccan3
Delhi3
Ethiopia3
Great Britain3
Gujurat3
Hausa3
Inca3
Kongo3
Manchu3
Maratha3
Mexico3
Poland-Lithuania3
Punjab3
Rajput3
Siam3
Sokoto3
Spain3
Timurids3
Two Sicilies3
Yamato3
Africa2Ahistorical
Carthage2Ahistorical
Hen Ogledd2Ahistorical
Aotearoa2Plausible
Greece2Plausible
Jerusalem2Plausible
Livonia2Plausible
Maya2Plausible
Albania2
Armenia2
Austria2
Ayutthaya2
Bahamis2
England2
Georgia2
Golden Horde2
Holstein2
Ireland2
Navarre2
Nepal2
Netherlands2
Poland2
Prussia2
Scotland2
Serbia2
Sweden2
Switzerland2
Tibet2
Wales2
Connacht1Plausible
Ulster1Plausible
Aïr1
Bavaria1
Beja1
Mazovia1
Mecklenburg1
Mossi1
Nassau1
Northumbria1
Pomerania1
Sardinia1
Saxony1
Silesia1


That's it for today's dev diary. Thanks for reading, and we'll see you next time, where we will talk about Subject Types, and an interesting part of the Castilian player fantasy…
 
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Hey everyone, and welcome back. Johan is busy today (allegedly) so instead I will walk you through this Tinto Talks on Formable Countries in our little project called Caesar. It’s a fairly tight feature so this should be nice and quick.



What are Formable Countries?

Basically, formable countries are new tags that you can switch to. Typically they represent historical unions and conquests, but some represent aspirations that never materialised.

Generally speaking, the vision behind Formables is to offer roleplaying and historical immersion, and support player fantasies, rather than modifier stacking. They will change your country name, national flag, and map color. So while you may unlock some content such as advances or other minor unique content, the tag change is often the goal in itself.

View attachment 1253582View attachment 1253583
Spain gets some unique advances in the later ages, but not all do.

Rather than your country changing automatically every age, you achieve it by completing certain objectives. Usually, you'll need to control a certain percentage of a predefined set of locations, for example Scandinavia needs 75% of the locations in the Scandinavia region.

There’s typically additional requirements as well such as your Primary Culture belonging to a certain Culture Group. Forming Spain also requires you and all the independent countries in Iberia to be Christian, as it is thematically closely tied to the completion of the Reconquista. Iberian Muslims have the reverse rules for forming Al-Andalus.

Some are directly tied to actions in International Organizations, like the Holy Roman Empire or the Ilkhanate.

Formables also have a Tier that represents their natural order of precedence. You can only form countries that are the same or higher tier than you. For example, England (Tier 2) can form Great Britain (Tier 3) but Great Britain can’t form England. The AI will only form countries that are a higher tier.


View attachment 1253586
Country formation is just a click away.


There are 3 settings to the relevant game rule.
  1. Only Historical Formable Countries
    1. Only countries that actually formed in the game’s time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Spain and Great Britain
  2. Allow Plausible Formable Countries(Default)
    1. Countries that could plausible have formed, or formed just after the time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Germany and Italy
  3. Allow Ahistorical Formable Countries
    1. Aspirational or fantasy countries can be formed. Examples include
      1. North Sea Empire (which is a Tier IV) if you control Britain and Scandinavia
      2. Europa (Tier V)



View attachment 1253589
Some countries have different flags depending on the exact manner in which they are formed. For example this variant of the Union Jack with a dominant saltire when you start as Scotland.


View attachment 1253591
And some formables come with little treats to sweeten the deal.


View attachment 1253592
The Teutonic Order has a long way to go before they can become Prussia…


View attachment 1253593
But it might be worth it…


View attachment 1253594
Some exist to fulfil common player fantasies, but only appear if the player chooses in the Game Rules to have the less historical ones.



This is our current list of formable countries, let us know which ones you would like us add!

FormableTierNote
Europa5Ahistorical
Rome4Ahistorical
Hindustan4Plausible
Holy Roman Empire4Plausible
Byzantium4
Ilkhanate4
Iran4
Mongolia4
Mughals4
Rûm4
Russia4
United States4
Celtica3Ahistorical
Latin Empire3Ahistorical
North Sea3Ahistorical
Al-Andalus3Plausible
Arabia3Plausible
Canada3Plausible
Egypt3Plausible
Germany3Plausible
Italy3Plausible
Malaya3Plausible
Ruthenia3Plausible
Scandinavia3Plausible
Shan3Plausible
Banten3
Bengal3
Deccan3
Delhi3
Ethiopia3
Great Britain3
Gujurat3
Hausa3
Inca3
Kongo3
Manchu3
Maratha3
Mexico3
Poland-Lithuania3
Punjab3
Rajput3
Siam3
Sokoto3
Spain3
Timurids3
Two Sicilies3
Yamato3
Africa2Ahistorical
Carthage2Ahistorical
Hen Ogledd2Ahistorical
Aotearoa2Plausible
Greece2Plausible
Jerusalem2Plausible
Livonia2Plausible
Maya2Plausible
Albania2
Armenia2
Austria2
Ayutthaya2
Bahamis2
England2
Georgia2
Golden Horde2
Holstein2
Ireland2
Navarre2
Nepal2
Netherlands2
Poland2
Prussia2
Scotland2
Serbia2
Sweden2
Switzerland2
Tibet2
Wales2
Connacht1Plausible
Ulster1Plausible
Aïr1
Bavaria1
Beja1
Mazovia1
Mecklenburg1
Mossi1
Nassau1
Northumbria1
Pomerania1
Sardinia1
Saxony1
Silesia1


That's it for today's dev diary. Thanks for reading, and we'll see you next time, where we will talk about Subject Types, and an interesting part of the Castilian player fantasy…
 
Hey everyone, and welcome back. Johan is busy today (allegedly) so instead I will walk you through this Tinto Talks on Formable Countries in our little project called Caesar. It’s a fairly tight feature so this should be nice and quick.



What are Formable Countries?

Basically, formable countries are new tags that you can switch to. Typically they represent historical unions and conquests, but some represent aspirations that never materialised.

Generally speaking, the vision behind Formables is to offer roleplaying and historical immersion, and support player fantasies, rather than modifier stacking. They will change your country name, national flag, and map color. So while you may unlock some content such as advances or other minor unique content, the tag change is often the goal in itself.

View attachment 1253582View attachment 1253583
Spain gets some unique advances in the later ages, but not all do.

Rather than your country changing automatically every age, you achieve it by completing certain objectives. Usually, you'll need to control a certain percentage of a predefined set of locations, for example Scandinavia needs 75% of the locations in the Scandinavia region.

There’s typically additional requirements as well such as your Primary Culture belonging to a certain Culture Group. Forming Spain also requires you and all the independent countries in Iberia to be Christian, as it is thematically closely tied to the completion of the Reconquista. Iberian Muslims have the reverse rules for forming Al-Andalus.

Some are directly tied to actions in International Organizations, like the Holy Roman Empire or the Ilkhanate.

Formables also have a Tier that represents their natural order of precedence. You can only form countries that are the same or higher tier than you. For example, England (Tier 2) can form Great Britain (Tier 3) but Great Britain can’t form England. The AI will only form countries that are a higher tier.


View attachment 1253586
Country formation is just a click away.


There are 3 settings to the relevant game rule.
  1. Only Historical Formable Countries
    1. Only countries that actually formed in the game’s time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Spain and Great Britain
  2. Allow Plausible Formable Countries(Default)
    1. Countries that could plausible have formed, or formed just after the time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Germany and Italy
  3. Allow Ahistorical Formable Countries
    1. Aspirational or fantasy countries can be formed. Examples include
      1. North Sea Empire (which is a Tier IV) if you control Britain and Scandinavia
      2. Europa (Tier V)



View attachment 1253589
Some countries have different flags depending on the exact manner in which they are formed. For example this variant of the Union Jack with a dominant saltire when you start as Scotland.


View attachment 1253591
And some formables come with little treats to sweeten the deal.


View attachment 1253592
The Teutonic Order has a long way to go before they can become Prussia…


View attachment 1253593
But it might be worth it…


View attachment 1253594
Some exist to fulfil common player fantasies, but only appear if the player chooses in the Game Rules to have the less historical ones.



This is our current list of formable countries, let us know which ones you would like us add!

FormableTierNote
Europa5Ahistorical
Rome4Ahistorical
Hindustan4Plausible
Holy Roman Empire4Plausible
Byzantium4
Ilkhanate4
Iran4
Mongolia4
Mughals4
Rûm4
Russia4
United States4
Celtica3Ahistorical
Latin Empire3Ahistorical
North Sea3Ahistorical
Al-Andalus3Plausible
Arabia3Plausible
Canada3Plausible
Egypt3Plausible
Germany3Plausible
Italy3Plausible
Malaya3Plausible
Ruthenia3Plausible
Scandinavia3Plausible
Shan3Plausible
Banten3
Bengal3
Deccan3
Delhi3
Ethiopia3
Great Britain3
Gujurat3
Hausa3
Inca3
Kongo3
Manchu3
Maratha3
Mexico3
Poland-Lithuania3
Punjab3
Rajput3
Siam3
Sokoto3
Spain3
Timurids3
Two Sicilies3
Yamato3
Africa2Ahistorical
Carthage2Ahistorical
Hen Ogledd2Ahistorical
Aotearoa2Plausible
Greece2Plausible
Jerusalem2Plausible
Livonia2Plausible
Maya2Plausible
Albania2
Armenia2
Austria2
Ayutthaya2
Bahamis2
England2
Georgia2
Golden Horde2
Holstein2
Ireland2
Navarre2
Nepal2
Netherlands2
Poland2
Prussia2
Scotland2
Serbia2
Sweden2
Switzerland2
Tibet2
Wales2
Connacht1Plausible
Ulster1Plausible
Aïr1
Bavaria1
Beja1
Mazovia1
Mecklenburg1
Mossi1
Nassau1
Northumbria1
Pomerania1
Sardinia1
Saxony1
Silesia1


That's it for today's dev diary. Thanks for reading, and we'll see you next time, where we will talk about Subject Types, and an interesting part of the Castilian player fantasy…
What I want to say is that we should add some tags could be formed to the Chinese region like Song dynasty and Jin dynasty
 
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There were serious discussions several times during the 1600s about an Anglo-Dutch union, especially when it looked like both countries would be Protestant-run republics. I’m not sure what the country tag would be called (maybe literally “The Anglo-Dutch Union?”) but it should probably be a formable nation.

Also, there were a bunch of proposals in the mid 1700s to turn the British Empire into an imperial confederation with an imperial parliament. That could definitely be a formable too, with different parliamentary mechanics if added.
 
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We thought about that kind of thing, using development or population to give locations a score towards country formables.

It becomes more difficult for players to understand what they need to do to achieve the goal though, and also it could lead to a weird situation where the player makes Denmark super developed and can then claim "Scandinavia" without even setting foot in Norway or Sweden.
Then maybe a combination of the two, where you need certain locations around the formable's region AND a certain percentage of development?
 
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To enhance the historical identity of the Korean Peninsula, I propose adding two formable nations: Baekje and Korea (or Dai Han).

1. Baekje​

Although Baekje was destroyed during the Three Kingdoms period, it was later revived as Later Baekje during the Later Three Kingdoms period, once again establishing a powerful presence in the southern part of the Korean Peninsula. Additionally, Japan’s Ouchi Clan claimed to be the successors of Baekje, emphasizing their historical ties to the kingdom.

The formation conditions for Baekje could be as follows:

  • If Tamna (Jeju) conquers the southern regions of the Korean Peninsula (modern-day Gyeonggi, Chungcheong, and Jeolla areas).
  • If Japan’s Ouchi Clan occupies the same territory.
The national tier of Baekje should be either equal to or lower than Goryeo. It would be appropriate to categorize Baekje as Ahistorical.

2. Korea (Dai Han)​

The name Korea originates from Goryeo, but Goryeo did not unify the entire Korean Peninsula. Later, the Joseon Dynasty emerged and unified the peninsula, yet it would be more appropriate to retain the name Joseon for historical accuracy.

However, considering the historical precedent of the Empire of Korea (Dai Han) proclaimed in the late 19th century, a formable nation called Korea or Dai Han could be introduced. This nation would represent a higher-tier compared to Goryeo or Joseon and could be formed under the following conditions:
  • If it conquers Manchuria or parts of Japan.
  • If it undergoes specific reforms or modernization.
The appropriate classification for this nation would be Plausible.
 
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Hi, awesome talk yesterday. one comment is that i wish to see Norway-swedish union form if you manage to reverse the shenanigans that where magnus errikson with the later norwegian king of haakon magnusson. And if possible to see the same with norway-denmark or sweden-denmark for who controls the kalmar union (like denmark did in our time

1739431998199.png
 
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I don't know that I like the tier system. The way it worked in Victoria 3 resulted in a lot of really asinine things like the decision to form Yemen being broken for all of the Yemeni tags for a while.

I really hope the AI is good at prioritizing these, because the way AI prioritizes its decisions in EU4 resulted in a lot of wonky outcomes there. Colonial Nations that owned the whole Louisiana Territory would always form Illinois and countries that owned the entire eastern seaboard would always choose Florida first because they were first in its decision list. This was worked around by making it so that the form United States decision isn't removed when they do one of these formations, but mega Illinois persisted.

Hen Ogledd did surprise me though, even if the "Celtica" name is very silly to me.
Yeah I'm trying to think of a name myself as Celtica seems very Latin lol
 
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I can understand forming Spain first before Iberia, but any particular reason why the Incans can become the people of Kongo or become the Holy Roman Empire? And with tag-specific advances, features, etc, this hideous catch-them-all-Pokemon gameplay just will not die.
 
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A lot of people have been asking for a formable for a centralised union of England and France, and I think that's entirely reasonable, but it should absolutely not be called "Angevin Empire". "Dual Monarchy", or even just "England-France", would be a million times more sensible in the context of the Hundred Years War (especially given that nobody knew what an "Angevin Empire" was at the time).

That aside, a formable for Poland-Lithuania-Ruthenia would be nice. But maybe that'd be represented perfectly well by regular Poland-Lithuania.
 
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I would like to heavily criticize your "Scotland forms Great Britain" Flag. Scotland did form Great Britain. The English throne was inherited by Scotland. The Stewarts were Scottish and nephews of Robert the Bruce who famously defeated the English. The normal union jack is the "Scotland forms Great Britain". There's always the narrative in EU games that is was the other way around, which always ends with England ahistorically conquering Scotland.
Although James VI was Scottish, on balance England was the initiator and the 'winner' in both the 1606 personal union and especially the 1707 political union (which the formable most closely represents). Both were plots driven from London and went on to strengthen London as the political centre of the island, leaving Edinburgh politically weaker.
 
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I think a better name for Celtica maybe would be dependant on the language group that formed it

If Brythonic Then
If Welsh then
Celtiaid
Else
Keltieg
Else
Ceiltigh

Sorry about the other Celtic languages If I butchered I only know Irish. The idea being that its just the plural form of Celt i.e. Celts in English
 
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As Ssangseong and Tamna both exist, Goryeo should be a tier 2 formable for Korean tags if they take over Goryeo. Forming Goryeo should allow the possibility of choosing of a new cosmetic name for the new dynasty, such as Silla, Baekje, Joseon, Taebong, or names of failed rebellions such as Daewi or Jangan.

For Manchuria, it would be interesting if there was an event for the Joseon-era rebel, Yi Ching-ok, to form Manchuria He tried to rally Jurchen support for his rebellion by declaring himself the emperor of the newly revived Jin dynasty in 1453, a century and a half before Nurhaci successfully did. The player could choose whether to stay Korean or adopt the Jurchen culture if the rebellion was a success unlike the historical outcome.
 
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Hen Ogledd did surprise me though, even if the "Celtica" name is very silly to me.

Celtica is a horrendous name for a Pan-Celtic tag, not only is it derived from an exonym, it also just isn't used in any historical context,

Yeah I'm trying to think of a name myself as Celtica seems very Latin lol


The concept of pan-Celticism is a modern one so it will be hard to find a single name that works perfectly in the historical context. But the name "Celtica" does have some currency as it was coined by pan-Celticist historian Peter Berresford Ellis to discuss his proposed Celtic nation and has been used by others since.
 
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Suggestions (if they have not already appeared in the last 16 pages):
  • A formable for a united Maghreb, if Carthage or Africa don't already refer to this. If this is what the Kingdom of Africa refers to, a dynamic name and flag if it's formed by an Arab/Berber tag or a European Christian tag would be cool, just to have Africa and Al-Maghreb be two names for the same tag.
  • Yugoslavia / Illyria, in at least some form (e.g. Yugoslavia only, and only for south Slavs?)
These are both regions in EU4 where I always felt a little disappointed there wasn't a formable to congratulate players on unifying the area.

Additionally: I think "Celtica" is a bit too ahistorical as a name. I'm guessing it's a celtic British Isles (plus Brittany?) tag? I would prefer drawing more from Crusader Kings, and using the translated names of the two islands (as "Britain" would then apply to Brittany, sorta), either with "and" or a "-" between them a la Austria-Hungary. Just from google translate:

WelshPrydain ac Iwerddon
CornishBresytyn ha Iwerdhon (?)
BretonBreizh-Veur hag Iwerzhon
Irish GaelicÉire agus an Bhreatain
Scots GaelicBreatainn agus Èirinn
ManxBretin as Nerin
It just seems too long winded with Éire agus (na) Breataine. And if the idea is that it is a Celtic state I think it should just be the endonym for The Celts in each languages, eg (na) Ceiltigh --> as Gaeilge
 
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Why are most Latin American republics missing despite achieving independence prior to 1837? There's only Mexico, we're missing Brazil, Peru, Colombia, Central America, Rio de la Plata, just to name a few. Would be nice to have Quebec, Louisiana, California and Texas as well.
A lot of the Colonial nations will naturally be called that way and won't need to use the formable system. There's definitely a few good suggestions here that should be formables that we can add though.
 
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The concept of pan-Celticism is a modern one so it will be hard to find a single name that works perfectly in the historical context. But the name "Celtica" does have some currency as it was coined by pan-Celticist historian Peter Berresford Ellis to discuss his proposed Celtic nation and has been used by others since.
Great dev diary btw!
 
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To enhance the historical identity of the Korean Peninsula, I propose adding two formable nations: Baekje and Korea (or Dai Han).

1. Baekje​

Although Baekje was destroyed during the Three Kingdoms period, it was later revived as Later Baekje during the Later Three Kingdoms period, once again establishing a powerful presence in the southern part of the Korean Peninsula. Additionally, Japan’s Ouchi Clan claimed to be the successors of Baekje, emphasizing their historical ties to the kingdom.

The formation conditions for Baekje could be as follows:

  • If Tamna (Jeju) conquers the southern regions of the Korean Peninsula (modern-day Gyeonggi, Chungcheong, and Jeolla areas).
  • If Japan’s Ouchi Clan occupies the same territory.
The national tier of Baekje should be either equal to or lower than Goryeo. It would be appropriate to categorize Baekje as Ahistorical.

2. Korea (Dai Han)​

The name Korea originates from Goryeo, but Goryeo did not unify the entire Korean Peninsula. Later, the Joseon Dynasty emerged and unified the peninsula, yet it would be more appropriate to retain the name Joseon for historical accuracy.

However, considering the historical precedent of the Empire of Korea (Dai Han) proclaimed in the late 19th century, a formable nation called Korea or Dai Han could be introduced. This nation would represent a higher-tier compared to Goryeo or Joseon and could be formed under the following conditions:
  • If it conquers Manchuria or parts of Japan.
  • If it undergoes specific reforms or modernization.
The appropriate classification for this nation would be Plausible.
When Joseon Dynasty changed its name to the Korean Empire, it did not occupy any Manchurian or Japanese lands, and was even a puppet state of Japan.
 
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