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Tinto Talks #50 - 12th February 2025

Hey everyone, and welcome back. Johan is busy today (allegedly) so instead I will walk you through this Tinto Talks on Formable Countries in our little project called Caesar. It’s a fairly tight feature so this should be nice and quick.



What are Formable Countries?

Basically, formable countries are new tags that you can switch to. Typically they represent historical unions and conquests, but some represent aspirations that never materialised.

Generally speaking, the vision behind Formables is to offer roleplaying and historical immersion, and support player fantasies, rather than modifier stacking. They will change your country name, national flag, and map color. So while you may unlock some content such as advances or other minor unique content, the tag change is often the goal in itself.

Screenshot 2025-02-12 113332.png
Screenshot 2025-02-12 112612.png

Spain gets some unique advances in the later ages, but not all do.

Rather than your country changing automatically every age, you achieve it by completing certain objectives. Usually, you'll need to control a certain percentage of a predefined set of locations, for example Scandinavia needs 75% of the locations in the Scandinavia region.

There’s typically additional requirements as well such as your Primary Culture belonging to a certain Culture Group. Forming Spain also requires you and all the independent countries in Iberia to be Christian, as it is thematically closely tied to the completion of the Reconquista. Iberian Muslims have the reverse rules for forming Al-Andalus.

Some are directly tied to actions in International Organizations, like the Holy Roman Empire or the Ilkhanate.

Formables also have a Tier that represents their natural order of precedence. You can only form countries that are the same or higher tier than you. For example, England (Tier 2) can form Great Britain (Tier 3) but Great Britain can’t form England. The AI will only form countries that are a higher tier.


Screenshot 2025-02-12 124554.png

Country formation is just a click away.


There are 3 settings to the relevant game rule.
  1. Only Historical Formable Countries
    1. Only countries that actually formed in the game’s time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Spain and Great Britain
  2. Allow Plausible Formable Countries(Default)
    1. Countries that could plausible have formed, or formed just after the time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Germany and Italy
  3. Allow Ahistorical Formable Countries
    1. Aspirational or fantasy countries can be formed. Examples include
      1. North Sea Empire (which is a Tier IV) if you control Britain and Scandinavia
      2. Europa (Tier V)



Screenshot 2025-02-12 121247.png

Some countries have different flags depending on the exact manner in which they are formed. For example this variant of the Union Jack with a dominant saltire when you start as Scotland.


1739361227786.png

And some formables come with little treats to sweeten the deal.


Screenshot 2025-02-12 123920.png

The Teutonic Order has a long way to go before they can become Prussia…


Screenshot 2025-02-12 124144.png

But it might be worth it…


Screenshot 2025-02-12 121702.png

Some exist to fulfil common player fantasies, but only appear if the player chooses in the Game Rules to have the less historical ones.



This is our current list of formable countries, let us know which ones you would like us add!

FormableTierNote
Europa5Ahistorical
Rome4Ahistorical
Hindustan4Plausible
Holy Roman Empire4Plausible
Byzantium4
Ilkhanate4
Iran4
Mongolia4
Mughals4
Rûm4
Russia4
United States4
Celtica3Ahistorical
Latin Empire3Ahistorical
North Sea3Ahistorical
Al-Andalus3Plausible
Arabia3Plausible
Canada3Plausible
Egypt3Plausible
Germany3Plausible
Italy3Plausible
Malaya3Plausible
Ruthenia3Plausible
Scandinavia3Plausible
Shan3Plausible
Banten3
Bengal3
Deccan3
Delhi3
Ethiopia3
Great Britain3
Gujurat3
Hausa3
Inca3
Kongo3
Manchu3
Maratha3
Mexico3
Poland-Lithuania3
Punjab3
Rajput3
Siam3
Sokoto3
Spain3
Timurids3
Two Sicilies3
Yamato3
Africa2Ahistorical
Carthage2Ahistorical
Hen Ogledd2Ahistorical
Aotearoa2Plausible
Greece2Plausible
Jerusalem2Plausible
Livonia2Plausible
Maya2Plausible
Albania2
Armenia2
Austria2
Ayutthaya2
Bahamis2
England2
Georgia2
Golden Horde2
Holstein2
Ireland2
Navarre2
Nepal2
Netherlands2
Poland2
Prussia2
Scotland2
Serbia2
Sweden2
Switzerland2
Tibet2
Wales2
Connacht1Plausible
Ulster1Plausible
Aïr1
Bavaria1
Beja1
Mazovia1
Mecklenburg1
Mossi1
Nassau1
Northumbria1
Pomerania1
Sardinia1
Saxony1
Silesia1


That's it for today's dev diary. Thanks for reading, and we'll see you next time, where we will talk about Subject Types, and an interesting part of the Castilian player fantasy…
 
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Hey everyone, and welcome back. Johan is busy today (allegedly) so instead I will walk you through this Tinto Talks on Formable Countries in our little project called Caesar. It’s a fairly tight feature so this should be nice and quick.



What are Formable Countries?

Basically, formable countries are new tags that you can switch to. Typically they represent historical unions and conquests, but some represent aspirations that never materialised.

Generally speaking, the vision behind Formables is to offer roleplaying and historical immersion, and support player fantasies, rather than modifier stacking. They will change your country name, national flag, and map color. So while you may unlock some content such as advances or other minor unique content, the tag change is often the goal in itself.

View attachment 1253582View attachment 1253583
Spain gets some unique advances in the later ages, but not all do.

Rather than your country changing automatically every age, you achieve it by completing certain objectives. Usually, you'll need to control a certain percentage of a predefined set of locations, for example Scandinavia needs 75% of the locations in the Scandinavia region.

There’s typically additional requirements as well such as your Primary Culture belonging to a certain Culture Group. Forming Spain also requires you and all the independent countries in Iberia to be Christian, as it is thematically closely tied to the completion of the Reconquista. Iberian Muslims have the reverse rules for forming Al-Andalus.

Some are directly tied to actions in International Organizations, like the Holy Roman Empire or the Ilkhanate.

Formables also have a Tier that represents their natural order of precedence. You can only form countries that are the same or higher tier than you. For example, England (Tier 2) can form Great Britain (Tier 3) but Great Britain can’t form England. The AI will only form countries that are a higher tier.


View attachment 1253586
Country formation is just a click away.


There are 3 settings to the relevant game rule.
  1. Only Historical Formable Countries
    1. Only countries that actually formed in the game’s time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Spain and Great Britain
  2. Allow Plausible Formable Countries(Default)
    1. Countries that could plausible have formed, or formed just after the time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Germany and Italy
  3. Allow Ahistorical Formable Countries
    1. Aspirational or fantasy countries can be formed. Examples include
      1. North Sea Empire (which is a Tier IV) if you control Britain and Scandinavia
      2. Europa (Tier V)



View attachment 1253589
Some countries have different flags depending on the exact manner in which they are formed. For example this variant of the Union Jack with a dominant saltire when you start as Scotland.


View attachment 1253591
And some formables come with little treats to sweeten the deal.


View attachment 1253592
The Teutonic Order has a long way to go before they can become Prussia…


View attachment 1253593
But it might be worth it…


View attachment 1253594
Some exist to fulfil common player fantasies, but only appear if the player chooses in the Game Rules to have the less historical ones.



This is our current list of formable countries, let us know which ones you would like us add!

FormableTierNote
Europa5Ahistorical
Rome4Ahistorical
Hindustan4Plausible
Holy Roman Empire4Plausible
Byzantium4
Ilkhanate4
Iran4
Mongolia4
Mughals4
Rûm4
Russia4
United States4
Celtica3Ahistorical
Latin Empire3Ahistorical
North Sea3Ahistorical
Al-Andalus3Plausible
Arabia3Plausible
Canada3Plausible
Egypt3Plausible
Germany3Plausible
Italy3Plausible
Malaya3Plausible
Ruthenia3Plausible
Scandinavia3Plausible
Shan3Plausible
Banten3
Bengal3
Deccan3
Delhi3
Ethiopia3
Great Britain3
Gujurat3
Hausa3
Inca3
Kongo3
Manchu3
Maratha3
Mexico3
Poland-Lithuania3
Punjab3
Rajput3
Siam3
Sokoto3
Spain3
Timurids3
Two Sicilies3
Yamato3
Africa2Ahistorical
Carthage2Ahistorical
Hen Ogledd2Ahistorical
Aotearoa2Plausible
Greece2Plausible
Jerusalem2Plausible
Livonia2Plausible
Maya2Plausible
Albania2
Armenia2
Austria2
Ayutthaya2
Bahamis2
England2
Georgia2
Golden Horde2
Holstein2
Ireland2
Navarre2
Nepal2
Netherlands2
Poland2
Prussia2
Scotland2
Serbia2
Sweden2
Switzerland2
Tibet2
Wales2
Connacht1Plausible
Ulster1Plausible
Aïr1
Bavaria1
Beja1
Mazovia1
Mecklenburg1
Mossi1
Nassau1
Northumbria1
Pomerania1
Sardinia1
Saxony1
Silesia1


That's it for today's dev diary. Thanks for reading, and we'll see you next time, where we will talk about Subject Types, and an interesting part of the Castilian player fantasy…
Ynys y Cedyrn formable for wales? :)
 
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We thought about that kind of thing, using development or population to give locations a score towards country formables.

It becomes more difficult for players to understand what they need to do to achieve the goal though, and also it could lead to a weird situation where the player makes Denmark super developed and can then claim "Scandinavia" without even setting foot in Norway or Sweden.
What about development/population AND certain % of territories? To prevent some strange situations where you have lots of undeveloped territories and still claim new country, but the developed regions are still in other hands
 
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I do believe Austria-Hungary should be in there as a "plausible" formable.

The Magyars had never been happy about suddenly being incorporated into this newfangled "Austrian" Empire Franz I had inventend in 1804. As far as they were concerned, Hungary was an independent kingdom that happened to be in personal union with other Habsburg domains and the King of Hungary did not have the right to integrate it into a larger entity.

Now with Metternich in charge such sentiments were of course ruthlessly suppressed, but once the Metternich system weakened the issue quickly came to the forefront. It was a big driver in the Hungarian Revolt of 1848/49. IRL this revolt was crushed with Russian aid, but that did not resolve the issue and the Habsburgs eventually had to give in and accept the Compromise of 1866.

And while 1848 and 1866 are of course beyond the time period of the game there is no particular reason why a similar chain of events could not play out 30-40 years earlier. Maybe there is no Metternich or the Metternich system fails earlier. Maybe there is no Russian aid avaiable and the revolt is more successful and there is a negotiated settlement. Maybe an Austrian ruler sees the writing on the wall and makes a compromise before things get out of hand.

All of these could lead to an Austro-Hungarian Empire forming before the game ends.
 
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  1. Can we change the flag without changing the Country? (eg. if the Country flag contains a religious flag, but the religion changes)
  2. Can a country colapse? (eg. Scandinavia owns less than 75% of Scandinavia, does it stay Scandinavia or does it change back to the country that formed it?
  3. Can a countries name Change? (like Austrian Empire --> Austria-Hungary)
  4. Could "Rome" be a title? Since many different countries claimed to be the successor of Rome
 
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Please add belgium, I dont want to form the netherlands every time when playing in the lowlands. It would give alot more flavour to the region, because otherwise you would just always form the netherlands when playing in the region,
 
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I think if an independent country is called Dai Han, it may need to seize the "mandate of heaven" and declare itself as the true Chinese dynasty.
大韓 means big han that unified three hans(goguryeo, baekje, silla).
I don't think daihan has any connection to the true Chinese dynasty.
 
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Surprised none of the regional German formables are here (Swabia, Rhineland, Westphalia etc) (Plausible/historical)

I think it would be cool to have Iberia/Hispania as a formable for the union of Spain and Portugal (ahistorical or plausible).

Mare Nostrum could be a cool formable for some sort of pan-Mediterranean empire, especially since we have the North Sea Empire, but it should probably be limited to romance cultures and obviously ahistorical
 
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大韓 means big han that unified three hans(goguryeo, baekje, silla).
I don't think daihan has any connection to the true Chinese dynasty.
I know, what I mean is that when traveling in East Asia, I believe most people will eventually engage in the so-called 'taming the dragon'. If you establish 大韩 too early, you will lose the ability to further upgrade after taming the dragon.
 
I might have forgotten this piece of information, but can a lesser tag increase in ranks through organic ways? A duchy getting mightier and becoming a Kingdom for example?
 
Also as a pan-nationalist movement just naming it after these countries obviously seems a tad out of scope and most of them exclude Breizh. It's hard to name it as it is a ahistorical tag, and the divide in the Celtic Languages Brythonic and Goidelic make it hard to come to very sort of common word for us all. Which I think is was endonym for Celts for each language might be best. Saying that, Celtica is fine. Just feels very Latin to me which sort of feels wrong but as pointed out above a pan-celtic historian used this term too and if its good enough for him, good enough for me.
I think I would prefer the endonym in the state language of the tag that formed it. Maya and Inca are in the game as similar endonym-nation tags and it's a similar enough principle. And I dunno, I think it's very satisfying in Crusader Kings to really succeed as the Celts and end up with an empire called Alba instead of Britannia. It's a sort-of-silly ahistorical formable, but given the theming of it as a celtic revival, it's a case where I think for the player having the name in their celtic language of choice would be more satisfying than having it latinised. Maybe have it as a decision like the Iran-Persia-Eranshahr case in EU4.
 
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I think the 10th century duchy of Franconia would fit the list of formables nicely. Also possibly other stemduchies from the 9th and 10th century (Saxony, Bavaria, Swabia, Lotharingia). Albrecht Achilles tried reforming the duchy of Franconia during the 15th century, so it's well inside the timeframe of the game.
 
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Would it be possible for (some) formable nations to choose from a list of names? Like how in EU4, Malaya can choose between one of four different names. Something like Yamato/Japan/Nippon, Great Britain/United Kingdom, Malaya/Nusantara, Spain/Hispania/Lusitania, etc. Plus maybe a game rule to disable the extra/ahistorical names for the AI or for all nations.
Please don't do this for Malaya again. It's a misnomer to call Malaya "Nusantara", or even "Srivijaya", and don't even let me get to "Majapahit Empire".

If you really want to do it, at least make sure the name change is actually a different name that they call that country, not another entire separate entity because both Srivijaya and Malaya were two different countries, while Nusantara is another thing entirely. "Majapahit" to "Nusantara" I guess is fine if you make it in a way that they changed the name once they reach their zenith, but at that point, I much rather Nusantara be a different tag just to allow other tags in the region to aspire to reach it
 
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