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Tinto Talks #50 - 12th February 2025

Hey everyone, and welcome back. Johan is busy today (allegedly) so instead I will walk you through this Tinto Talks on Formable Countries in our little project called Caesar. It’s a fairly tight feature so this should be nice and quick.



What are Formable Countries?

Basically, formable countries are new tags that you can switch to. Typically they represent historical unions and conquests, but some represent aspirations that never materialised.

Generally speaking, the vision behind Formables is to offer roleplaying and historical immersion, and support player fantasies, rather than modifier stacking. They will change your country name, national flag, and map color. So while you may unlock some content such as advances or other minor unique content, the tag change is often the goal in itself.

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Spain gets some unique advances in the later ages, but not all do.

Rather than your country changing automatically every age, you achieve it by completing certain objectives. Usually, you'll need to control a certain percentage of a predefined set of locations, for example Scandinavia needs 75% of the locations in the Scandinavia region.

There’s typically additional requirements as well such as your Primary Culture belonging to a certain Culture Group. Forming Spain also requires you and all the independent countries in Iberia to be Christian, as it is thematically closely tied to the completion of the Reconquista. Iberian Muslims have the reverse rules for forming Al-Andalus.

Some are directly tied to actions in International Organizations, like the Holy Roman Empire or the Ilkhanate.

Formables also have a Tier that represents their natural order of precedence. You can only form countries that are the same or higher tier than you. For example, England (Tier 2) can form Great Britain (Tier 3) but Great Britain can’t form England. The AI will only form countries that are a higher tier.


Screenshot 2025-02-12 124554.png

Country formation is just a click away.


There are 3 settings to the relevant game rule.
  1. Only Historical Formable Countries
    1. Only countries that actually formed in the game’s time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Spain and Great Britain
  2. Allow Plausible Formable Countries(Default)
    1. Countries that could plausible have formed, or formed just after the time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Germany and Italy
  3. Allow Ahistorical Formable Countries
    1. Aspirational or fantasy countries can be formed. Examples include
      1. North Sea Empire (which is a Tier IV) if you control Britain and Scandinavia
      2. Europa (Tier V)



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Some countries have different flags depending on the exact manner in which they are formed. For example this variant of the Union Jack with a dominant saltire when you start as Scotland.


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And some formables come with little treats to sweeten the deal.


Screenshot 2025-02-12 123920.png

The Teutonic Order has a long way to go before they can become Prussia…


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But it might be worth it…


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Some exist to fulfil common player fantasies, but only appear if the player chooses in the Game Rules to have the less historical ones.



This is our current list of formable countries, let us know which ones you would like us add!

FormableTierNote
Europa5Ahistorical
Rome4Ahistorical
Hindustan4Plausible
Holy Roman Empire4Plausible
Byzantium4
Ilkhanate4
Iran4
Mongolia4
Mughals4
Rûm4
Russia4
United States4
Celtica3Ahistorical
Latin Empire3Ahistorical
North Sea3Ahistorical
Al-Andalus3Plausible
Arabia3Plausible
Canada3Plausible
Egypt3Plausible
Germany3Plausible
Italy3Plausible
Malaya3Plausible
Ruthenia3Plausible
Scandinavia3Plausible
Shan3Plausible
Banten3
Bengal3
Deccan3
Delhi3
Ethiopia3
Great Britain3
Gujurat3
Hausa3
Inca3
Kongo3
Manchu3
Maratha3
Mexico3
Poland-Lithuania3
Punjab3
Rajput3
Siam3
Sokoto3
Spain3
Timurids3
Two Sicilies3
Yamato3
Africa2Ahistorical
Carthage2Ahistorical
Hen Ogledd2Ahistorical
Aotearoa2Plausible
Greece2Plausible
Jerusalem2Plausible
Livonia2Plausible
Maya2Plausible
Albania2
Armenia2
Austria2
Ayutthaya2
Bahamis2
England2
Georgia2
Golden Horde2
Holstein2
Ireland2
Navarre2
Nepal2
Netherlands2
Poland2
Prussia2
Scotland2
Serbia2
Sweden2
Switzerland2
Tibet2
Wales2
Connacht1Plausible
Ulster1Plausible
Aïr1
Bavaria1
Beja1
Mazovia1
Mecklenburg1
Mossi1
Nassau1
Northumbria1
Pomerania1
Sardinia1
Saxony1
Silesia1


That's it for today's dev diary. Thanks for reading, and we'll see you next time, where we will talk about Subject Types, and an interesting part of the Castilian player fantasy…
 
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a couple suggestions

Romania/Dacia
Western Roman Empire(WRE ERE co-op)
Arles
Aquitainia
Franconia
Swabia
Lower Lorraine
Upper Lorraine
Lotharingia
Francia/Frankish Empire
Illyria/Yugoslavia
Dalmatia
Gran Colombia
Great Moravia
V.O.C.
Vinland
Brazil
Macedon/Macedonian Empire
Jan Mayan(tier 5 tag obiously)
Rohan

Dietsland(alt name for lower franconian Germany)
i would like the flag of the Burgundian Netherlands to be avaliable as an option for the Netherlands
More appropriate name would be Illyria. At that time, Iliryan name was used for the language of the Croats, but the idea of unifying the Balkan peoples (today's nations that emerged from Yugoslavia and Albania) was never realized and idea is historical. The name Yugoslavia only arose with the decline of the idea of Illyrianism and the emergence of Pan-Slavism in the late 19th and early 20th centuries
 
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When Joseon Dynasty changed its name to the Korean Empire, it did not occupy any Manchurian or Japanese lands, and was even a puppet state of Japan.
I understand that as well. However, I wrote it that way not for historical accuracy, but because I believe it would be better from a game design perspective to structure it that way in order to raise the tier.
 
I think it's unfortunate that you are pushing for this switch from modifier stacking towards roleplaying. Stacking modifiers is what made EU4 fun. It was a strategy game all about min-maxxing your country to make it as powerfull as possible. CK3 is designed for roleplayers and its not fun at all for the people who love this aspect/playstyle of EU4.
 
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1. Baekje​

Although Baekje was destroyed during the Three Kingdoms period, it was later revived as Later Baekje during the Later Three Kingdoms period, once again establishing a powerful presence in the southern part of the Korean Peninsula. Additionally, Japan’s Ouchi Clan claimed to be the successors of Baekje, emphasizing their historical ties to the kingdom.

The formation conditions for Baekje could be as follows:

  • If Tamna (Jeju) conquers the southern regions of the Korean Peninsula (modern-day Gyeonggi, Chungcheong, and Jeolla areas).
  • If Japan’s Ouchi Clan occupies the same territory.
The national tier of Baekje should be either equal to or lower than Goryeo. It would be appropriate to categorize Baekje as Ahistorical.
Tamna forming Baekje doesn't make sense. Baekje never integrated Jeju island as their core territory, although Tamna was a tributary at one time. Tamna was a tributary of Silla and Goryeo as well.
 
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Tamna forming Baekje doesn't make sense. Baekje never integrated Jeju island as their core territory, although Tamna was a tributary at one time. Tamna was a tributary of Silla and Goryeo as well.
I wrote 'Tamna,' but the only Korean-affiliated state I could think of with a lower tier than Goryeo was Tamna, so I wrote it that way. Looking at your previous post, I see that Ssangseong also exists. As you said, it certainly doesn't make sense for Ssangseong or Tamna to form Baekje.
 
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A lot of the Colonial nations will naturally be called that way and won't need to use the formable system. There's definitely a few good suggestions here that should be formables that we can add though.
Could you please tell what are those suggestions?
(asking for a friend from the Cossack Hetmanate)
 
FormabileLivelloRegola
Kingdom of Lombardy-Venetia2Astorico/Plausibile
Kingdom of Sardinia-piedmont2Plausibile
Kingdom of south (two sicilies + papal state)3Astorico/Plausibile
Tuscany2Historic
Shadow Kingdom(event of shadow kingdom if exist a italian country claim this instead Italy removing the imperial territory from Italy)3Astorico
Most serene repubblic of Genoa/venice3Astorico/Plausibile
Greater Roman empire (Byzantium + Roman empire)5/6Astorico
 
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It just seems too long winded with Éire agus (na) Breataine. And if the idea is that it is a Celtic state I think it should just be the endonym for The Celts in each languages, eg (na) Ceiltigh --> as Gaeilge
I think with the dash (as in Éire-Breataine) it would be preferable, and at least with Austria-Hungary there is similar precedence. I agree that Éire agus (na) Breataine is too long.

But I think yeah the idea of using the endonym (Ceiltigh, etc) would be a better option, especially as thinking about it more, the name of the "Great Britain" formable could also just be translated for the celtic-speaking tags, and so using a name like Ceiltigh helps differentiate the Celtic Britain+Ireland+Brittany formable from the Britain(+Ireland) formable.
 
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So it would actually be quite possible for an Anglo-Irish country to form England? Also would it be possible for one of the Christian kingdom of Sudan be able to form Egypt or even Ethiopia?
 
It's strange that I haven't seen any founding countries in the Chinese region. Here are my suggestions for establishing a country in China.
  • 鲁,Lu,grade:3
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Shandong Province
      • Is your culture Jiaolai or Qilu
    • Special situation: You start with Yansheng Sheng and are a descendant of Confucius,grade:4
  • 齐,Qi,grade:4
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Shandong Province
      • Is your culture Jiaolai or Qilu
  • 金,Jin,grade:4
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Manchuria Province
      • Is your culture Jurchen or Manchu
  • 清,Qing,grade:5
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Manchuria Province
      • Is your culture Jurchen or Manchu
    • Special conditions:You have taken over the tribute system and become the new core, declaring yourself the true China.
  • 晋,Jin,grade:4
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Shanxi Province
      • Is your culture Jinzhao
  • 秦,Qin,grade:4
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Shannxi Province
      • Is your culture Qinlong
  • 凉,Liang,grade:3
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Gansu Province
      • Is your culture Hexi
  • 邦泥顶/大高白国/西夏/弥药,Bangniding/DaGaoBai Kingdom/Xixia/Miyao,grade:3
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Gansu Province
      • Is your culture Tangut
    • Special situation: The name of your country will change according to your preference for that culture.
  • 福,Fu,grade:3
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You believe in Islam
  • 契丹/辽,Khitan/Liao,grade:4
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Liaoning Province
      • Is your culture Khitan
    • Special situation: The name of your country will change according to your preference for that culture.
  • 元,Yuan,grade:5
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • Is your culture Mongolian
      • You are a descendant of the Golden Family
    • Special conditions:The Yuan Dynasty has been destroyed and does not exist
  • 明,Ming,grade:5
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You are Zhu Yuanzhang
      • You are a member of the Red Turban Army and successfully overthrew the Yuan Dynasty
      • You are Han Linger and have escaped assassination. In the event, you chose to use your royal title as the national title.
    • Special situation: If you believe in Manichaeism, you can unlock missions to the Persian region. Manichaeism will be renamed Mingjiao
  • 顺,Shun,grade:4
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You are Li Zicheng
  • 西,Xi,grade:3
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You are Zhang Xianzhong
    • Special situation: If you successfully enter the Sichuan region, you will unlock the massacre mechanism, which can kill POPs on a large scale and accelerate cultural change.
  • 闯,Chuang,grade:3
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You are Gao Yingxiang
  • 宋,Song,grade:4
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You are a member of the Red Turban Army
      • You are a descendant of the royal family of the Song Dynasty
      • You are Han Linger
    • Special conditions:You are Emperor Shun of the Yuan Dynasty, and during the incident, you discovered your true identity as a member of the imperial family of the Song Dynasty. grade:5
  • 汉,Han,grade:5
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • Your surname is Liu
      • You started in Sichuan or Hanzhong
  • 蜀,Shu,grade:3
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You started in Sichuan
  • 巴,Ba,grade:2
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You started in Chongqing
  • 和,He,grade:4
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • Starting from Japan, it is Japanese culture that has unified Japan
    • Special conditions:You have taken over the tribute system and become the new core, declaring yourself the true China.
  • 韩,Han,grade:4
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from the Korean, you are Korean culture
    • Special conditions:You have taken over the tribute system and become the new core, declaring yourself the true China.
  • 越,Yue,grade:3
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Zhejiang Province
      • Is your culture Jiangnan
    • Special conditions:You are Vietnam,You have taken over the tribute system and become the new core, declaring yourself the true China. grade:4,change the country name to Viet
  • 闽,Min,grade:2
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Zhejiang Province
      • Is your culture Min or Hakkas
    • Special situation: You will unlock China's colonialism and spread it everywhere, paving the way for overseas colonization.
  • 粤,Yue,grade:2
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Guangdong or Guangxi Province
      • Is your culture Yue or Hakkas
At present, it is not complete, and I will continue to update it in the future.
I'd also add 趙 Zhao, 陳 Chen and 吳 Wu to that list just for variety, though I'm not sure what the conditions to form them would be.
 
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I think with the dash (as in Éire-Breataine) it would be preferable, and at least with Austria-Hungary there is similar precedence. I agree that Éire agus (na) Breataine is too long.

But I think yeah the idea of using the endonym (Ceiltigh, etc) would be a better option, especially as thinking about it more, the name of the "Great Britain" formable could also just be translated for the celtic-speaking tags, and so using a name like Ceiltigh helps differentiate the Celtic Britain+Ireland+Brittany formable from the Britain(+Ireland) formable.
Also as a pan-nationalist movement just naming it after these countries obviously seems a tad out of scope and most of them exclude Breizh. It's hard to name it as it is a ahistorical tag, and the divide in the Celtic Languages Brythonic and Goidelic make it hard to come to very sort of common word for us all. Which I think is was endonym for Celts for each language might be best. Saying that, Celtica is fine. Just feels very Latin to me which sort of feels wrong but as pointed out above a pan-celtic historian used this term too and if its good enough for him, good enough for me.
 
I'd also add 趙 Zhao, 陳 Chen and 吳 Wu to that list just for variety, though I'm not sure what the conditions to form them would be.
I am updating this list. It will be added later.
 
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2. Korea (Dai Han)​

The name Korea originates from Goryeo, but Goryeo did not unify the entire Korean Peninsula. Later, the Joseon Dynasty emerged and unified the peninsula, yet it would be more appropriate to retain the name Joseon for historical accuracy.

However, considering the historical precedent of the Empire of Korea (Dai Han) proclaimed in the late 19th century, a formable nation called Korea or Dai Han could be introduced. This nation would represent a higher-tier compared to Goryeo or Joseon and could be formed under the following conditions:
  • If it conquers Manchuria or parts of Japan.
  • If it undergoes specific reforms or modernization.
The appropriate classification for this nation would be Plausible.
I think if an independent country is called Dai Han, it may need to seize the "mandate of heaven" and declare itself as the true Chinese dynasty.
 
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Okay, I'm back. Going to present some more ideas I had for formable nations. A lot of this pulls from Victoria 3 and various nations that emerged or ideas of said nations. I might have more, so I'll come back later.

FormableTierNote
Cape1Plausible
Guatemala1Plausible
El Salvador1Plausible
Honduras1Plausible
Los Altos1Plausible
Nicaragua1Plausible
Costa Rica1Plausible
Panama1Plausible
Yucatan1Plausible
Chiapas1Plausible
Rio Grande2Plausible
New England2Plausible
Newfoundland2Plausible
Acadia/Maritime Union2Plausible
Bolivia/Charcas2Completely possible, became independent in 1825
Confederation of the Equator2Completely possible, revolted from Brazil in the 1820s
Brazil3Completely possible, gained independence in 1821
Pernambuco1Completely possible, revolted from Brazil in 1817
Rio Grande Do Sul2Completely possible, revolted from Brazil in 1835
Grão-Pará2Completely possible, revolted from Brazil in 1835
Ecuador2Completely possible, gained independence in 1831
Uruguay/Cisplatina1Completely possible, first existed in 1815, then gained independence in 1828
Caucasian Imamate2Completely possible, existed in the 1800s
Yorubaland2Plausible
Illyria3Plausible
Akanman2Plausible
Oromia2Plausible
Lombardy1Plausible
Lombardy-Venetia2Plausible
Uswahilini3Plausible (it's a unifier for the Swahili states)
 
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Would it be possible for (some) formable nations to choose from a list of names? Like how in EU4, Malaya can choose between one of four different names. Something like Yamato/Japan/Nippon, Great Britain/United Kingdom, Malaya/Nusantara, Spain/Hispania/Lusitania, etc. Plus maybe a game rule to disable the extra/ahistorical names for the AI or for all nations.
great idea
 
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Turán, for Turks and Magyars (Tier V, ahistorical)

Requirements could be: own a very high percentage of the land between Hungary and Mongolia
The formation could establish a culture group between the cultures associated with the obsolete hypothetical Turanian languages.
 
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Will "vassal" countries be able to form nations, without being independent? For me it's one of the most annoying things when playing eu4, idk how everyone else feels about it
Random idea: what if you were able to "force" your subjects to form nations (aka click the button yourself), but they couldn't do it by themselves? maybe that would be a good compromise?
 
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Unfortunate that Rûm and IlKhaganate are the same tier, I was looking forward to a campaign as the Karamanids or Eretnids and forming both.
 
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