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Tinto Talks #50 - 12th February 2025

Hey everyone, and welcome back. Johan is busy today (allegedly) so instead I will walk you through this Tinto Talks on Formable Countries in our little project called Caesar. It’s a fairly tight feature so this should be nice and quick.



What are Formable Countries?

Basically, formable countries are new tags that you can switch to. Typically they represent historical unions and conquests, but some represent aspirations that never materialised.

Generally speaking, the vision behind Formables is to offer roleplaying and historical immersion, and support player fantasies, rather than modifier stacking. They will change your country name, national flag, and map color. So while you may unlock some content such as advances or other minor unique content, the tag change is often the goal in itself.

Screenshot 2025-02-12 113332.png
Screenshot 2025-02-12 112612.png

Spain gets some unique advances in the later ages, but not all do.

Rather than your country changing automatically every age, you achieve it by completing certain objectives. Usually, you'll need to control a certain percentage of a predefined set of locations, for example Scandinavia needs 75% of the locations in the Scandinavia region.

There’s typically additional requirements as well such as your Primary Culture belonging to a certain Culture Group. Forming Spain also requires you and all the independent countries in Iberia to be Christian, as it is thematically closely tied to the completion of the Reconquista. Iberian Muslims have the reverse rules for forming Al-Andalus.

Some are directly tied to actions in International Organizations, like the Holy Roman Empire or the Ilkhanate.

Formables also have a Tier that represents their natural order of precedence. You can only form countries that are the same or higher tier than you. For example, England (Tier 2) can form Great Britain (Tier 3) but Great Britain can’t form England. The AI will only form countries that are a higher tier.


Screenshot 2025-02-12 124554.png

Country formation is just a click away.


There are 3 settings to the relevant game rule.
  1. Only Historical Formable Countries
    1. Only countries that actually formed in the game’s time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Spain and Great Britain
  2. Allow Plausible Formable Countries(Default)
    1. Countries that could plausible have formed, or formed just after the time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Germany and Italy
  3. Allow Ahistorical Formable Countries
    1. Aspirational or fantasy countries can be formed. Examples include
      1. North Sea Empire (which is a Tier IV) if you control Britain and Scandinavia
      2. Europa (Tier V)



Screenshot 2025-02-12 121247.png

Some countries have different flags depending on the exact manner in which they are formed. For example this variant of the Union Jack with a dominant saltire when you start as Scotland.


1739361227786.png

And some formables come with little treats to sweeten the deal.


Screenshot 2025-02-12 123920.png

The Teutonic Order has a long way to go before they can become Prussia…


Screenshot 2025-02-12 124144.png

But it might be worth it…


Screenshot 2025-02-12 121702.png

Some exist to fulfil common player fantasies, but only appear if the player chooses in the Game Rules to have the less historical ones.



This is our current list of formable countries, let us know which ones you would like us add!

FormableTierNote
Europa5Ahistorical
Rome4Ahistorical
Hindustan4Plausible
Holy Roman Empire4Plausible
Byzantium4
Ilkhanate4
Iran4
Mongolia4
Mughals4
Rûm4
Russia4
United States4
Celtica3Ahistorical
Latin Empire3Ahistorical
North Sea3Ahistorical
Al-Andalus3Plausible
Arabia3Plausible
Canada3Plausible
Egypt3Plausible
Germany3Plausible
Italy3Plausible
Malaya3Plausible
Ruthenia3Plausible
Scandinavia3Plausible
Shan3Plausible
Banten3
Bengal3
Deccan3
Delhi3
Ethiopia3
Great Britain3
Gujurat3
Hausa3
Inca3
Kongo3
Manchu3
Maratha3
Mexico3
Poland-Lithuania3
Punjab3
Rajput3
Siam3
Sokoto3
Spain3
Timurids3
Two Sicilies3
Yamato3
Africa2Ahistorical
Carthage2Ahistorical
Hen Ogledd2Ahistorical
Aotearoa2Plausible
Greece2Plausible
Jerusalem2Plausible
Livonia2Plausible
Maya2Plausible
Albania2
Armenia2
Austria2
Ayutthaya2
Bahamis2
England2
Georgia2
Golden Horde2
Holstein2
Ireland2
Navarre2
Nepal2
Netherlands2
Poland2
Prussia2
Scotland2
Serbia2
Sweden2
Switzerland2
Tibet2
Wales2
Connacht1Plausible
Ulster1Plausible
Aïr1
Bavaria1
Beja1
Mazovia1
Mecklenburg1
Mossi1
Nassau1
Northumbria1
Pomerania1
Sardinia1
Saxony1
Silesia1


That's it for today's dev diary. Thanks for reading, and we'll see you next time, where we will talk about Subject Types, and an interesting part of the Castilian player fantasy…
 
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A UK tag representing the Union of Great Britain and Ireland could be interesting, especially since Ireland was for most of the game's time period in personal union with England and later Great Britain.
 
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I do believe Austria-Hungary should be in there as a "plausible" formable.

The Magyars had never been happy about suddenly being incorporated into this newfangled "Austrian" Empire Franz I had inventend in 1804. As far as they were concerned, Hungary was an independent kingdom that happened to be in personal union with other Habsburg domains and the King of Hungary did not have the right to integrate it into a larger entity.

Now with Metternich in charge such sentiments were of course ruthlessly suppressed, but once the Metternich system weakened the issue quickly came to the forefront. It was a big driver in the Hungarian Revolt of 1848/49. IRL this revolt was crushed with Russian aid, but that did not resolve the issue and the Habsburgs eventually had to give in and accept the Compromise of 1866.

And while 1848 and 1866 are of course beyond the time period of the game there is no particular reason why a similar chain of events could not play out 30-40 years earlier. Maybe there is no Metternich or the Metternich system fails earlier. Maybe there is no Russian aid avaiable and the revolt is more successful and there is a negotiated settlement. Maybe an Austrian ruler sees the writing on the wall and makes a compromise before things get out of hand.

All of these could lead to an Austro-Hungarian Empire forming before the game ends.
I disagree. Austria-Hungary was never a real aspiration, but rather a compromise. It's a step down for Austria and not enough for an autonomy-seeking Hungary. Austria-Hungary is already covered by the PU system explained a few TTs ago. If anything, it could be a possibility for a weakened (unified) Austria that owns the Carpathian Basin to revert to a PU with a strong reemerged Hungary as junior partner via event to somewhat portray what happened in the 1860s.
 
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Not a fan of Europa as a tag. I feel it "legitimizes" something like a continent-conquest a bit too much. IDK it's hard to explain but it turns something like that into something that seems intended to be done, when I feel it shouldn't be. Should it be possible? Sure(though extremely, extremely difficult). But the existence of the tag makes it something you can do for fun into something "intended".

Also not a fan of a lot of peoples proposals for like, pan-slavic states or pan-much of anything. Nationalism is the realm of Vicky 3, not EU.
 
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Just a "few" suggestions.

Ahistoricals:
Xšāça as an ahistorical tier 5 formable for Achaemenid larping and an endgame for Iran.
Hattusa - "easter egg" like formable as I imagine Carthage is. Something fun to do when you get bored of Rum, Byzantium or Armenia as an Anatolian.
Babylon - "Easter egg" like formable for Iraq region (you can repeat the Vicky 2 joke without the context of the time!)
Scythia - formable for Alanians, Jasz, and any other Iranic steppe peoples (or near steppe for Khwarazmians). Imagine requires x% of the old Scythian-Saka steppe. Perhaps Crimea and Dnieper river region required for the Royal Scythian land?
Gaul - imagine Celtica is covering a similar theme, but perhaps as an alternative for Bretons and (larping) French only?
Makedon - if we have Rome and Carthage already, we may as well add in more classical larping. Would also give an alternate route for Byzantium/Greek countries to conquering the old Roman borders.
Gothia - formable for Theodoro in tribute to the EuIV missions.
Albania - the one in the Caucasus, for EuIV achievement references
Iberia - the one in the Caucasus, for EuIV achievement references
Slavia - might be a bit controversial due to certain events going on today, but it would give an end-tag formable for western and southern as well as eastern Slavs.

Ahistorical/arguably plausible:
Sogdia - formable for Iranic Tajiki and Yaghnobi pops (hope you have included the latter, though at this point perhaps should just be called Sogdians still) instead of Turkestan - for Eastern Central Asia.
Khwarazm - not entirely clear but I think Iranic Khwarazmians still existed in by 1300s so can be a western Asian formation for them. Khwarazmian Turkic Empire was also only destroyed approximately 100 years ago so could also be an option for them.


Plausible:
Jagiellonian Empire - formable for the union of the countries the Jagiellonians would historically hold - Lithuania, Poland, Bohemia and Hungary. Gives Lithuania/Poland something to work for.
Bharat - name and flag change of Hindustan for forming India as a Hindu, Jain or Buddhist.
Iberia - union of Spain with Portugal
Turkestan - formable for Turkish pops in Central Asia (Ubzekistan, Turkmenistan area)
Occitania - formable for Occitan (and maybe Catalan) pops as an alternative to French or Spanish domination.
Assyria - for the Assyrian pops of the Levant - not for larping as Ashurbaniapli but I wouldn't say no to that too.
Kurdistan - alternative to forming a caliphate or Iran as the Kurds.
Romania - not sure if you just missed putting this one on but didn't see it in the list. I would also add, I think the Romanians (maybe the Serbs and Bulgarians too if they conquer it) should be able to form Byzantium if they take Constantinople and the core of Greece and maybe Western Anatolia. Could be an alternate version where you just assume the name for legitimacy I suppose if want to keep Byzantine flavour separate?
Mazandaran - low tier formable for the Mazanderanis and other Caspian sea Iranians.

Historical:
Afghanistan (Durrani Empire) - formable for the Pashto to represent the Durrani Empire (crossover with Plausible for 19th century Emirate of Afghanistan)

Question:
Africa - is this just Roman province of Africa? Since surely if it is the whole continent it should be tier 5 like Europa?
 
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I would like to suggest adding "Himwant" both as an area and a tier 3 formable consisting of Punjab Hills, Kangra, Garhwal, Kumaon and Doti. This was plausible if any of these underwent Gorkha-like or Garhwal-like expansion and these states had the desire to conquer these regions, espescially Kangra, Garhwal and Kumaon.
 
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Not a fan of Europa as a tag. I feel it "legitimizes" something like a continent-conquest a bit too much. IDK it's hard to explain but it turns something like that into something that seems intended to be done, when I feel it shouldn't be. Should it be possible? Sure(though extremely, extremely difficult). But the existence of the tag makes it something you can do for fun into something "intended".

Also not a fan of a lot of peoples proposals for like, pan-slavic states or pan-much of anything. Nationalism is the realm of Vicky 3, not EU.
In my opinion it's fine to have them, as long as they are considered more like easter eggs rather than an end-game goal/aspiration (so maybe they don't even show up in game as a decision/button to press if you haven't already done 99% of the requirements)
 
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Is it possible in this game to switch name/flag without changing tag? If so, I think that this is a more fitting solution to some of the formables suggested in this thread, especially when these "formables" are only achievable by one nation or historically weren't considered as a new nation (with e.g. new constitution etc.) but rather as a continuation. This approach could (depending on the exact implementation of formables in Project Caesar) also alleviate the problem of some EU4 formables not having a "legacy" (no difference depending on who formed it/forming it always feels the same etc.).
 
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Is it possible in this game to switch name/flag in this game without changing tag? If so, I think that this is a more fitting solution to some of the formables suggested in this thread, especially when these "formables" are only achievable by one nation or historically weren't considered as a new nation (with e.g. new constitution etc.) but rather as a continuation. This approach could (depending on the exact way it works in Project Caesar) also alleviate the problem of some EU4 formables not having a "legacy" (no difference depending on who formed it/forming it always feels the same etc.).
I don't think they have outright said, but it is heavily implied. They showed an alternate Great Britain flag in the DD for Scotland dominated, but it came across as it was the same tag. Byzantium can be called Rome from the start in game rules, so different names must also be possible.
 
Bulgaria a few decades after the start of the timeframe splits into three smaller countries - Tsardom of Turnovo, Tsardom of Vidin and the Despotate of Karvuna. Perhaps a planned disaster event can be flavoured into Bulgaria and thus turn it into a (re)formable nation.

Furthermore, both Bulgaria, and especially Serbia at the current start date have coveted the throne of Eastern Rome and both have had rulers styled as Emperors of the Romans, aside from their own peoples. To quote wikipedia "In the 14th century, as the Byzantine Empire weakened, Tarnovo claimed to be the Third Rome, based on its preeminent cultural influence in Southeastern Europe"

A formable Bulgaro-Roman or Serbo-Roman larger state (or perhaps even a merger of three) was definitely in the realm of historical plausibility during the 14th century. The dynasties and aristocracies of these three states were heavily intermingled e.g. - Asen, Kantakouzenos, Sratsimir, Nemanjic and Palaiologos. One of the last rulers of Corinth before it fell to the Ottomans was Matthew Palaiologos Asen, a descendant of both the Bulgaria Asen Royal dynasty (of which the current in-game Bulgarian dynasty Sratsimir also was descendant from) and the Palaiologoi. Stefan Dusan, the Tsar of Serbia at this start date, to give a further example, had a Bulgarian mother - Theodora who in turn was the daughter of Smiletsina Palaiologina - niece of Emperor Michael VIII Palaiologos. Stefan Dusan himself would marry Helena of Bulgaria - the sister of Tsar Ivan Alexander - the Bulgaria ruler at the start date. Aside from the aristocartic ties, do I even need to mention the cultural and religious-Orthodox relationships. All of these combined make a very solid-case for a formable state from these three pre-Ottoman Conquest neighbours.
 
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The concept of pan-Celticism is a modern one so it will be hard to find a single name that works perfectly in the historical context. But the name "Celtica" does have some currency as it was coined by pan-Celticist historian Peter Berresford Ellis to discuss his proposed Celtic nation and has been used by others since.
Honestly I just kind of dislike meme-formables like this. I get that it's in the "ahistorical" camp but even the idea that if say an Irish kingdom or Welsh kingdom was able to conquer the isles and unify all the "celts"(not that I think the Welsh and Irish would have had much love lost between them at the time) the idea that they'd call themselves "Celtica" is just lame. Or that they'd call themselves anything but Ireland(Eire)/Wales(Cymru) for that matter. I think I just don't like silly formables honestly, maybe it's just me.

At the very least, I would like a general standard that anything that isn't at least "Plausible" should not get an achievement tied to it. I can already envision annoying youtubers coming up with "I GOT THE FORM EUROPA ACHIEVEMENT IN 20 IN GAME YEARS" videos, and it will lead to unnecessary acceleration of the search for exploits as people try and form these meme nations and unions.

It's strange that I haven't seen any founding countries in the Chinese region. Here are my suggestions for establishing a country in China.
  • 鲁,Lu,grade:3
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Shandong Province
      • Is your culture Jiaolai or Qilu
    • Special situation: You start with Yansheng Sheng and are a descendant of Confucius,grade:4
  • 齐,Qi,grade:4
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Shandong Province
      • Is your culture Jiaolai or Qilu
  • 金,Jin,grade:4
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Manchuria Province
      • Is your culture Jurchen or Manchu
  • 清,Qing,grade:5
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Manchuria Province
      • Is your culture Jurchen or Manchu
    • Special conditions:You have taken over the tribute system and become the new core, declaring yourself the true China.
  • 晋,Jin,grade:4
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Shanxi Province
      • Is your culture Jinzhao
  • 秦,Qin,grade:4
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Shannxi Province
      • Is your culture Qinlong
  • 凉,Liang,grade:3
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Gansu Province
      • Is your culture Hexi
  • 邦泥顶/大高白国/西夏/弥药,Bangniding/DaGaoBai Kingdom/Xixia/Miyao,grade:3
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Gansu Province
      • Is your culture Tangut
    • Special situation: The name of your country will change according to your preference for that culture.
  • 福,Fu,grade:3
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You believe in Islam
  • 契丹/辽,Khitan/Liao,grade:4
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Liaoning Province
      • Is your culture Khitan
    • Special situation: The name of your country will change according to your preference for that culture.
  • 元,Yuan,grade:5
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • Is your culture Mongolian
      • You are a descendant of the Golden Family
    • Special conditions:The Yuan Dynasty has been destroyed and does not exist
  • 明,Ming,grade:5
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You are Zhu Yuanzhang
      • You are a member of the Red Turban Army and successfully overthrew the Yuan Dynasty
      • You are Han Linger and have escaped assassination. In the event, you chose to use your royal title as the national title.
    • Special situation: If you believe in Manichaeism, you can unlock missions to the Persian region. Manichaeism will be renamed Mingjiao
  • 顺,Shun,grade:4
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You are Li Zicheng
  • 西,Xi,grade:3
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You are Zhang Xianzhong
    • Special situation: If you successfully enter the Sichuan region, you will unlock the massacre mechanism, which can kill POPs on a large scale and accelerate cultural change.
  • 闯,Chuang,grade:3
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You are Gao Yingxiang
  • 宋,Song,grade:4
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You are a member of the Red Turban Army
      • You are a descendant of the royal family of the Song Dynasty
      • You are Han Linger
    • Special conditions:You are Emperor Shun of the Yuan Dynasty, and during the incident, you discovered your true identity as a member of the imperial family of the Song Dynasty. grade:5
  • 汉,Han,grade:5
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • Your surname is Liu
      • You started in Sichuan or Hanzhong
  • 蜀,Shu,grade:3
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You started in Sichuan
  • 巴,Ba,grade:2
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You started in Chongqing
  • 和,He,grade:4
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • Starting from Japan, it is Japanese culture that has unified Japan
    • Special conditions:You have taken over the tribute system and become the new core, declaring yourself the true China.
  • 韩,Han,grade:4
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from the Korean, you are Korean culture
    • Special conditions:You have taken over the tribute system and become the new core, declaring yourself the true China.
  • 越,Yue,grade:3
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Zhejiang Province
      • Is your culture Jiangnan
    • Special conditions:You are Vietnam,You have taken over the tribute system and become the new core, declaring yourself the true China. grade:4,change the country name to Viet
  • 闽,Min,grade:2
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Zhejiang Province
      • Is your culture Min or Hakkas
    • Special situation: You will unlock China's colonialism and spread it everywhere, paving the way for overseas colonization.
  • 粤,Yue,grade:2
    • If one of the following conditions is met, it is sufficient
      • You start from Guangdong or Guangxi Province
      • Is your culture Yue or Hakkas
At present, it is not complete, and I will continue to update it in the future.
Awesome list! Main things I'd add would be Wu and Chu off the top of my head. Also as a note for your translation, "Han Linger" should be "Han Lin'er"(Hán Línér with diacritics).
 
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Honestly I just kind of dislike meme-formables like this. I get that it's in the "ahistorical" camp but even the idea that if say an Irish kingdom or Welsh kingdom was able to conquer the isles and unify all the "celts"(not that I think the Welsh and Irish would have had much love lost between them at the time) the idea that they'd call themselves "Celtica" is just lame. Or that they'd call themselves anything but Ireland(Eire)/Wales(Cymru) for that matter. I think I just don't like silly formables honestly, maybe it's just me.

At the very least, I would like a general standard that anything that isn't at least "Plausible" should not get an achievement tied to it. I can already envision annoying youtubers coming up with "I GOT THE FORM EUROPA ACHIEVEMENT IN 20 IN GAME YEARS" videos, and it will lead to unnecessary acceleration of the search for exploits as people try and form these meme nations and unions.


Awesome list! Main things I'd add would be Wu and Chu off the top of my head. Also as a note for your translation, "Han Linger" should be "Han Lin'er"(Hán Línér with diacritics).
An achievement for them doesn't really matter. There will be many forming Rome in x years videos with or without them. I'd be surprised if it makes a difference at all
 
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Awesome list! Main things I'd add would be Wu and Chu off the top of my head. Also as a note for your translation, "Han Linger" should be "Han Lin'er"(Hán Línér with diacritics).
I don't know how to input phonetic symbols, and the translator cannot convert them.
I am editing more kingdoms to extend this list and hope to give them a unique flavor.